Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State? | Page 15 | The Boneyard

Why no talk of death penalty for Penn State?

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Not sure. ESPN could play the morbid curiosity angle, and people are also really stupid in general.


But the unofficial scorn simply isn't enough. But this school should not be allowed to live this down any time soon.


brasssbonanzaa said:
I don't think they'll do nothing. I think first, they're going to let the legal system run its course with the administrators, assessing a penalty before the trials of those people are done would be incorrect. In the meantime, I think they're going to investigate this into the ground to find every little possible detail they can find that could potentially be a violation, since they'll be under harsh public pressure to do something. The main things I think they'll look for is whether players/recruits knew, if there was money paid to them (or anyone) to keep quiet, whether this leaked into the academic side of things, if professors knew, etc. I would say if there is a financial element that is uncovered here, yes, a death penalty is quite likely. If there is not, I think they'll enforce some kind of punishment, probably on a loose interpretation of the lack of institutional control rule, but I don't know that it will involve the death penalty, since the precedent for using that is really tied to improper use of money, though that could be changed. That said, make no mistake, Penn State will be indirectly punished extraordinarily hard by this whole scandal through recruiting, scheduling, and TV. Do you think ESPN and the like are chomping at the bit to televise Penn State games? Do you think schools are lining up to schedule series' with PSU? Do you think big time recruits want to be anywhere near this program right now?
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I can't keep doing this.

THe culture of Penn state is at fault here. The clown at CBS wrote a piece today that the entire culture of college football is at fault, what frigging nincompoop looking for publicity, reckless.

I guarantee that PSU people will latch onto that with everythign they've got...if we're going to get punished, all of college football should be punished. Upstater already hinted at here by deflecting quesstions to "don't you guys know that all D1 programs are fiefdoms?

No, not all D1 programs are fiefdoms, and certainly not all D1 programs would willingly decide to cover up a serial child rapist to protect the image of their football program. But the fact that one would, only one - would -, is enough that the governing structure of division 1 football needs to change it's mode of operation, and bring down the hammer.

So that the risk / benefit analysis, as eloquently presented by others here, is never out of proportion again.
 
freescooter said:
Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.
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It's like when 3 wise guys devise a plan.....then bring it to the mob boss who poo poo's the plan and comes up with his own......and now everyone is on the same page. His page.
 
freescooter said:
Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.
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Upstater didn't respond to my comment about it earlier. But I don't believe he's had the courage to actually read the full report.
 
freescooter said:
Oh come on upstater...there are really really damning things in that report. It is pretty clear that nobody was willing to stand up to Joe when he didn't want the autorities contacted. Just like when he didn't want the football program to be bothered with a little thing like a mandated program on how to identify sexual abuse (and this i believe was AFTER Sanduky's initial investigation for the 1998 incident) or lots of other things. This was a case of a legendary coach over-ruling his "superiors" and those superiors lacking the guts to stand up to him and do the right thing. You're right in a sense that the entire leadership was a mess. But the president, the Ad and The VP all took their marchin gorders form Joe Paterno on this.
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You realize that Spanier overruled Paterno on football many times? B10 channel they had a falling out on that one. Paterno wanted to veto it. You think Spanier and he had a chummy relationship? Spanier knocked heads with him multiple times and won. On football matters. Yes, he did show up at Paterno's door asking for his resignation in 2005, and yes Paterno duped him that time. But he ws still the President.

There is no doubt Paterno ruled the football program like a fiefdom. I never believed otherwise long before this story broke. But you're trying to tell me Paterno had a mindmeld on the university president? No way. And beyond that, you can see a consistent pattern of Spanier playing CYA with OTHER abuse allegations.

I can't see how you can possibly read that email by Spanier in response to Curley and say that he was being lead by the chin by Paterno. My god, Spanier even so much as said he thought the plan was reasonable, and that they should be "humane" to Sandusky, and beyond that, he even expressed his own concerns about legal liabilities!!! Beyond that, in none of these emails, as Freeh himself has even said, was there ever ANY concern shown about the children and victims themselves. When offered the name of the child in the shower in 2001, Curley said he didn't want to know it. This should tell you EVERYTHING about the mindset of these four men. Hard to believe that Paterno overruled anyone given the context of ALL the emails and all the information.
 
Carl Spackler said:
I can't keep doing this.

THe culture of Penn state is at fault here. The clown at CBS wrote a piece today that the entire culture of college football is at fault, what frigging nincompoop looking for publicity, reckless.

I guarantee that PSU people will latch onto that with everythign they've got...if we're going to get punished, all of college football should be punished. Upstater already hinted at here by deflecting quesstions to "don't you guys know that all D1 programs are fiefdoms?

No, not all D1 programs are fiefdoms, and certainly not all D1 programs would willingly decide to cover up a serial child rapist to protect the image of their football program. But the fact that one would, only one - would -, is enough that the governing structure of division 1 football needs to change it's mode of operation, and bring down the hammer.

So that the risk / benefit analysis, as eloquently presented by others here, is never out of proportion again.
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You're totally naive.
 
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ZooCougar said:
Not sure. ESPN could play the morbid curiosity angle, and people are also really stupid in general.


But the unofficial scorn simply isn't enough. But this school should not be allowed to live this down any time soon.
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Sure, and they won't be living this down anytime soon, this will be in people's minds for a long, long time. The words "Penn State" are extremely toxic, and it will likely turn into a widely used term to describe institutional coverup, among other things. My only point is, in addition to any possible specific NCAA penalties, the school and football program will also suffer extraordinarily indirectly from this.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Upstater didn't respond to my comment about it earlier. But I don't believe he's had the courage to actually read the full report.
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Courage to read a report? You are a legend in your own mind.
 
upstater said:
Courage to read a report? You are a legend in your own mind.
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Maybe so. But unlike Joe Paterno, who was also a legend in his own mind, I would have handled Jerry Sandusky differently.
 
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brasssbonanzaa said:
Sure, and they won't be living this down anytime soon, this will be in people's minds for a long, long time. The words "Penn State" are extremely toxic, and it will likely turn into a widely used term to describe institutional coverup, among other things. My only point is, in addition to any possible specific NCAA penalties, the school and football program will also suffer extraordinarily indirectly from this.
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One can certainly hope that to be the case.
 
upstater said:
I've answered that multiple times. READ.
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I apologize, I don't want to go back, you don't seem to understand that the death penalty for a football program (related to what happened to SMU) is pretty much exactly what I said when I said that the football program should be shut down for a year...that actually raised a flag for me? Are you a football person? How old are you? Do you remember when SMU got shut down? Did you care when it happened? Personal stuff - don't really care to know, but questions that rolled through my mind....

moving on..

can you please, (and clearly am I asking you to do somethign you've noted you've already done, but can you please one more time (and I promise - I won't post another thign on this thread (today ) if you do)

tell me in single statement, what you feel would be adequate punishment for PSU, given the information that is public today.
 
I disagree on one major issue with a couple of posters. I do not think the NCAA, Penn State or the Big 10 should wait for the civil trials before imposing a penalty. I think they should do it by year end. The civil trials could take years.

The punishment needs to be so severe that no school will ever cover up illegal behavior ever again in order to protect an athletic program.
 
upstater said:
You realize that Spanier overruled Paterno on football many times? B10 channel they had a falling out on that one. Paterno wanted to veto it. You think Spanier and he had a chummy relationship? Spanier knocked heads with him multiple times and won. On football matters. Yes, he did show up at Paterno's door asking for his resignation in 2005, and yes Paterno duped him that time. But he ws still the President.

There is no doubt Paterno ruled the football program like a fiefdom. I never believed otherwise long before this story broke. But you're trying to tell me Paterno had a mindmeld on the university president? No way. And beyond that, you can see a consistent pattern of Spanier playing CYA with OTHER abuse allegations.

I can't see how you can possibly read that email by Spanier in response to Curley and say that he was being lead by the chin by Paterno. My god, Spanier even so much as said he thought the plan was reasonable, and that they should be "humane" to Sandusky, and beyond that, he even expressed his own concerns about legal liabilities!!! Beyond that, in none of these emails, as Freeh himself has even said, was there ever ANY concern shown about the children and victims themselves. When offered the name of the child in the shower in 2001, Curley said he didn't want to know it. This should tell you EVERYTHING about the mindset of these four men. Hard to believe that Paterno overruled anyone given the context of ALL the emails and all the information.
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Still looking for a fall guy. Anybody but Paterno.
 
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upstater said:
Naive to think football coaches don't rule the roost in athletic departments.
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my lord, upstater. your continued thoughts put into words about all of this page after page, are the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Penn State. It's shocking and disturbing that you can't see it.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I disagree on one major issue with a couple of posters. I do not think the NCAA, Penn State or the Big 10 should wait for the civil trials before imposing a penalty. I think they should do it by year end. The civil trials could take years.

The punishment needs to be so severe that no school will ever cover up illegal behavior ever again in order to protect an athletic program.
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I agree that swift punishment is warranted. The question is from where. My opinion is that the only institution that holds any power right now to impose significant damage to Penn State because damage is what's required to cahnge the culture IMNSHO, is the big 10 conference and Jim Delaney.
 
Carl, I've answered you multiple times. Multiple times. I don't know why you don't read it. Can't help you. I'm on page 44 right now, I see my repeated post about punishment on #393, #398,and multiple ones from earlier today.

The bizarre thing is that in posts #370 and #330, you responded to what I stated the punishment should be, and either you are really losing it, or you are deliberately playing games.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Still looking for a fall guy. Anybody but Paterno.
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Still twisting my words. Everyone else but you and Nelson has understood that I believe Paterno is to blame and this destroys his reputation. I just don't think Paterno overruled Spanier. I think you're crazy for believing so.
 
Carl Spackler said:
my lord, upstater. your continued thoughts put into words about all of this page after page, are the embodiment of everything that is wrong with Penn State. It's shocking and disturbing that you can't see it.
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You are really naive.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I disagree on one major issue with a couple of posters. I do not think the NCAA, Penn State or the Big 10 should wait for the civil trials before imposing a penalty. I think they should do it by year end. The civil trials could take years.

The punishment needs to be so severe that no school will ever cover up illegal behavior ever again in order to protect an athletic program.
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I'm not saying civil trials, I'm talking criminal. They certainly weren't going to touch this before the Sandusky trial, but I suspect they may wait until criminal trials against administrators take place. They may not.
 
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upstater said:
Carl, I've answered you multiple times. Multiple times. I don't know why you don't read it. Can't help you. I'm on page 44 right now, I see my repeated post about punishment on #393, #398,and multiple ones from earlier today.

The bizarre thing is that in posts #370 and #330, you responded to what I stated the punishment should be, and either you are really losing it, or you are deliberately playing games.
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I disagree with you. What more needs to be said? Frankly, I've stated my position on this thread and stuck to it.

You, meanwhile, are all over the place. From death penalty, to 1 year off. I can't figure out what you even stand for anymore.

Suffice it to say we disagree on death penalty and also the nature of the cover-up. I agree with the Freeh report, and have been stating so for quite awhile now.

I don't even know what else is in dispute.

Let me make this clear once and for all:

1. I agree punishment is warranted
2. Don't agree on death penalty
3. Agree on cover-up
4. Don't agree on motives, but I'm open to it and think it's arguable/up in the air.

Otherwise, I really have absolutely no idea what you're going on about.


upstater, Today at 3:28 PMReport

#393



Stated it repeatedly in this thread. Stated it at the start, stated it a few weeks ago with the emails, stated it again and again.

I don't think any of it is appropriate or logical because what happened so outweighs concerns with extracurricular sports. But that being said, I think shutting down football for one year can be done out of moral opprobrium. As for propriety, that's a different story. Like I said, I don't really care. I tend to think this is a problem of PSU's administrative culture. The top guys like Spanier and Schultz were in CYA mode because of concern with potential liabilities. Whereas Paterno was more concerned with Sandusky's well-being. How do you ameliorate that except by firing all concerned, cleaning house, then re-writing rules? (To make sure it never happens again? No, that's not possible. But to try harder at making it not happen again). What to do with the football program is so secondary and frankly not important.


upstater, Today at 3:37 PMReport

#398



You simply don't believe that Joe Paterno did not want his football program tarnished in any way, and that is the single reason that Jerry Sandusky was still abusing boys in the shower room in teh same building where Joe Paterno's offices were for years.

You will use every bit of your ability to find nooks and crannies in information, in peoples actions, to get around that and find ways to make it comfortable for you, that it wasn't the case. You'll say, and you have, that Joe Paterno's image is forever tarnished now. Administration, rules....blah blah blah.

The fact is that all of the crimes Sandusky has been convicted of, occurred AFTER Paterno knew about this man's behavior. What's most disturbing to me right now, is finding out today that Paterno - never talked to Sandusky directly about it in 1998.

I'm done w/ you upstater. You disappoint me, and you are representative of Penn State. Trust me on this, or don't, whatever....if Penn State was doing the right things, simply saying the right things, and backing them up with actions, now, there would be no need for the punishment they will surely get and no need to penalize the football program severely. And that school is going to get punished.

Over and out for today.

(Don't place bets Jimmy. It's for real. )
 
The NCAA should be doing something before the end of the month, before they can start practice, preferably with enough time for players to transfer should they choose to do so.
 
ZooCougar said:
The NCAA should be doing something before the end of the month, before they can start practice, preferably with enough time for players to transfer should they choose to do so.
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The NCAA will harshly penalize Lehigh for Penn State's transgressions. That should put Penn State on notice.
 
You simply don't believe that Joe Paterno did not want his football program tarnished in any way
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Even though my post just above yours says Paterno's reputation is stained and ruined. Uh-huh. That blows your credibility right out of the water in the very first line.

Seriously, you either need new glasses or your are delusional.
 
Palatine said:
The NCAA will harshly penalize Lehigh for Penn State's transgressions. That should put Penn State on notice.
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MAC schools are feverishly checking the font sizes and margins on their compliance filings to make sure they are NCAA approved.
 
I wonder what Phil Knight, after embarassing himself at Paterno's memorial service, has to say about his hero today?
 
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