Tweets from Practice

[mauconnfan]

Let's not perpetuate that meme. We all know that where a guy gets drafted, and if he's succeeding in the league, doesn't necessarily have much to do with how successful he was as a college player.

True no doubt but his inconsistent play was telling of what his future was in basketball and if you didn't see it then you weren't watching. Hands weren't good at all, back-to-the-basket game was eh and he rebounded some nights and not others. I would have said this that year and did so this isn't because of the so-called "hate" I have it's reality. I have no issue with anyone saying he was 2nd to Kemba he could very well have been, so could Jeremy and Bazz and Roscoe were close. The distance kemba had on everyone left 2nd wide open.

 

[ctchamps]

True no doubt but his inconsistent play was telling of what his future was in basketball and if you didn't see it then you weren't watching. Hands weren't good at all, back-to-the-basket game was eh and he rebounded some nights and not others. I would have said this that year and did so this isn't because of the so-called "hate" I have it's reality. I have no issue with anyone saying he was 2nd to Kemba he could very well have been, so could Jeremy and Bazz and Roscoe were close. The distance kemba had on everyone left 2nd wide open.

People are dismissing your critiquing of his play because of some of your more vitriolic posts towards AO. That dismissal is silly. Imo they should separate your emotional feelings about the way AO handled himself his last season and during his transfer, from the critiques you are presenting about his play. They cry foul saying your feelings towards AO are clouding your judgement, and yet that is what some of them are doing with you regarding this issue. Otherwise they would notice that your tone has changed dramatically.

And yes you did mention the weakness in AO's game during the championship season well before AO demonstrated poor character choices. In addition to your list in this post you and others, including myself, felt he was poor at defending pick and rolls, had poor foot speed, and really struggled with certain centers who could easily shoot over him (no timing in challenging shots). He was very good at getting rebounds in certain games, but as you point out, he made DeAndre look like Mr. Consistent. He would plead for fouls as the other team began their transition to offense and he had that hitch along giddy up that slowed his ability to get back on defense.

And with all that list, we both acknowledged that without AO's stellar performances in certain games there was no championship. We argued that without Chuck the same could be said even though his role was less significant. That argument isn't without merit. He didn't have the clutch dramatic play that Amidah made against St. Joseph for us to remember his play, but there were times when JC needed Chuck because AO had all these weaknesses. Imm, had opposing coaches been as astute as JC in exploiting weaknesses, they could easily have neutralized AO. But most coaches have a system in play and are less flexible in making adjustments in critical games. That's where you and I are on one side of the debate and the majority of posters are on the other side. Opposing coaches did not exploit AO's weaknesses and that was, in both our opinions as much a factor in the AO legacy as his accomplishments.

 

[intlzncster]

True no doubt but his inconsistent play was telling of what his future was in basketball and if you didn't see it then you weren't watching. Hands weren't good at all, back-to-the-basket game was eh and he rebounded some nights and not others. I would have said this that year and did so this isn't because of the so-called "hate" I have it's reality. I have no issue with anyone saying he was 2nd to Kemba he could very well have been, so could Jeremy and Bazz and Roscoe were close. The distance kemba had on everyone left 2nd wide open.

You could definitely make a case for Lamb over AO being number 2, especially in the tournament, but every one else was distant 4,5,6....

 

[intlzncster]

People are dismissing your critiquing of his play because of some of your more vitriolic posts towards AO. That dismissal is silly. Imo they should separate your emotional feelings about the way AO handled himself his last season and during his transfer, from the critiques you are presenting about his play. They cry foul saying your feelings towards AO are clouding your judgement, and yet that is what some of them are doing with you regarding this issue. Otherwise they would notice that your tone has changed dramatically.

It's really hard to do that though. Think about trying to separate a reasonable freescooter post from his usual relentless negativity. It's almost impossible to do it.

Note: definitely not comparing you to free, ma.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

People are dismissing your critiquing of his play because of some of your more vitriolic posts towards AO. That dismissal is silly. Imo they should separate your emotional feelings about the way AO handled himself his last season and during his transfer, from the critiques you are presenting about his play. They cry foul saying your feelings towards AO are clouding your judgement, and yet that is what some of them are doing with you regarding this issue. Otherwise they would notice that your tone has changed dramatically.

You don't think that mau's characterization of Oriakhi's play is filtered through the lens of his almost pathological anger toward the kid for the circumstances surrounding his departure? You think that mau - when he talks about AO on the court - is making a sober, objective assessment of his strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player? I think that's pretty silly. And you're certainly bending over backwards to find some change in tone. A few less exclamation points and ALL CAPS . . . that's about it.

 

[ctchamps]

It's really hard to do that though. Think about trying to separate a reasonable freescooter post from his usual relentless negativity. It's almost impossible to do it.

Note: definitely not comparing you to free, ma.

LOL! I know you and mau get along. And bringing free into this was a smart move. Well played. Quite frankly I think there was a better choice.

It is difficult to not get emotionally involved over subjects or people. I wasn't hitting on you over this issue. A little on BigErn, but I like his polarized insistence on taking to task people who are prone to extremes. I don't always agree with him because I feel he's too rigid. But I think there is a value having someone with that perspective in a forum with myriads of personalities.

 

[intlzncster]

LOL! I know you and mau get along. And bringing free into this was a smart move. Well played. Quite frankly I think there was a better choice.

It is difficult to not get emotionally involved over subjects or people. I wasn't hitting on you over this issue. A little on BigErn, but I like his polarized insistence on taking to task people who are prone to extremes. I don't always agree with him because I feel he's too rigid. But I think there is a value having someone with that perspective in a forum with myriads of personalities.

But this assumes that that poster puts for at least the odd insightful, well reasoned posts.

 

[ctchamps]

You don't think that mau's characterization of Oriakhi's play is filtered through the lens of his almost pathological anger toward the kid for the circumstances surrounding his departure? You think that mau - when he talks about AO on the court - is making a sober, objective assessment of his strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player? I think that's pretty silly. And you're certainly bending over backwards to find some change in tone. A few less exclamation points and ALL CAPS . . . that's about it.

Pathological anger? I don't see that at all in mau. He's certainly argumentative and is towards the 90th percentile of frequency to express things angrily in our fraternity. But I wouldn't call it pathological. That's too over the top imo.

And yes I think mau can make a sober assessment of AO even as he's angry. He just isn't as effective when he's in that emotional state. Now if he was accusing AO of sleeping with underaged kids, or beating women when there is no evidence of this, I would rethink my opinion. But he isn't doing that. He certainly is triggered by the subject, the same way Chief is by Jerome or freescooter by JC's type of recruits or Gurleyman's by Marcus or me by a myriad of things, or you by people who you think are irrational.

I stated that I had rational conversations with mau regarding AO well before he felt the need to express outrage towards AO over his departure. And his criticism then regarding AO's play was the same then as it is now. So people could argue that I am embellishing things about mau or misremembering things about then and now. Perhaps I am. But I sincerely doubt it.

 

[mauconnfan]

You could definitely make a case for Lamb over AO being number 2, especially in the tournament, but every one else was distant 4,5,6....

I can't say all that distant with Bazz.......having 2 point guards in the end of key games for ball handling and FT's was huge although little did we know bazz would end up that big and even bigger later in his career.

 

[mauconnfan]

You don't think that mau's characterization of Oriakhi's play is filtered through the lens of his almost pathological anger toward the kid for the circumstances surrounding his departure? You think that mau - when he talks about AO on the court - is making a sober, objective assessment of his strengths and weaknesses as a basketball player? I think that's pretty silly. And you're certainly bending over backwards to find some change in tone. A few less exclamation points and ALL CAPS . . . that's about it.

He is giving a fair assessment of his game without looking through the so-called filtered lens and if you think he was "great" besides a few games we can all point out, he wasn't.......show ALL the caps Crack. i he your cousin or something because your need to confront me and support him isn't all that far from what you perceive from me.

Pathological anger? I don't see that at all in mau. He's certainly argumentative and is towards the 90th percentile of frequency to express things angrily in our fraternity. But I wouldn't call it pathological. That's too over the top imo.

And yes I think mau can make a sober assessment of AO even as he's angry. He just isn't as effective when he's in that emotional state. Now if he was accusing AO of sleeping with underaged kids, or beating women when there is no evidence of this, I would rethink my opinion. But he isn't doing that. He certainly is triggered by the subject, the same way Chief is by Jerome or freescooter by JC's type of recruits or Gurleyman's by Marcus or me by a myriad of things, or you by people who you think are irrational.

I stated that I had rational conversations with mau regarding AO well before he felt the need to express outrage towards AO over his departure. And his criticism then regarding AO's play was the same then as it is now. So people could argue that I am embellishing things about mau or misremembering things about then and now. Perhaps I am. But I sincerely doubt it.

BINGO - like the caps! Spot on fleudy and thank you.

Never really was in awe of the kid because of inconsistency and I guess that makes it even easier to not support him upon his departure!

 

[johnhuskies95]

Pathological anger? I don't see that at all in mau. He's certainly argumentative and is towards the 90th percentile of frequency to express things angrily in our fraternity. But I wouldn't call it pathological. That's too over the top imo.

And yes I think mau can make a sober assessment of AO even as he's angry. He just isn't as effective when he's in that emotional state. Now if he was accusing AO of sleeping with underaged kids, or beating women when there is no evidence of this, I would rethink my opinion. But he isn't doing that. He certainly is triggered by the subject, the same way Chief is by Jerome or freescooter by JC's type of recruits or Gurleyman's by Marcus or me by a myriad of things, or you by people who you think are irrational.

I stated that I had rational conversations with mau regarding AO well before he felt the need to express outrage towards AO over his departure. And his criticism then regarding AO's play was the same then as it is now. So people could argue that I am embellishing things about mau or misremembering things about then and now. Perhaps I am. But I sincerely doubt it.

You admitted as recently as a year ago that you still hold ill feelings towards Oriakhi, so I'm not sure you're exactly a neutral observer in all this.

He was 9th in the NCAA in rebounding in 2011. He led the Big East in ORB%. He had the best season of any UConn big in the last 5 years.

To pretend that he wasn't objectively a good player is reckless. Was he inconsistent? Yes, of course. But every single player on that team struggled for parts of the season, including Kemba.

 

[CL82]

Is okay if I like the 2011 version but dislike the 2012 one?

 

[ctchamps]

He is giving a fair assessment of his game without looking through the so-called filtered lens and if you think he was "great" besides a few games we can all point out, he wasn't..show ALL the caps Crack. i he your cousin or something because your need to confront me and support him isn't all that far from what you perceive from me.


BINGO - like the caps! Spot on fleudy and thank you.

Never really was in awe of the kid because of inconsistency and I guess that makes it even easier to not support him upon his departure!

Thanks. One point that I'll point out and hope you don't take offense. Why take his or anyone's commentary personally?

I love my male testosterone. Like everything in the human body, there is a finite reservoir of this stuff. I hate wasting it on arguments going nowhere. I'm saving my last reserves for something that I find far more valuable. Color me a closet hippy but the older I get the more I understand the slogan, make love and not war!!!

 

[intlzncster]

I can't say all that distant with Bazz..having 2 point guards in the end of key games for ball handling and FT's was huge although little did we know bazz would end up that big and even bigger later in his career.

Just do the following thought exercise: if you removed the player from the lineup, which absence would have the most detrimental effect:

AO replacement: nobody (chuck?)
JL replacement: combo of SN/DB/Giffey (big step down, but it's something)
SN replacement: Donnell Beverly, Jeremy Lamb, and Giffey combo (definitely light, but it's something)

 

[ctchamps]

You admitted as recently as a year ago that you still hold ill feelings towards Oriakhi, so I'm not sure you're exactly a neutral observer in all this.

He was 9th in the NCAA in rebounding in 2011. He led the Big East in ORB%. He had the best season of any UConn big in the last 5 years.

To pretend that he wasn't objectively a good player is reckless. Was he inconsistent? Yes, of course. But every single player on that team struggled for parts of the season, including Kemba.

I have no problems with you questioning my objectivity. And yes I was allowing myself to be emotional about Alex at the time you point out so your recollection is accurate. The program was in severe jeopardy from a myriad of events and AO's commentary could have been far more damaging to the program because of those events.

You'll just have to decide if I'm still applying a bias towards AO in defending Mau. In other words am I still letting my anger to how he left the program filter into my assessment of his play or have I moved away from that anger?

He was an excellent rebounder. Both mau and I stated that. We're just pointing out the many flaws to his game that, if weren't there, would mean he could have been an outstanding player for his position. If you want to take out subjectivity from the discussion as much as possible you list all the factors that make an ideal center and give a opinion on all the facets of a centers game and not just rebounding.

BTW, I just thought of two more that mau and I didn't mention this go round. AO was not a good passer and not good at outlet passes on rebounds. But he certainly was in the top percentile with rebounding and that was very important for the championship team.

One more thing. The ORB% was somewhat mitigated in my opinion by the number of times AO would go up soft and miss an easy dunk or lay up only to go up again before making the shot or losing the ball. I can't recall how often but it seemed there were several instances in which he'd go up three or four times on his own miss shots. That increased his ORB% at the expense of his FG%

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

One more thing. The ORB% was somewhat mitigated in my opinion by the number of times AO would go up soft and miss an easy dunk or lay up only to go up again before making the shot or losing the ball. I can't recall how often but it seemed there were several instances in which he'd go up three or four times on his own miss shots. That increased his ORB% at the expense of his FG%

Yikes. That's an anecdotal recollection that you seem to recall something happening on several instances and therefore his statistics are skewed? Not particularly compelling.

 

[ctchamps]

You admitted as recently as a year ago that you still hold ill feelings towards Oriakhi, so I'm not sure you're exactly a neutral observer in all this.

He was 9th in the NCAA in rebounding in 2011. He led the Big East in ORB%. He had the best season of any UConn big in the last 5 years.

To pretend that he wasn't objectively a good player is reckless. Was he inconsistent? Yes, of course. But every single player on that team struggled for parts of the season, including Kemba.

In summary if there are ten facets to being a great player I would say AO was below a five(on a scale of one to ten) in nine of the facets and a ten on the tenth facet. My personal opinion based on this is that AO was a below average center with one important savant like quality to his game. That doesn't mean I believe my conclusion is sacrosanct, but I would prefer a player who has a more balanced ability to his game. You may feel that isn't necessary. That doesn't make either of us reckless. Just different parameter to how we assess "great".

 

[johnhuskies95]

In summary if there are ten facets to being a great player I would say AO was below a five(on a scale of one to ten) in nine of the facets and a ten on the tenth facet. My personal opinion based on this is that AO was a below average center with one important savant like quality to his game. That doesn't mean I believe my conclusion is sacrosanct, but I would prefer a player who has a more balanced ability to his game. You may feel that isn't necessary. That doesn't make either of us reckless. Just different parameter to how we assess "great".

He had a 19.4 PER in college. By definition that's not "below average".

 

[ctchamps]

Yikes. That's an anecdotal recollection that you seem to recall something happening on several instances and therefore his statistics are skewed? Not particularly compelling.

You got me. Weak subjective point. I'll have to have you proofread my stuff before posting so I can avoid making weak cases. I'm hoping the other points I made had more substance. If not I'd welcome someone refuting them.

 

[ctchamps]

He had a 19.4 PER in college. By definition that's not "below average".

No it's not. But PER largely measure offensive performance. Most of the negatives mau and I are making are about his play on defense. It largely ignores the aspects to AO's game which I'm discussing.

On offense AO was excellent on weak side rebounding and put backs. The question is how much of his offensive success was due a an actual skill set versus a benefit from having an outstanding guard who could penetrate defenses, demanding the attention of players guarding AO? Does PER quantify this?

 

[johnhuskies95]

No it's not. But PER largely measure offensive performance. Most of the negatives mau and I are making are about his play on defense. It largely ignores the aspects to AO's game which I'm discussing.

On offense AO was excellent on weak side rebounding and put backs. The question is how much of his offensive success was due a an actual skill set versus a benefit from having an outstanding guard who could penetrate defenses, demanding the attention of players guarding AO? Does PER quantify this?

He was 7th in the Big East in defensive win shares in 2011. I get that you're biased against him, but you're completely marginalizing his performance with nothing but scant anecdotal evidence to back it up.

 

[ctchamps]

He was 7th in the Big East in defensive win shares in 2011. I get that you're biased against him, but you're completely marginalizing his performance with nothing but scant anecdotal evidence to back it up.

LOL. At least you're a quick learner. BigErn would be proud.

I'm still waiting for your personal assessment of the facets of the game mau and I touched upon. You disagree with my conclusion about AO as a player. But touch base with all the specific points I made regarding flaws in his game. Debate them case by case.

This article debates your reliance on Defensive Win Shares.
Link: http://ascreamingcomesacrossthecourt.blogspot.com/2013/04/defensive-win-shares-are-completely.html

Defensive Win Shares Are Completely Broken

As the flagship one metric stat of the popular website basketball-reference, win shares are heavily cited in the basketball world. Unfortunately, the stat is far from perfect, and the defensive side of the stat is particularly egregious. Defense is notoriously tricky to quantify, and win shares attempts this using the usual bevy of defensive box score stats like blocks and steals, but they also include the team's defensive rating. This means that Zach Randolph gets the same credit for defense Tony Allen and Marc Gasol do, ignoring the few defensive box score stats. The influence of team defense is huge on this stat. What's even more problematic is that it's used in the time before steals and blocks, and when defensive rebounds weren't tracked separately from total rebounds.

The best example of how the metric fails is with Ryan Anderson. Traded from the Magic, who with Howard were a perennial defensive team, to the Hornets, still reeling from tanking and poor decisions, what changed was his scenery, not his defensive skill. Obviously, motivation is important with defense, as is coaching, but his defensive rating tracks closely to this team's rating. 2012 was his breakout season, yet his defensive rating plummeted from 19th in the league, or nearly a 95th percentile, to almost exactly average. The table below has the full details where percentile is based on players that season with at least 500 minutes.

 

[David 76]

He was a great rebounder and scored 10 points a game. How often do we get that from a center?

 

[ctchamps]

He was a great rebounder and scored 10 points a game. How often do we get that from a center?

Eloquently stated. Answer. Not often.

I'm just having fun debating 95. He might be as sensitive about AO as he thinks I am. Not sure.

Last time I come to the defense of a fellow Boneyarder. I blame mau for this. Sooner or later I'll capitulate. But I like 95's research and he hasn't gone below the belt too often.

 

[intlzncster]

He was a great rebounder and scored 10 points a game. How often do we get that from a center?

Hopefully we do this year.