Texas & OK ask to join SEC?

[huskymedic]

 

[HuskyHawk]

i agree i said the same in my posts above. was just joking b/c i know you are desperate for them to get into the big10 at any cost and the aac is worst case scenario.

Oh sure. I want a stable situation. AAC makes no sense for them. Old B12 with new members beats that. The B12 can kill the AAC if that's what it comes to. I've said since this started that it can be small, B12 backfills 2, or it can be bigger.

• If the B10 goes to 16, I think KU is the most logical fit. I don't think Iowa State is getting in with Iowa there, and UVA and NC have a tough ACC GOR plus regional ties. Colorado can get out and would get out.
• The Pac then has some decisions. It could expand eastward, grab Texas Tech, K State, OK State, maybe Baylor (good athletics, but eastern TX and has issues). If they lost CU they'd need a 5th. But those 4(5) plus Utah and the AZ schools make a decent southwestern pod. It's feasible, and the PAC needs more games not on Pacific time.
• If the ACC does nothing, and the Pac raids the B12, then WVU, Iowa State, TCU keep the name and fill with the best AAC schools and perhaps BYU, Boise, Colorado State. It would still be better than the current American, and they'd dump Tulane, ECU, WSU and probably Temple.

 

[Cleanface]

If I were the Big 10, I would add Kansas, UConn, UMass (NO) and maybe OSU or WVU, offering $10MM a year at first, and putting them all on an earn-in program where they have to show that they are additive on a revenue basis before they get full shares, if they ever get full shares. On some level, put them on an earn-in, performance based revenue split and tell them it will be revisited in 10 years. 10 years is an eternity, but the Big 10 needs to broaden its footprint now.

If I woke up tomor and found out the B1G added KU, UConn, OKST, and WVU...I wouldn't be mad. I would in the sense that college sports are all going to hell, but I wouldn't be surprised or super disappointed.

KU & UConn add 2 x basketball elites + 1 AAU + big east coast market.

OKST & WVU add athletics first, always stout FBall and BBall + OKST blueblood wrestling (bc the B1G loves wrestling) + WVU couch burners.

Doubt it bc of the academics, but if AAU gets thrown out then these four would be a digestable swath of additions with each adding some value. It would be a solid C+/B- group to add. If we're going there, then these four would be the four to go there with.

Srs question - does UConn have D1 lacrosse or hockey??

 

[HuskyHawk]

If I woke up tomor and found out the B1G added KU, UConn, OKST, and WVU...I wouldn't be mad. I would in the sense that college sports are all going to hell, but I wouldn't be surprised or super disappointed.

KU & UConn add 2 x basketball elites + 1 AAU + big east coast market.

OKST & WVU add athletics first, always stout FBall and BBall + OKST blueblood wrestling (bc the B1G loves wrestling) + WVU couch burners.

Doubt it bc of the academics, but if AAU gets thrown out then these four would be a great swath of additions with each adding some value. It would be a solid C+/B- group to add. If we're going there, then these four would be the four to go there with.

Srs question - does UConn have D1 lacrosse or hockey??

Yes, UConn has D1 hockey. Hockey East. But it won't get us into the B1G with bad football and no AAU.

 

[kingdobbs]

Someone here said no program would wait four years to leave a conference. Its looking like he was dead wrong. lol

This is OU and UT doing the dance one has to do to avoid accusations of acting in bad faith or in violation of existing contractual agreements, so they can set up for a much more smooth negotiation later.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

If I woke up tomor and found out the B1G added KU, UConn, OKST, and WVU...I wouldn't be mad. I would in the sense that college sports are all going to hell, but I wouldn't be surprised or super disappointed.

KU & UConn add 2 x basketball elites + 1 AAU + big east coast market.

OKST & WVU add athletics first, always stout FBall and BBall + OKST blueblood wrestling (bc the B1G loves wrestling) + WVU couch burners.

Doubt it bc of the academics, but if AAU gets thrown out then these four would be a digestable swath of additions with each adding some value. It would be a solid C+/B- group to add. If we're going there, then these four would be the four to go there with.

Srs question - does UConn have D1 lacrosse or hockey??

My prediction is that the Big 10 will do nothing, because that is what conferences always do when faced with a threat.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

This is a not so subtle threat at either OU and UT or ESPN. Or both.

 

[bendm]

Oh sure. I want a stable situation. AAC makes no sense for them. Old B12 with new members beats that. The B12 can kill the AAC if that's what it comes to. I've said since this started that it can be small, B12 backfills 2, or it can be bigger.

not to mention if the big12 refugees joined another conference including the aac theyd be forfeiting $20 million each in exit fees from UT and OU.

imo the easiest/most realistic path forward is to backfill with BYU, UCF, Cincy, and Houston. they'd remain a p5 (barely) by virtue of destroying the aac, would keep their name/branding, rivalries, and the exit fees.

 

[BigTenFan]

Big 10 isn't focused on the wrong things. College sports is almost immaterial to the bottom line of any of those schools. The research money dwarfs it as does tuition. I know people talk about college sports like it's "big business" and it is compared to when it was really an amateur sport, but it's small potatoes really.

In the last real season, 2019, the Big 10 lead in revenue (it did in 2020 as well). B10 conference led the P5 in revenue in 2019 according to USA Today But that was just $781m. That's it. That's not a lot. Disney is #49 on the Fortune 500. ESPN is a piece of Disney, and they fund half of college football as a part of their expenditures.

College football will destroy itself, and the Big 10, like the Ivy League, will still mean something. They won't be losing any schools to the SEC. Bet bets to add, if they can make it work, is Kansas and Colorado.

I agree- people act like Big 10 Universities will just lock their doors and close their campuses. Last time I checked- a degree from Wisconsin, Northwestern or Purdue was worth more than a degree from Mississippi State. 99.9 percent of students go to Universities to get an education. It's great when your Hoops team or Football team wins a championship- but you can't put that on your resume unless your name is Kemba Walker

 

[bendm]

I agree- people act like Big 10 Universities will just lock their doors and close their campuses. Last time I checked- a degree from Wisconsin, Northwestern or Purdue was worth more than a degree from Mississippi State. 99.9 percent of students go to Universities to get an education. It's great when your Hoops team or Football team wins a championship- but you can't put that on your resume unless your name is Kemba Walker

yes this is obviously true but i dont see how academic reputation is relevant to these decisions regarding athletic conferences at all. the conferences only dictate who schools play on game day, nothing academic or involving research which primarily takes place at the graduate program level. it does not say BIG10 or SEC anywhere on a diploma. duke is in the same conference as louisville and vandy is in the same conference as arkansas. northwestern has more in common with U Chicago than any other school in the BIG10 but it doesnt matter. you cant compare power conferences to the ivy league.

 

[Adios]

Sadly, sports do provide a barometer on universities, since it's essentially pageantry. SEC, Big Ten and PAC were wise and started with schools they thought have the most potential, especially with most schools being land grant schools. The most successful schools in sports are given means of developing the academic side of schools.

Look at UConn. UConn's success in sports is not an accident. As Yale and Wesleyan deemphasized sports, UConn gained from that.

 

[gampelcrazies]

My prediction is that the Big 10 will do nothing, because that is what conferences always do when faced with a threat.

Yeah but there really isn’t a move to be made by the B10.

 

[BigTenFan]

Sadly, sports do provide a barometer on universities, since it's essentially pageantry. SEC, Big Ten and PAC were wise and started with schools they thought have the most potential, especially with most schools being land grant schools. The most successful schools in sports are given means of developing the academic side of schools.

Look at UConn. UConn's success in sports is not an accident. As Yale and Wesleyan deemphasized sports, UConn gained from that.

I agree that sports help and you make a great point that your diploma does not list conference affiliation. However, University Presidents and their board of Trustees need to keep their mission of education as #1 Priority. Many Universities have forgotten this. Example , Joe Paterno Penn State

 

[CAtlantic]

 

[Eavesdrop]

a degree from Wisconsin, Northwestern or Purdue was worth more than a degree from Mississippi State. 99.9 percent of students go to Universities to get an education.

Ehhh.. I have two kids in high school. Both will have options. We've accordingly been researching the average expected net return on investment. We feel its an important metric. I should probably call it net earnings over my out of pocket expenses. They aren't investing their money, and I'm getting nothing in return for mine (except maybe gratitude).

We've sliced it several ways, using different sources. One broad conclusion is that Big 10 universities (on average) don't perform as well as I would've thought. Most don't even provide the best expected return in their own state. On average, Northwestern, Michigan and Maryland grads can expect to net the most over their careers. The expected difference between say Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa, Auburn, Arkansas and LSU graduates is negligible.

 

[WestHartHusk]

This is a not so subtle threat at either OU and UT or ESPN. Or both.

What is the basis of the threat? If he referred to a year of entry during the current contract, Id agree. But neither OU or UT made any commitments beyond 25.

 

[bendm]

if a recruit wanted to play in the BIG10 they wouldnt opt to fly across the entire country from LA/Oregon to NJ/Maryland, they would just sign with OSU or PSU instead. PAC schools would be voluntarily forfeiting any recruiting competitiveness with BIG10 schools if they switched conferences.

 

[BigTenFan]

Ehhh.. I have two kids in high school. Both will have options. We've accordingly been researching the average expected net return on investment. We feel its an important metric. I should probably call it net earnings over my out of pocket expenses. They aren't investing their money, and I'm getting nothing in return for mine (except maybe gratitude).

We've sliced it several ways, using different sources. One broad conclusion is that Big 10 universities (on average) don't perform as well as I would've thought. Most don't even provide the best expected return in their own state. On average, Northwestern, Michigan and Maryland grads can expect to net the most over their careers. The expected difference between say Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa, Auburn, Arkansas and LSU graduates is negligible.

Really depends on what your kids are going to study. You can get a great education at many in state CT Universities. I have one at Purdue- Engineering and the cost is not much more than UConn Engineering but many more options. Every kid is different- so it's definitely not one size fits all

 

[Eavesdrop]

Really depends on what your kids are going to study. You can get a great education at many in state CT Universities. I have one at Purdue- Engineering and the cost is not much more than UConn Engineering but many more options. Every kid is different- so it's definitely not one size fits all

Yep. The more micro - program/department/major - level you can examine and compare, the better. And, congrats on your son. Purdue is an excellent engineering school.

My kids' high school literally sits adjacent to the UConn campus, and I thought for sure their friends would convince them to matriculate there. I now doubt whether either will.

My son has even expressed an interest in matriculating abroad. He currently seems most interested in McGill University in Montreal, the University of Freiburg in Germany and Maastricht University in the Netherlands. My wife and I are definitely going to enjoy touring colleges with him if his outlook persists!

 

[nelsonmuntz]

What is the basis of the threat? If he referred to a year of entry during the current contract, Id agree. But neither OU or UT made any commitments beyond 25.

Tortuous interference

 

[BigTenFan]

Yep. The more micro - program/department/major - level you can examine and compare, the better. And, congrats on your son. Purdue is an excellent engineering school.

My kids' high school literally sits adjacent to the UConn campus, and I thought for sure their friends would convince them to matriculate there. I now doubt whether either will.

My son has even expressed an interest in matriculating abroad. He currently seems most interested in McGill University in Montreal, the University of Freiburg in Germany and Maastricht University in the Netherlands. My wife and I are definitely going to enjoy touring colleges with him if his outlook persists!

If family budget allows- I think kids also learn important life lessons being away from familiar surroundings. In this crazy Covid world we live in....giving kids different options probably more important than ever.
Enjoy the experiences with your family.

 

[WestHartHusk]

Tortuous interference

I’m still not following.

There is no contract for the time period referenced. And even if there were a contract, there is no allusion to third party instigation - UT/OU can hardly be accused of tortuous interference with their own contract.

 

[LBird33]

College football is a mess and not getting any better

 

[freescooter]

Ehhh.. I have two kids in high school. Both will have options. We've accordingly been researching the average expected net return on investment. We feel its an important metric. I should probably call it net earnings over my out of pocket expenses. They aren't investing their money, and I'm getting nothing in return for mine (except maybe gratitude).

We've sliced it several ways, using different sources. One broad conclusion is that Big 10 universities (on average) don't perform as well as I would've thought. Most don't even provide the best expected return in their own state. On average, Northwestern, Michigan and Maryland grads can expect to net the most over their careers. The expected difference between say Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa, Auburn, Arkansas and LSU graduates is negligible.

I guess. One would like to think that this return on investment stuff is not the reason one selects a college, but hey, to each his own I guess. Not everything can be monetized though. Nor should it be.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I’m still not following.

There is no contract for the time period referenced. And even if there were a contract, there is no allusion to third party instigation - UT/OU can hardly be accused of tortuous interference with their own contract.

It does imply a 3rd party. Who were OU and UT planning this for months with? If the SEC contacted OU and UT and tried to get them to violate or break their contract, then that is tortuous interference. There are other torts available, including the good faith obligation of parties to honor their contracts. OU and UT are clearly worried about this one because they are choosing their language carefully.

The Big 12 is just going through the same legal checklist the Big East went through as it was ripped apart. The Big East is a text book case for how to handle a conference dissolution, with 14 of the 17 Big East schools (plus TCU) ending up much better off after realignment than they were when realignment started.

 

[WestHartHusk]

It does imply a 3rd party. Who were OU and UT planning this for months with? If the SEC contacted OU and UT and tried to get them to violate or break their contract, then that is tortuous interference. There are other torts available, including the good faith obligation of parties to honor their contracts. OU and UT are clearly worried about this one because they are choosing their language carefully.

The Big 12 is just going through the same legal checklist the Big East went through as it was ripped apart. The Big East is a text book case for how to handle a conference dissolution, with 14 of the 17 Big East schools (plus TCU) ending up much better off after realignment than they were when realignment started.

There are two big IFs in the middle. ESPN would have to have been the one to initiate discussions, and those discussions would have to have been about the period of the contract. I see nothing suggesting either so far.

Maybe the current contract has an obligation to negotiate a subsequent extension “in good faith”, but based on everything I have seen that seems unlikely, in which case as a Common Law country they have no good faith obligation regarding a subsequent agreement.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

There are two big IFs in the middle. ESPN would have to have been the one to initiate discussions, and those discussions would have to have been about the period of the contract. I see nothing suggesting either so far.

Maybe the current contract has an obligation to negotiate a subsequent extension “in good faith”, but based on everything I have seen that seems unlikely, in which case as a Common Law country they have no good faith obligation regarding a subsequent agreement.

ESPN would make the liability worse if they were at all involved in this, but they don't NEED to be in the middle.

While you are in a contractual relationship, and especially in a partnership, you do have a good faith obligation to those partners. If one partner is acting in a manner to deliberately undermine a partnership, while still representing that it is a committed member of the partnership, there is liability. You can't do that. This is not a ground breaking premise.

UT and OU also have some problems in that the Houston Chronicle reporter almost certainly got the story from Texas A&M. UT and OU never notified the Big 12 that they were looking to leave.

None of this is going to stop OU or UT from leaving, most likely, but it gives the Big 12 a little leverage for whatever comes next. Just like the Big East had after the 2002 raid. The Big East remained a BCS conference because there was enough liability for all the parties involved that it was not worth fighting it out in court, so the Big East got to remain at the adult table for a few more years.

 

[billybud]

Unless there is a provision, in writing, in the GOR, regarding contact with other conferences without notifying the Big 12, there is no legal provision.

When the Big 12 uses language like "traditionally", "integrity", etc...and not quote a a provision in a signed agreement...well, that that signifies that "good will" means nothing in terms of the current contract obligation.

 

[billybud]

However...

The Big 12 Bylaws do have a clause that pertains...


Section 3.0 Withdrawal and Sanctions

.....3.2

(C) if a third party offers to, or attempts to induce a Member to, leave the Conference and/or breach or not to fully perform its future obligations under the Grant of Rights Agreement and the Member does not both (1) inform the Conference of such action as promptly as possible (but in any event not later than twelve (12) hours after such action) and (2) immediately and unconditionally reject that offer in a form and manner reasonably acceptable to the Commissioner..

However...I am positive that the Texas/OU/ESPN lawyers have been up front about not inducing to breach the GOR...since Texas and OU issued a joint statement that they are going to fullfill the GOR but are giving notice of intent to not sign the next one.

 

[Pat125]

Unless there is a provision, in writing, in the GOR, regarding contact with other conferences without notifying the Big 12, there is no legal provision.

When the Big 12 uses language like "traditionally", "integrity", etc...and not quote a a provision in a signed agreement...well, that that signifies that "good will" means nothing in terms of the current contract obligation.

I don’t have a link, but apparently the Big 12 by laws does have such a provision. It states that any school that contacts another conference has to inform the conference of such communication. Same if another conference contacts the school. However, the by laws don’t state what the penalty is if they get caught, except the other members can vote them out of the conference.

Note: Posted before I saw the above.