Tenn down 43-35 to Chatt in 2nd half (merged)

[vtcwbuff]

Tennessee fans are totally delusional. On paper, this team has 4 kids who were top 10 in their class (yeah, I think Blue Star had Simmons at #4). They have 3 others who were top 20. Their fans were ecstatic at putting up an average of 111 in their preseason wins over Carson Newman and Coker. And they were psyched someone picked them to make it to the final 4 (total dope) while another publication picked them to finish the season at #7.

I mean this is a Chattanooga team who didn't win the Southern Conference the past 2 years - Samford did. I can't even find Chattanooga's record from last year, but honestly, it would be like Stanford losing to Fresno State (Stanford beat them by only 11 tonight)...

I can't believe I'm going to say this but Tony was right - who is the Tennessee PG? They had 6 assists on 24 baskets. Simmons was their leading scorer but she took 25 shots to get 23 points and shot 36%. I'm not sure they win 20 games this year.

Chattanooga was 22-10 last year. Sagarin had them ranked 123rd probably because of their really weak schedule.

 

[UConnChapette]

I'm going to the Tennessee/Georgia Tech game on Sunday...that one could get ugly!

GO TECH!!!

 

[UConnChapette]

Mojo deities, please forgive me:

UConn men upset #14 Michigan State
UConn football gets their first Big East win against Pitt
Tennessee loses to Chattanooga

3 for 3. I'd say it was a great night last night!

 

[doggydaddy]

Didn't pay the $9 for the webcast. But based on everything I've read and the box score, it's just more of the same only worse for Tennessee.

It's Pat's offensive scheme only run by someone not as good. And it's the same scheme being executed by worse players than last year.

Simmons is the same, but maybe she will be even more of a negative influence on the taking 40% of the teams shots. She just keeps shooting, even when missing. Yeah, I know, shooters keep shooting. We would want Lewis to keep shooting. But Simmons takes way too many bad shots.

Massingale is supposed to be one of the top point guards in the country. Still not seeing it.

Burdick, whose strength is supposed to be passing had zero assists. And still not playing like a top 5 recruit.

Graves was as expected. A physical dynamo. But fouling out in her first game against inferior competition is a bad sign.

The team numbers are just horrific. 6 assists and 25 TO's.

It's clear this team wasn't ready to start the season and that falls on the coaching staff. They could become a totally disfunctional team with the top 5 schedule they are playing.

If they lose to GTech Sunday they will be out of the top 25 and will need to have some good wins against ranked teams to move back in.

That being said, a good win against GTech could move them in the right direction.

 

[UConnChapette]

I'm going to the Tennessee/Georgia Tech game on Sunday...that one could get ugly!

Hey OTP, I would be interested in hearing your review of the new McCamish Pavilion. This will be the first game in the new arena. I will get to see it first hand next May when my son graduates *pending passing all his remaining courses. But we passed by it several times in August when he moved back into his apartment. The outside looks amazing. The inside was completely gutted and I hear they are bringing the students closer to the floor - they used to be in an slightly elevated section behind one basket.

I hope the students attend in force! I have been impressed with Tech the last few years, and they have a very good recruiting class this year. I really like their chances against Tennessee!

 

[Tonyc]

The REALITY of where this LV program is beginning to set in. I posted that the team was in disarray. They had problems recruiting etc. Some disagreed, I think now we can all agree. This loss reminds me of the Ball State loss. Devastating to a once elite program.

IMO the problems are off the court and have been for quite some time. What those problems are I dont know. My conclusions come from observations of underacheivement. The problems have caught up with the team and are now being witnessed on the court.

IMO you cant take a team like Tenn with that much talent, and lose to teams you should be beating by 20+ points. We've heard fans say if I had all that talent I could win with that team. Well with that said what happened? Many of the posts over the past day or so have included the problems on the court but I think its more than that. You cant have a ledgeary program where girls looking at colleges in the past had Tenn at the top of their list, and wanted to be a LV and now this club struggles to get them to come. They are not attracting recruits like then once did. You cant have commits, decommits recommits and then take those kids back. This shows me lack of disipline on and off the court.

The next couple of weeks their schedule includes, Tomorrow Georgia Tech which will tell us alot about this team. The end of this month and beginning of December Stanford, Baylor, Rutgers, UNC, and Texas. If things dont turn around there could be a new meaning for "GO LadyVols".
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[OneTrickPony]

Hey OTP, I would be interested in hearing your review of the new McCamish Pavilion. This will be the first game in the new arena. I will get to see it first hand next May when my son graduates *pending passing all his remaining courses. But we passed by it several times in August when he moved back into his apartment. The outside looks amazing. The inside was completely gutted and I hear they are bringing the students closer to the floor - they used to be in an slightly elevated section behind one basket.

I hope the students attend in force! I have been impressed with Tech the last few years, and they have a very good recruiting class this year. I really like their chances against Tennessee!

I'll give you a good report...I didn't buy tickets until Friday and I'm sitting way up in the end zone...for the ticket agencies it was a sellout. At least Tennessee can still fill your arena!

PS It may be on ESPN3...

 

[doggydaddy]

Pictures from the TEnnessee game. Pat looks none too happy.

 

[UConnChapette]

Pictures from the TEnnessee game. Pat looks none too happy.

Neither does Holli

 

[triaddukefan]

GO TECH!!!

I assume K. Davis will be in attendance for this game, wouldn't it be great to see her future school put a beatdown on the Vols ?

 

[Vowelguy]

The REALITY of where this LV program is beginning to set in. I posted that the team was in disarray. They had problems recruiting etc. Some disagreed, I think now we can all agree. This loss reminds me of the Ball State loss. Devastating to a once elite program.​

​

IMO the problems are off the court and have been for quite some time. What those problems are I dont know. My conclusions come from observations of underacheivement. The problems have caught up with the team and are now being witnessed on the court.​

​

IMO you cant take a team like Tenn with that much talent, and lose to teams you should be beating by 20+ points.​

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(1) I don't know what recruiting for 2014 has to do with yesterday's loss.
(2) "With that much talent". That statement is false. They lost their 3 best players last year from a barely-top-10 team with a mediocre bench, and their frosh class has one elite player + 1 possibly very good one. And their only center is average at best.

 

[EricLA]

​

(1) I don't know what recruiting for 2014 has to do with yesterday's loss.
(2) "With that much talent". That statement is false. They lost their 3 best players last year from a barely-top-10 team with a mediocre bench, and their frosh class has one elite player + 1 possibly very good one. And their only center is average at best.

I agree with you on point 1, but not on point 2. Vicki Baugh wasn't one of their best players - well... maybe that's debatable. her injuries certainly slowed her. I think she was drafted in the 3rd round but eventually cut.

The "talent" on the team is as follows:

Spani - top 15 recruit
Simmons - top 5 recruit (per one of the services - blue star or asgr)
Massengale and Burdick - top 5 recruits
Graves - top 5 recruit, and many tennessee fans will tell you Carter would have been top 10 or higher if not for her injury

So clearly the talent is there. In fact, I'd say on paper, they have more "talent" per high school rankings than Stanford, Notre Dame, Kentucky, aTm, and most of the schools not named UCONN, Baylor, or Duke. I mean, that's 5 kids who were ranked in the top 15 coming out of high school... 6 if you count Carter like Tennessee fans do...

Additionally, and to make matters worse, they did indeed lose 3 seniors - 2 of which were top 4 draft picks and both on the all rookie team in the WNBA. But most tenn fans would tell you going into the season that they deserved to be ranked in the top 10 just based on their talent alone. Problem is, you had Simmons taking 40% of the total shots for the team, 6 assists on 25 made baskets, aside from Graves, the freshmen were pretty much nonexistent.

Tony mentioned the recruiting problems, which I disagree with, but he also talked about the lack of chemistry and lack of leadership. He said from day 1 that Massengale (with her overly involved father) would be a chemistry problem. I have zero evidence if that is true or not, but as the #3 or 4 player coming out of her class, and now a sophomore, it's a bit mystifying why she wasn't starting and running the team with skill and confidence.

Heck, Moriah Jefferson, (who one tennessee fan came on our board and said would be "advantage tennessee" in comparison to Massengale) already performed better than Ariel in her very first game at UCONN as a freshman. If your two PG's - Carter and Massengale - combine for 2 assists in an entire game, you aren't going to get very far.

Yes, tennessee fans are lamenting the effort by the team, the lack of "senior leadership" shown by Williams and Spani, and the fact that "only Simmons, Graves, and Harrison" looked like they "wanted it", but losing to Chattanooga is a huge step in the wrong direction.

 

[RadyLady]

But kate fagan picked them for the FInal Four!

Kate Fagan? Never heard of her.

 

[Vowelguy]

I agree with you on point 1, but not on point 2. Vicki Baugh wasn't one of their best players - .

Look at box scores from the NCAA last year. Baugh was clearly their 3rd best player.

The "talent" on the team is as follows:

Spani - top 15 recruit
Simmons - top 5 recruit (per one of the services - blue star or asgr)
Massengale and Burdick - top 5 recruits
Graves - top 5 recruit, and many tennessee fans will tell you Carter would have been top 10 or higher if not for her injury

So clearly the talent is there.

As I've said over and over, HS rankings are irrelevant once college starts. To argue that Burdick is a great player because she was top 5 in HS but did nothing as a frosh is mind boggling.
You cant blame this year's team because players failed to develop in previous years; they are what they are now.

Massengale, Simmons, & Spani are all good but not great players. Graaves may indeed be great, and too soon to tell on Carter. But that's all they have. That is not a team "loaded with talent." They can be a possibly good, but hardly great team.

 

[EricLA]

Look at box scores from the NCAA last year. Baugh was clearly their 3rd best player.



As I've said over and over, HS rankings are irrelevant once college starts. To argue that Burdick is a great player because she was top 5 in HS but did nothing as a frosh is mind boggling.
You cant blame this year's team because players failed to develop in previous years; they are what they are now.

Massengale, Simmons, & Spani are all good but not great players. Graaves may indeed be great, and too soon to tell on Carter. But that's all they have. That is not a team "loaded with talent." They can be a possibly good, but hardly great team.

I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me or disagreeing with Tennessee fans. Either way, to say that "HS rankings are irrelevant once college starts" is wrong IMHO. The reason - because fans continue to discuss them up until the kids graduate, and even beyond.

Also, ask ANYONE at HG how they compile their rankings. A good portion of it is coachability, potential and how they expect the kids to develop in college. So yeah, the discussion is "relevant", whether you choose to think so or not.
BTW Baugh averaged 7.5 PPG last year, 4th on the team well behind Simmons, and about equal to Massengale. So maybe she had some good NCAA games, but they certainly did not lose their top 3 scorers to graduation...

I don't disagree that players have to be developed, but you STILL hear people talk about how Angel McCaughtry wasn't even ranked in the top 50 in HS, yet she's a gold medal Olympian. So high school rankings relevant for college performance? Hardly. But HS rankings relevant because of discussions by fan bases? All the time.

Not a team loaded with talent? Name 10 other teams on paper who have more talent. I bet you can't even name 5. And I never argued that any of their players are great. I was pointing out what Tennessee fans believe about their team filled with HS all americans.

 

[RadyLady]

Simmons presents a challenge to Holly. She is certainly a spirited and talented player but also an undisciplined one. Tennessee took 63 shots and Simmons took 25 of them; she was 1-8 on treys. Such imbalance will not stimulate her teammates.

And as Louisiville beat Texas A&M, former UConn recruit Sara Hammond led the way with 20 points.

Not sure if she started at point, but if she is in the 1 position, then her stats show her as someone who doesn't know how to run the team and/or someone who doesn't yet trust her teammates. We have seen Simmons behave the same way in her previous years. To her credit she is a winner, and wants to win. She has to learn though that there is no "I" in team. Holly indeed has her hands full teaching a tennessee team to run an offense. I wish her well.

I do feel bad for Holly. She has such huge shoes to fill, and she is certainly under a microscope. This current team is not her team, these kids were not her recruits. It will take some time for her to develope a team, and time indeed will tell if the fans and administration will be patient enough to let her do this.

 

[RadyLady]

Didn't pay the $9 for the webcast. But based on everything I've read and the box score, it's just more of the same only worse for Tennessee.

It's Pat's offensive scheme only run by someone not as good. And it's the same scheme being executed by worse players than last year.

Simmons is the same, but maybe she will be even more of a negative influence on the taking 40% of the teams shots. She just keeps shooting, even when missing. Yeah, I know, shooters keep shooting. We would want Lewis to keep shooting. But Simmons takes way too many bad shots.

Massingale is supposed to be one of the top point guards in the country. Still not seeing it.

Burdick, whose strength is supposed to be passing had zero assists. And still not playing like a top 5 recruit.

Graves was as expected. A physical dynamo. But fouling out in her first game against inferior competition is a bad sign.

The team numbers are just horrific. 6 assists and 25 TO's.

It's clear this team wasn't ready to start the season and that falls on the coaching staff. They could become a totally disfunctional team with the top 5 schedule they are playing.

If they lose to GTech Sunday they will be out of the top 25 and will need to have some good wins against ranked teams to move back in.

That being said, a good win against GTech could move them in the right direction.

agreed

 

[UConnCat]

Tennessee surely has more than enough talent to beat Chattanooga...soundly. But of course this year's team is less talented than last year's.

For all the talk about defense coming from Knoxville, you would think the Vols would be good at it. They're not, and haven't been for a few years. Without anchors in the lane it's not likely to improve this year.

Offensively, the Vols don't have good ball movement and every year seem to have more turnovers than assists. Last night's stat line (6 assists and 25 turnovers) against a team like Chattanooga is terrible.

 

[triaddukefan]

Just looked at the Vols schedule. Games @ GaTech and @ Miami in the next 8 days. Games vs MTSU, UNC, @ Texas, @ Baylor, Stanford and Rutgers. All before the end of December

On paper they have more talent than any team on that list outside of Baylor. Not sure if they go 7-1 against those teams though.

 

[UConnCat]

Not sure if she started at point, but if she is in the 1 position, then her stats show her as someone who doesn't know how to run the team and/or someone who doesn't yet trust her teammates. We have seen Simmons behave the same way in her previous years. To her credit she is a winner, and wants to win. She has to learn though that there is no "I" in team. Holly indeed has her hands full teaching a tennessee team to run an offense. I wish her well.

I do feel bad for Holly. She has such huge shoes to fill, and she is certainly under a microscope. This current team is not her team, these kids were not her recruits. It will take some time for her to develope a team, and time indeed will tell if the fans and administration will be patient enough to let her do this.

I feel badly for Holly too. I like her.

I don't know that I'd label Simmons a winner. She is very talented but selfish in a bad way. In Jim Fuller's blog this morning, Geno talks about wanting Breanna Stewart to be less unselfish, i.e., realizing that shooting when open will make the team better. That's what winners do. Simmons often takes shots when she's not open, or takes quick shots without running any semblance of offense, or plays like it's all on her and all about her. That's not what winners do.

 

[Outside Shot]

eric, very interesting points about the "talent" that is there on the Tenn roster. I had the same thought. You never know how things will pan out. Many of those kids were also USA Basketball selections or at least in the pool of candidates. Not only USA Basketball, but also the Glenn Nelsons, Mike Flynns, Brandon Clays, Keil Moores, Chris Hansens of the world repeatedly told us how good they were and that they were the cream of the crop. It is such an inexact science. You never know exactly what may lie behind rankings. I can think of other recent teams where classes of highly touted recruits didn't really work out.

All that being said, maybe Tenn. will get it together? I actually think Coach Warlick seems like a decent person. I love what she's done in the fight vs. cancer. It is reasonable to expect an adjustment period. It's also reality that road games are not easy for 90%+ of teams. Not many BCS teams would schedule an away game at UT-Chatt.

 

[vtcwbuff]

" . . . . based on everything I've read and the box score, it's just more of the same only worse for Tennessee."

There have been several comments about lack of assists. We've had a couple of threads about it. To me that's a prime indicator of a team playing "me" basketball and that's a coaching failure. Tennessee's average assist ranking for the last 4 years is 66th. Last night they had 6. In contrast UConn's assist ranking averaged 1.8 over the same time frame.

I wonder if there are any nasty "ball hog chick" comments on the private orange board this AM. It's really too bad they went private. I miss my morning chuckle the day after a UTenn loss.

There are calls for Warlick's head on the public one.

 

[RadyLady]

I feel badly for Holly too. I like her.

I don't know that I'd label Simmons a winner. She is very talented but selfish in a bad way. In Jim Fuller's blog this morning, Geno talks about wanting Breanna Stewart to be less unselfish, i.e., realizing that shooting when open will make the team better. That's what winners do. Simmons often takes shots when she's not open, or takes quick shots without running any semblance of offense, or plays like it's all on her and all about her. That's not what winners do.

yup. we on the same page

 

[doggydaddy]

Just looked at the Vols schedule. Games @ GaTech and @ Miami in the next 8 days. Games vs MTSU, UNC, @ Texas, @ Baylor, Stanford and Rutgers. All before the end of December

On paper they have more talent than any team on that list outside of Baylor. Not sure if they go 7-1 against those teams though.

They will be lucky to go 4-3.

 

[Vowelguy]

Either way, to say that "HS rankings are irrelevant once college starts" is wrong IMHO.

We're talking about the talent of players. HS rankings are irrelvant for evaluating talent once college starts.

"These players are talented because a delusional fan base says so" does not carry much water with me.