Sanogo and Clingan | Page 5 | The Boneyard

Sanogo and Clingan

my2cents said:
Lots of great analysis. Who cares about the minutes between Sanogo and Clingan if our guards can't shoot or finish at the rim?
Expand ...

This is a very true statement. No matter what we believe with the 2 bigs, together or not, other people need to start making plays. I mean Hawkins disappears, AJ plays very stupid at times, Newton is getting caught in the air too often, Joey is a mason suddenly. And honestly the one guy who should've seen the ball more was Karaban, he made some shots but we don't find him.

Based on this they need a reboot from their coach, back to the drawing board. Starting to look like that's a little blank at times though! Need to fill in some X's and O's I'm thinking.
 
Austin316 said:
Ok chill… Clingan is great because Sanogo is great. They practice together every day. They have different games styles. If Sanogo was 7’2 and Clingan was 6’9 you probably wouldn’t be saying that. They’re both good… leave it alone.
Expand ...

I get what you're saying but like it or not Clingan is 7'2 and Sanogo isn't so play the cards your dealt. And last night Clingan had a better hand, and the game versus X can't happen again where he only gets 7 minutes. If anything we have learned that. 4 blocks are a small part of the defensive story as other shots were just thrown with him in the vicinity. Not the same with Sanogo, i like the guy he's a nice player for sure but 2 games in a row hurt us defensively.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Other than the fact that the team went +5 with them on the court together in a game we got spanked, this is a great point.
Expand ...

The Boneyard believes in alternative facts. Hurley is right about one thing though. Clingan has to play more. There are only two ways to achieve that. One is playing Sanogo fewer minutes and the other is playing them together more. Maybe over time we’ll see that playing them together a lot won’t work, but given the other two options we have to give it a try.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Other than the fact that the team went +5 with them on the court together in a game we got spanked, this is a great point.
Expand ...
Is this true? That's an interesting stat. It seemed like it was no better or worse with both of them together, but +5 in a -12 game is significant.
 
Playing both 5s on the court is not good strategy. It takes away ball movement on the perimeter because the opposing team can work to deny interior entry passes and you are left with only three deep to create the open shot or dribble -drive
 
.-.
jake14mw said:
Is this true? That's an interesting stat. It seemed like it was no better or worse with both of them together, but +5 in a -12 game is significant.
Expand ...
They played 5 minutes in the 1st half (1 and 2 below) and 3 minutes in the 2nd half. And were either -2 or -4 for the game, not sure how the FTs are counted

First time they played together: +2 (Could be +3, Clingan fouled and subbed out, so not sure where the made FT is counted)

2nd: -2 (could be -4, same reason as above)

3rd: -2 (could be -3)
 
I think for long(er) stretches, we should play Clingan, Sanogo, Karaban, Hawkins, and Jackson....

On offense:
Clingan sets up at the foul line/key to leverage his vision for passing and for setting devastating picks as well as slashing for back door jams and to crash the boards.

Sanogo sets up on the block to take advantage of 1v1's or demand double-teams to free up our shooters.

Karaban and Hawkins as 3 pt shooters and cutters.

Jackson as point and board crasher.

On defense: play a good bit of zone to protect against our being foul prone/overzealous 25-35 feet from the basket.

Bring in the rest of the bench to give guys a blow, take advantage of matchups, and for the inevitable foul trouble.
 
businesslawyer said:
The Boneyard believes in alternative facts. Hurley is right about one thing though. Clingan has to play more. There are only two ways to achieve that. One is playing Sanogo fewer minutes and the other is playing them together more. Maybe over time we’ll see that playing them together a lot won’t work, but given the other two options we have to give it a try.
Expand ...

I will let Hurley off the hook on this, a little. NBA coaches get caught up in the same problem of thinking they need to play small lineups. The better coaches are coming around on this, and I hope Hurley gets there sooner than later.
 
Does anyone else wonder with his size, why Sanogo plays such a soft, finesse game. He should get more foul calls but he seems to prefer reverse layups and fall aways to going hard at the rim. With his strength he should be taking it hard to the rim every chance possible.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I have been screaming for Hurley to play two bigs at once for the last three seasons. He wasted a roster of Carlton, Whaley and a frosh Sanogo by rotating them at one position while we watched guards like Gaffney and Adams launch contested pull up 3's that were effectively turnovers they had such a low probability of success.

Now he has Clingan and Sanogo. UConn will dominate with both of them on the court at once. Other teams will have to adjust. Or we can go 3 for a million from 3 like we did tonight and see where that gets us.

I don't want to pick on just Hurley, because 90% of the coaches in D1 and the NBA do not really understand the statistics of where points come from and how to maximize points per possession, and make the same mistake.
Expand ...
Sorry, are you saying you understand better than 90% of coaches the stats behind where points come from and how to maximize them per possession? And, in your opinion, that's taking more 2 point shots? Not following the logic here. Yes, when we shoot poorly from 3 it looks like the wrong option, but that doesn't mean you're anywhere close to correct about maximizing points per possession - actually the complete opposite.
 
.-.
PAHusky said:
Sorry, are you saying you understand better than 90% of coaches the stats behind where points come from and how to maximize them per possession? And, in your opinion, that's taking more 2 point shots? Not following the logic here. Yes, when we shoot poorly from 3 it looks like the wrong option, but that doesn't mean you're anywhere close to correct about maximizing points per possession - actually the complete opposite.
Expand ...

Are you saying that the way basketball is played today is the apex and there will never be any further improvements in the game or strategy? Thanks for playing.

And yes, I am willing to say that my understanding of math and statistics is better than most NCAA coaches. I have some game when it comes to this topic. In fact, I think the vast majority of coaches do not understand conditional probability at all based on the way they coach. Basketball is just scratching the surface of understanding the related probabilities, both conditional and (somewhat) unconditional, of events in a basketball game. Coaches still believe in nonsense like that players get "hot" in their shooting. The "hot hand" fallacy was proven by a group of psychology professors almost 40 years ago.
 
navery12 said:
They played 5 minutes in the 1st half (1 and 2 below) and 3 minutes in the 2nd half. And were either -2 or -4 for the game, not sure how the FTs are counted

First time they played together: +2 (Could be +3, Clingan fouled and subbed out, so not sure where the made FT is counted)

2nd: -2 (could be -4, same reason as above)

3rd: -2 (could be -3)
Expand ...
Grrr... yup, just watched those parts back and you are spot on. Clingan and Sanogo were -2 to -5 for the 7 minutes they were in together, depending on how you count the points from the line. So, it was slightly worse rate than when they were not together. Certainly nowhere close to +5 that was stated earlier.
 
tentoes4rings said:
Does anyone else wonder with his size, why Sanogo plays such a soft, finesse game. He should get more foul calls but he seems to prefer reverse layups and fall aways to going hard at the rim. With his strength he should be taking it hard to the rim every chance possible.
Expand ...
He has good touch and can score while surrounded by defenders which is a unique skill to have and means he may not be trying to draw contact. He has soft touch on his layups and short shots but I wouldn't say he has a finesse game. He is best known for working hard to get amazing position down low and he obviously moves guys around to make that happen.
 
Until Sanogo or Clingan can consistently stretch the D and hit foul line extended jumpers, the dual bigs is not good for the offense in long stretches. The paint is too clogged, closing any dribble penetration and making it easier to play defense because neither of them can offer the spacing Karaban offers. Our guards are having a tough time penetrating as it is.

All the offensive advantages we can see from dual bigs is negated on the other end because Sanogo cannot guard most 4s currently. Sure Clingan is a great rim protector, but we are not at the point where we can just funnel the opposing team to him like we did with Thabeet.
 
navery12 said:
They played 5 minutes in the 1st half (1 and 2 below) and 3 minutes in the 2nd half. And were either -2 or -4 for the game, not sure how the FTs are counted

First time they played together: +2 (Could be +3, Clingan fouled and subbed out, so not sure where the made FT is counted)

2nd: -2 (could be -4, same reason as above)

3rd: -2 (could be -3)
Expand ...

You are right on the first rotation. Hopkins basket to tie it at 13 happened after Sanogo went on the court. The score was 19-14 when Clingan left the court. Other than briefly at 20-15, UConn never had a 5 point lead again the rest of the game. Ended up losing by 12, so UConn was -17 the rest of the way.

It is interesting that you are so wedded to more bad 3's from mediocre shooters that you are attacking two of UConn's best players to try to justify your position.
 
ColchVEGAS said:
Until Sanogo or Clingan can consistently stretch the D and hit foul line extended jumpers, the dual bigs is not good for the offense in long stretches. The paint is too clogged, closing any dribble penetration and making it easier to play defense because neither of them can offer the spacing Karaban offers. Our guards are having a tough time penetrating as it is.

All the offensive advantages we can see from dual bigs is negated on the other end because Sanogo cannot guard most 4s currently. Sure Clingan is a great rim protector, but we are not at the point where we can just funnel the opposing team to him like we did with Thabeet.
Expand ...

Everyone should write this on their whiteboard at work 1000 times:

We don't need more 3 attempts from mediocre shooters.

If you want more 3's, put more pressure on the basket. A post up is a higher percentage play than a penetration layup attempt. Ergo, we need more post up attempts.
 
.-.
nelsonmuntz said:
You are right on the first rotation. Hopkins basket to tie it at 13 happened after Sanogo went on the court. The score was 19-14 when Clingan left the court. Other than briefly at 20-15, UConn never had a 5 point lead again the rest of the game. Ended up losing by 12, so UConn was -17 the rest of the way.

It is interesting that you are so wedded to more bad 3's from mediocre shooters that you are attacking two of UConn's best players to try to justify your position.
Expand ...
I have made no such claims, someone asked what the plus minus was and I provided it. I said last night the Sanogo and Clingan lineups performed much better than I expected, and we should continue using it in small doses like we did yesterday
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Are you saying that the way basketball is played today is the apex and there will never be any further improvements in the game or strategy? Thanks for playing.

And yes, I am willing to say that my understanding of math and statistics is better than most NCAA coaches. I have some game when it comes to this topic. In fact, I think the vast majority of coaches do not understand conditional probability at all based on the way they coach. Basketball is just scratching the surface of understanding the related probabilities, both conditional and (somewhat) unconditional, of events in a basketball game. Coaches still believe in nonsense like that players get "hot" in their shooting. The "hot hand" fallacy was proven by a group of psychology professors almost 40 years ago.
Expand ...
No, I'm not saying that basketball as played today is the apex, please don't make up quotes for me. Thanks for the snark though.

And while I appreciate that you think you're better at understanding math and statistics than most NCAA coaches (I noticed you dropped the NBA claim at least), I'm willing to bet that almost everyone has someone on staff or consulted with someone who does understand it better than you. Hot hand strawman aside, you're not right here. The statistics don't back emphasizing centers on offense/shooting more 2's.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
You are right on the first rotation. Hopkins basket to tie it at 13 happened after Sanogo went on the court. The score was 19-14 when Clingan left the court. Other than briefly at 20-15, UConn never had a 5 point lead again the rest of the game. Ended up losing by 12, so UConn was -17 the rest of the way.

It is interesting that you are so wedded to more bad 3's from mediocre shooters that you are attacking two of UConn's best players to try to justify your position.
Expand ...
He's not attacking two UConn players, he's correcting the poster above who said they were +5 while in together when in reality they were in the negatives.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
You are right on the first rotation. Hopkins basket to tie it at 13 happened after Sanogo went on the court. The score was 19-14 when Clingan left the court. Other than briefly at 20-15, UConn never had a 5 point lead again the rest of the game. Ended up losing by 12, so UConn was -17 the rest of the way.

It is interesting that you are so wedded to more bad 3's from mediocre shooters that you are attacking two of UConn's best players to try to justify your position.
Expand ...
So, he simply posted facts answering my question about your erroneous information saying that Clingan and Sanogo went +5 while they were in, and that's attacking 2 of UConn's players?
 
.-.
If you crazy people want to see Clingan + Sanogo v. Creighton, that might not be the matchup.

Zero chance Sanogo can keep up with Kaluma, he’s like a slashing 4 who can hit from the outside.
 
CTBasketball said:
If you crazy people want to see Clingan + Sanogo v. Creighton, that might not be the matchup.

Zero chance Sanogo can keep up with Kaluma, he’s like a slashing 4 who can hit from the outside.
Expand ...
Kaluma can't dribble.
 
Drfla said:
So we should play Sanogo and Clingan together because it’s not worse than Karaban and Sanogo. At least Karaban spaces the floor bettter and opens things up more. I value of playing Sanogo and Clingan together would be if it makes us better not that it doesn’t make us any worse.
Expand ...
It’s not either or, it’s both combinations playing at different times. Karaban can’t play 40 so the DC / AS combo has to be better than other options available given matchups. Let the other team figure out how to defend it once it is refined.
 
navery12 said:
I have made no such claims, someone asked what the plus minus was and I provided it. I said last night the Sanogo and Clingan lineups performed much better than I expected, and we should continue using it in small doses like we did yesterday
Expand ...

I don't follow the posting of some of these other handles, so I can not speak to their intelligence, but you are smart enough to know that you are taking a position when you present information in a discussion.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I don't follow the posting of some of these other handles, so I can not speak to their intelligence, but you are smart enough to know that you are taking a position when you present information in a discussion.
Expand ...
Fair enough, then I'll just be clear here. No issue with playing Sanogo and Clingan together last night, and moving forward in some small doses
 
nelsonmuntz said:
I don't follow the posting of some of these other handles, so I can not speak to their intelligence, but you are smart enough to know that you are taking a position when you present information in a discussion.
Expand ...
ikr?
like saying Providence is a '5 and 15' league team?
 
.-.
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
168,258
Messages
4,560,157
Members
10,448
Latest member
MillerLitEd


Top Bottom