Rothstein on UConn

[intlzncster]

Fair enough, but you're not going to see that out of a lot of forwards in college unless they're lottery picks, which obviously Polley isn't.

I guess my real point was that, as a spot up shooter, I'd expect a higher percentage. Giffey was 42%, which is more what I'd think of as an elite spot up. If he's creating his own three, OK, percentage drops a bit. If that all makes sense.

I edited my post above, but was Polley even top 100 in the country in 3pt shooting? honest question. I don't have any idea.

 

[johnhuskies95]

I guess my real point was that, as a spot up shooter, I'd expect a higher percentage. Giffey was 42%, which is more what I'd think of as an elite spot up. If he's creating his own three, OK, percentage drops a bit. If that all makes sense.

I edited my post above, but was Polley even top 100 in the country in 3pt shooting? honest question. I don't have any idea.

He didn't have enough attempts to qualify last year but he would've been 77th in the country. A lot of the guys on the list are playing mid major or low major competition so I think he did pretty well.

 

[intlzncster]

He didn't have enough attempts to qualify last year but he would've been 77th in the country. A lot of the guys on the list are playing mid major or low major competition so I think he did pretty well.

Just so this doesn't get lost in the mix, I didn't say he was a bad or even average 3pt shooter. I had him as a 'good' 3pt shooter.

I'm just having trouble considering him elite in that dept.

 

[husky429]

Defintely not elite, but very good. 83rd percentile of qualified players on above average volume. Vital was actually elite last year: 92nd percentile on 90th percentile volume.

I can get on board with this. Very good seems a fair description--especially since none of it is off more than 1 dribble.

I still can believe how many people insist Vital was a gunner/inefficient/selfish last year. Even just in conversations with friends. The kid was a dynamite shooter and goes to war every single possession. He may be a few inches undersized, but the kid is the definition of a competitor.

 

[intlzncster]

Defintely not elite, but very good. 83rd percentile of qualified players on above average volume. Vital was actually elite last year: 92nd percentile on 90th percentile volume.

Some people on here just spit out their beer.

And you said better than I did what I meant about Polley.

 

[intlzncster]

I still can believe how many people insist Vital was a gunner/inefficient/selfish last year. Even just in conversations with friends. The kid was a dynamite shooter and goes to war every single possession. He may be a few inches undersized, but the kid is the definition of a competitor.

1. I think people are still scarred from years 1 and 2.
2. If AG/Jalen didn't go down, Vital might not have hit the skids like he did, played within himself, and we all might have a whole diff perspective on his game/role.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Just so this doesn't get lost in the mix, I didn't say he was a bad or even average 3pt shooter. I had him as a 'good' 3pt shooter.

I'm just having trouble considering him elite in that dept.

I think the line between very good(or even good) and elite is really difficult too. I'm just inclined to agree with @husky429 that 3 point shooting is extremely important in this day and age, and the value of it can't be overlooked. Considering the bench options we have right now at forward, Polley becomes particularly important.

 

[pj]

I can get on board with this. Very good seems a fair description--especially since none of it is off more than 1 dribble.

I still can believe how many people insist Vital was a gunner/inefficient/selfish last year. Even just in conversations with friends. The kid was a dynamite shooter and goes to war every single possession. He may be a few inches undersized, but the kid is the definition of a competitor.

Vital will be UConn's all time leading 3 point shooter when his career finishes, which is an incredible accomplishment.

If Polley can win a starting spot on the perimeter over Vital, it will be amazing. I hope he's improved enough that such a thing can even be considered.

 

[auror]

I think the line between very good(or even good) and elite is really difficult too. I'm just inclined to agree with @husky429 that 3 point shooting is extremely important in this day and age, and the value of it can't be overlooked. Considering the bench options we have right now at forward, Polley becomes particularly important.

Polley should be important as a stretch big for spacing and efficient scoring reasons. The problem is that he can't defend bigs or rebound. But he's a pretty good big wing defender. So really, he's not a stretch big. He's just a 3 that can't guard quick 3s. So we were playing essentially a 3 at the 4 and a 1.5 at the 3, and we didn't have enough size to deter people from driving and our rebounding suffered. Sid or anyone else not being defensively playable at the 4 was a big problem for us last year, obviously.

Akok & Bouknight should help fix those issues. Against teams with slow 3s (ala Cincinnati), we can play Polley at the 3 and be fine. Against teams with quick 3s, we can play Bouknight (or Sid if his defensive processing is improved). That plus Akok's general rim protection and 2nd year in the Hurley system should allow us to be a top 50 defensive team this year (we were 100+ last year).

 

[peyton1211]

We will win at least 25 games

 

[ToolzieFan]

He didn't have enough attempts to qualify last year but he would've been 77th in the country. A lot of the guys on the list are playing mid major or low major competition so I think he did pretty well.

Well, if you're going to put him in the rankings without enough attempts, you also need to consider every other player who doesn't have enough attempts to qualify. He wouldn't be 77th anymore.

I looked it up an KenPom.com. I believe the cutoff is 40% of team's minutes and two attempts per game to qualify. His 38% ranks 392nd in the country. He shot 38.3% in the conference, good for 16th, and 32.9% against Tier A and B opponents. He's obviously a well above-average shooter, but as others have noted, those threes are mainly open spot-up threes as opposed to shots he created for himself.

I like Tyler Polley. He improved a lot and had some excellent games last year. He's our second-best returning shooter, and I like having a shooter with his size. I'd hold off on calling him elite, though, and I don't see him starting over Vital. If he has really improved his defense and rebounding, he could be an awesome weapon whether he starts or comes off the bench. He might play a lot in a game where he's hot or not overmatched defensively, and Wilson could play more if we need defense, rebounding, and shot-blocking.

FWIW, I think Gilbert, Vital, Akok, and Carlton will definitely start, and that the last spot will come down to Bouknight, Polley, or Wilson. I'm looking forward to having a team that has legitimate depth again.

 

[pj]

FWIW, I think Gilbert, Vital, Akok, and Carlton will definitely start, and that the last spot will come down to Bouknight, Polley, or Wilson. I'm looking forward to having a team that has legitimate depth again.View attachment 46530

I agree with this except (a) I don't think Wilson is a serious contender against Bouknight or Polley at the 3 - I think Brendan Adams may have more chance to step up and compete with them than Sid; and (b) I think we'll mostly be playing 3-guard lineups which is most likely to be Gilbert-Vital-Bouknight but don't rule out Gaffney stepping up and earning significant minutes. If there is an injury among Gilbert, Vital, Bouknight we may see Gaffney starting some games.

 

[RayIsTheGOAT]

Brendan Adams. Watch out for this kid.

 

[Engineer90]

If anything, he'd take out Polley. I get that Vital is best suited to 6th man on a good team, but chemistry issues alone dictate that he'll probably start. Even if Bouk gets more minutes.

• Vital's our most passionate player, on a team of guys not known for their motors. He'll set the tone.
• He's an emotional dude. Being demoted from starting as a senior would have a negative impact imo. He'd take it poorly; that's just who he is. And it would filter down through the team.

I'm not sure you could replace Vital's defensive intensity with Bouk/Polley combo either.

You are 100% correct on the chemistry point. It amazes me how few people understand the importance of this. Unless a guy is a serious liability that will cause your team to start 0-10 in every game, give the older guy the start and especially if he is a risk of being a pouter. You can always pull him early and give the backup more minutes if that is what their contributions dictate. In fact, getting yanked can be as good of a teaching moment as not starting a guy.

Obviously there are limits to this approach. Like I said, you don't start anyone that will be a serious liability relative to the alternative. But, if they are close, choose seniority and chemistry.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I agree with this except (a) I don't think Wilson is a serious contender against Bouknight or Polley at the 3 - I think Brendan Adams may have more chance to step up and compete with them than Sid; and (b) I think we'll mostly be playing 3-guard lineups which is most likely to be Gilbert-Vital-Bouknight but don't rule out Gaffney stepping up and earning significant minutes. If there is an injury among Gilbert, Vital, Bouknight we may see Gaffney starting some games.

I wouldn’t consider Bouk at the 3 a three guard lineup. He’s a 2-3 at the college level. Adams too.

But if we see three small guards, Gilbert, Vital and Gaffney all in at the same time, it means our team sucks. That shouldn’t happen unless we are holding a lead late against a press. I don’t expect to see true 3 guard lineups often. I think Wilson is going to play and Polley will see time at the 3.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I think to be an elite 3pt shooter you've got to be able to do more than be a spot up shooter. Have to be able to create your own 3pt shot. Bazz was an elite 3pt shooter. He could take it off the bounce and pull up. Spot up. Do whatever.

Was he even Top 100? Serious question. I've no idea.

I think the most iconic thing about Bazz and that run, from a basketball standpoint (because there was “this is what happens when you ban us”), was him just casually walking to 28 feet at the top of the arc, and just bombing one right in your face with no regard for human life.

Kemba was magical
Bazz was a killer

 

[johnhuskies95]

Well, if you're going to put him in the rankings without enough attempts, you also need to consider every other player who doesn't have enough attempts to qualify. He wouldn't be 77th anymore.

I looked it up an KenPom.com. I believe the cutoff is 40% of team's minutes and two attempts per game to qualify. His 38% ranks 392nd in the country. He shot 38.3% in the conference, good for 16th, and 32.9% against Tier A and B opponents. He's obviously a well above-average shooter, but as others have noted, those threes are mainly open spot-up threes as opposed to shots he created for himself.

I like Tyler Polley. He improved a lot and had some excellent games last year. He's our second-best returning shooter, and I like having a shooter with his size. I'd hold off on calling him elite, though, and I don't see him starting over Vital. If he has really improved his defense and rebounding, he could be an awesome weapon whether he starts or comes off the bench. He might play a lot in a game where he's hot or not overmatched defensively, and Wilson could play more if we need defense, rebounding, and shot-blocking.

FWIW, I think Gilbert, Vital, Akok, and Carlton will definitely start, and that the last spot will come down to Bouknight, Polley, or Wilson. I'm looking forward to having a team that has legitimate depth again.View attachment 46530

The number of guys who can create their own shot from 3 at 6'8 is pretty small, so I can't hold that against him. Klay Thompson is probably the second best shooter on earth and he almost exclusively shoots off the catch. I understand that trying to create your own shot will bring your percentages down, but most of the guys who play Polley's position are taking the same exact type of shots as him.

 

[UconnU]

CV is absolutely starting, so is Bouk. In the American you can easily get away with playing 3 guards especially if one of them is a long 6’4/6’5 like Bouk. The competition is at the 4 between Akok and an improved Polley. I think Polley starts but akok gets a ton of minutes between the 4 and the 5. Polley isn’t playing the 3, his foot speed isn’t up to par.

 

[intlzncster]

CV is absolutely starting, so is Bouk. In the American you can easily get away with playing 3 guards especially if one of them is a long 6’4/6’5 like Bouk. The competition is at the 4 between Akok and an improved Polley. I think Polley starts but akok gets a ton of minutes between the 4 and the 5. Polley isn’t playing the 3, his foot speed isn’t up to par.

Honestly this is no competition. Akok finally, finally, gives us what we need down there. Rim protecting, rebound, motor guy. Who might be able to score a little.

With Carlton's improvement, we're not needing a scoring PF.

 

[SubbaBub]

Vital isn’t not starting

Huge mistake unless he shows he is way better. Handing a starting spot to a true frosh over your leader is stupid. Minutes will vary, but CV will be on the floor at the start until someone takes it from him.

I'd like to see them try.

 

[intlzncster]

Huge mistake unless he shows he is way better. Handing a starting spot to a true frosh over your leader is stupid. Minutes will vary, but CV will be on the floor at the start until someone takes it from him.

I'd like to see them try.

You are arguing the same thing as him.

 

[Shine33]

Huge mistake unless he shows he is way better. Handing a starting spot to a true frosh over your leader is stupid. Minutes will vary, but CV will be on the floor at the start until someone takes it from him.

I'd like to see them try.

Real leaders possess humility. If CV has to defer his minutes to a youngster with more talent, which could very well be the case, a true leader does what is best for the TEAM.

CV lacks ballhanding, slashing skills, court vision (assist to TO ratio is not good) and ability to create open shots and space for himself off the dribble. All extremely important skills for a 2 guard. In crunch time, we might need to put Bouk or Gaffney out there instead, not saying it’s a sure thing, but may be the case.

Sick of all the CV groupies here getting butt hurt over one player. We are team first and a team that needs to win. Leadership should not equate to starting or taking up the most minutes. It’s doing whatever is needed for the team and doing it with enthusiasm.

When I was a senior in high school I had to defer minutes to someone who was better than me. I still played a lot but it was a hard pill to swallow and I didn’t get butt hurt about it. Our whole team benefitted and we went much further bc of it

 

[superjohn]

Huge mistake unless he shows he is way better. Handing a starting spot to a true frosh over your leader is stupid. Minutes will vary, but CV will be on the floor at the start until someone takes it from him.

I'd like to see them try.

Vital isn't our leader.

 

[auror]

CV lacks ballhanding, slashing skills, court vision (assist to TO ratio is not good) and ability to create open shots and space for himself off the dribble. All extremely important skills for a 2 guard. In crunch time, we might need to put Bouk or Gaffney out there instead, not saying it’s a sure thing, but may be the case.

His vision and assist numbers were fine for a 2G playing alongside 2 point guards for most of the season. He's a shooter, not a slasher (even though he finished decently well around the rim last year for his height... much, much better than Gilbert for example). That's okay. We have and had other slashers. To be an elite 2G, yeah maybe you have to be able to do those things at a high level. To be a competent starting 2G for a tournament team from the American, he doesn't need to be elite at those things if he shoots 40% from 3 on a good volume and rebounds the heck out of the ball and draws fouls when he does slash.

He's not going to be here when we push for the Sweet 16 the following year, so I'm not going to hold him to championship 2G standards when the rest of the team this year won't be ready. If Hurley decides he wants to play/start the guys this year that will still be here next year, that's a totally fair choice and maybe even the right one. But VItal will definitely be one of our 5 best players this upcoming year.

 

[Shine33]

His vision and assist numbers were fine for a 2G playing alongside 2 point guards for most of the season. He's a shooter, not a slasher (even though he finished decently well around the rim last year for his height... much, much better than Gilbert for example). That's okay. We have and had other slashers. To be an elite 2G, yeah maybe you have to be able to do those things at a high level. To be a competent starting 2G for a tournament team from the American, he doesn't need to be elite at those things if he shoots 40% from 3 on a good volume and rebounds the heck out of the ball and draws fouls when he does slash.

He's not going to be here when we push for the Sweet 16 the following year, so I'm not going to hold him to championship 2G standards when the rest of the team this year won't be ready. If Hurley decides he wants to play/start the guys this year that will still be here next year, that's a totally fair choice and maybe even the right one. But VItal will definitely be one of our 5 best players this upcoming year.

Nothing that you said that I don’t agree with, my point was, if he needs to defer minutes at any point bc other players can do certain things better than he can, he should do so willingly with enthusiasm. I believe it was a quote by Abe Lincoln who said that great leaders also know their limitations. I just want to see team first players not me first players. I think CV will be that

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Vital isn't our leader.

Then who is?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Then who is?

Gilbert.

 

[Hey Adrien!]

Here's what I love about this team. No, I don't agree that will be the starting lineup, but we have seven legit guys who are candidates to start.

My $$$ is on Gilbert-Vital-Polley-Akok-Carlton. Enough shooting to play 4 out/1 in and enough size to play 3 out/2 in, plus your 3 is 6'9.

 

[intlzncster]

Nothing that you said that I don’t agree with, my point was, if he needs to defer minutes at any point bc other players can do certain things better than he can, he should do so willingly with enthusiasm. I believe it was a quote by Abe Lincoln who said that great leaders also know their limitations. I just want to see team first players not me first players. I think CV will be that

In a vacuum, sure. But in dealing with real people, you've got to consider his personality. There's zero chance of the bold with regards to Vital.

It doesn't seem to be a common trait among kids these days in general.

 

[jibsey]

Brendan Adams. Watch out for this kid.

We been watching for 2 years , and not seeing that much. Can we have a hint?