Petiti verbalizing contraction (Ross Dellenger article)

[billybud]

With the 80%-20% split in the ACC...Duke and UNC received $ 7.38 million last year from ESPN for basketball....same as all ACC programs.

The ACC's teams in the 2022 tournament earned #36.4 million payable over six years ($6 million per year)..and that is added to previous and future torney earnings. 2023...$24 million

 

[billybud]

In 2023 the BE earned $30 million in tournament payouts

 

[JohnFSilver]

I think you're conflating several issues/situations. Do you have data to back up the arguement that Connecticut fans love St Peter's/cinderellas more than the rest of the country? Yes, the power programs will drive higher ratings but I think the backdrop of the madness is what makes the tournament so compelling and therefore valuable.

Yes, money is driving decisions in football but March Madness is a different situation - especially since its revenues are tied into funding D2, D3, and lower D1 athletics' very existence. It's going to be interesting to see if major economic changes are made to March Madness, which is a BILLION dollar enterprise in and of itself.

My data is anecdotal, this board and UConn fans that are adamant that the Big East, men’s basketball and the NCAA tournament is immune to the Death Star of college football.

We keep mentioning that they won’t mess with the billions of the NCAA tournament. They won’t mess with the billions, they are just going to take it for themselves.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

My data is anecdotal, this board and UConn fans that are adamant that the Big East, men’s basketball and the NCAA tournament is immune to the Death Star of college football.

We keep mentioning that they won’t mess with the billions of the NCAA tournament. They won’t mess with the billions, they are just going to take it for themselves.

I think it's going to take an incredible act of greed and arrogance for anyone (conferences/schools) to knowingly kill athletics at non-power institutions by simply redirecting all the money that March Madness creates. Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved and I don't think any university president would want to face that wrath under a microscope.

 

[Hondo 77]

I think it's going to take an incredible act of greed and arrogance for anyone (conferences/schools) to knowingly kill athletics at non-power institutions by simply redirecting all the money that March Madness creates. Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved and I don't think any university president would want to face that wrath under a microscope.

How many Congressmen are in states with Power conference teams?

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

How many Congressmen are in states with Power conference teams?

A lot. And those same Congress members will have both power conference and non-power conference institutions in their realm. A sticky mess of a scenario for sure.

 

[CL82]

I think it's going to take an incredible act of greed and arrogance for anyone (conferences/schools) to knowingly kill athletics at non-power institutions by simply redirecting all the money that March Madness creates. Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved and I don't think any university president would want to face that wrath under a microscope.

I doubt it.

 

[Zissou]

I think it's going to take an incredible act of greed and arrogance for anyone (conferences/schools) to knowingly kill athletics at non-power institutions by simply redirecting all the money that March Madness creates. Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved and I don't think any university president would want to face that wrath under a microscope.

Football did it years ago. Why not basketball?

 

[ScottVib]

A lot. And those same Congress members will have both power conference and non-power conference institutions in their realm. A sticky mess of a scenario for sure.

Right now we're already seeing no one sticking their neck out for Washington State or Oregon State, given that Washington & Oregon are safe. No one in California stood up for Cal when they were left out in the cold as UCLA moved on.... but we're supposed to buy that someone is going to stand up for Dayton at the expense of running afoul of Ohio State? Or move to benefit FAU at the expense of Florida or Florida State?

The P4 is big enough and there are so few senators/congressmen prominent enough to force a situation the way Orrin Hatch did as he tried to protect Utah. Had Utah been in the Pac-12 or Big XII (or whatever they'll be named) back then, he never would've stood up then either.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Football did it years ago. Why not basketball?

Because it's a different scenario in the sense that no one cares when the rich get richer amongst themselves but when the rich shake down the sisters of the poor that's when people have an issue?

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

I doubt it.

You doubt what?

 

[CL82]

You doubt what?

"Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved"

That seems very unlikely to me.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

"Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved"

That seems very unlikely to me.

Oh, I'm not saying they would necessarily have in-person hearings but I can see them applying pressure on their in-state institutions if needed. Take MA for example - how would it go down with all the non-power schools if BC would be part of the power schools pushing for what would jeopardize all the other MA schools' athletic programs? This could play out similarly in numerous other states (likely more severely in blue states than red)... I think the whole thing would be avoided anyway - primarily because most university presidents play nice with each other as they all belong to the same "club" and know their careers as chief executives are bettered if they don't piss off other institutions.

 

[JohnFSilver]

I think it's going to take an incredible act of greed and arrogance for anyone (conferences/schools) to knowingly kill athletics at non-power institutions by simply redirecting all the money that March Madness creates. Seems like Congress would (have to) get involved and I don't think any university president would want to face that wrath under a microscope.

Guys…football money left Stanford and California athletics — two academic supernovas with massively influential alumni and outsized power— and these schools had to BEG to get into the ACC only after a former Secretary of State and a former president of the United States got involved.

And they had to come in and beg.

Can you guys guess what is the largest state, in terms of population (which determines size of house delegation), that does not have a Power 5 team playing within its borders?

Please. You guys get only one guess at this.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Guys…football money left Stanford and California athletics — two academic supernovas with massively influential alumni and outsized power— and these schools had to BEG to get into the ACC only after a former Secretary of State and a former president of the United States got involved.

And they had to come in and beg.

Can you guys guess what is the largest state, in terms of population (which determines size of house delegation), that does not have a Power 5 team playing within its borders?

Please. You guys get only one guess at this.

Not sure what your point is, but here's mine:

1. There are almost 1,100 non power schools that have athletic programs across the country as opposed to the 40 or so power schools.
2. The combined athletic budgets of the non power schools would all be in jeopardy. The total of those budgets is about $20 billion.
3. Thousands of direct and indirect jobs would be at stake if non power schools' athletic programs died.
4. By using a multiplier effect to points 2 and 3, the economic impact would be immense.
5. Beyond economics, can you imagine the pressure applied by individuals who donate to colleges/alma maters AND state and federal politicians?
6. Beyond the donors, I think there'd be a lot of political pressure applied to hundreds of congress people at both the state and federal levels.
7. There'd be enough people in the college athletic industry facing job loss that I think would be desperate enough to start spilling beans about power school shenanigans.

At some point, the power schools would have to back down.

 

[JohnFSilver]

Not sure what your point is, but here's mine:

1. There are almost 1,100 non power schools that have athletic programs across the country as opposed to the 40 or so power schools.
2. The combined athletic budgets of the non power schools would all be in jeopardy. The total of those budgets is about $20 billion.
3. Thousands of direct and indirect jobs would be at stake if non power schools' athletic programs died.
4. By using a multiplier effect to points 2 and 3, the economic impact would be immense.
5. Beyond economics, can you imagine the pressure applied by individuals who donate to colleges/alma maters AND state and federal politicians?
6. Beyond the donors, I think there'd be a lot of political pressure applied to hundreds of congress people at both the state and federal levels.
7. There'd be enough people in the college athletic industry facing job loss that I think would be desperate enough to start spilling beans about power school shenanigans.

At some point, the power schools would have to back down.

No chance.

The smaller schools are not the people who generate the revenue. I mean, colleges could even decide to go for profit and set up their own college league and pay players.

There is so much money out there for this. This is like global climate change. We have sounded the alarm so much over the last 30 years now that it is here we don’t even recognize it. Lol.

If I told you in 1998 that the college landscape would look like it does, you would have said I was a moron.

But, it’s because it isn’t done yet. This is a consolidation period for athletics. It’s nearing completion. Once we find out who is included, what the money is and how it will be cut, then they will get back to how they will be organized.

And, so do I believe the big east would be included for its basketball? I do, in its current form. That is, until it isn’t.

What happens if big 12 says, Gonzaga, St. John’s, Villanova, Georgetown—- come join our basketball super leagues we are going to sell it for huge money.

Do those 4 schools say no to joining Big 12 for more than they could get in big east?

 

[Zissou]

Not sure what your point is, but here's mine:

1. There are almost 1,100 non power schools that have athletic programs across the country as opposed to the 40 or so power schools.

Why should hoops pay for that and not football?

 

[noeynox]

1) A top tier of Football breaks away from the NCAA:

Initiated by the Big Ten and the SEC, all of their members are in for 34 teams total.

Big Ten - 18
SEC - 16

They add another 16 to this level (not to their conferences) by invitation, to get to 50. This list would include Notre Dame and Clemson, and vigorous debate would round out the list.

Their are a few programs in the P2 that are included that upset arguing fans, but life is not fair and the P2 isn’t kicking members to the curb.

This football system is driven by cash, is profitable, and pays players six figures as they develop towards their NFL goals.

The remaining 80 FBS football teams remain in the NCAA and compete in their own CFP. The proceeds from TV and playoffs fund athletic programs and governance. Players can earn honest NIL but school programs aren’t backing player salaries.

2) Separately, a top tier of Basketball breaks away from the NCAA. B12, B1G, Big East, ACC, WCC, PAC (?), A10, AAC.

The resulting tournament distributes its earnings to these programs, a huge increase from the current model where the NCAA eats the profits.

Like the football model, this is a for-profit league with players paid 6 figures.

3) The NCAA is reduced and returned to a governing body of student athletes. No longer funded by big money, it regulates fair play and governs championships across all sports, except the money basketball and football leagues.

Outside of Basketball and Football, the power conferences remain in the NCAA.

What network pays top dollar for the NIT or FCS playoffs?

 

[CL82]

Oh, I'm not saying they would necessarily have in-person hearings but I can see them applying pressure on their in-state institutions if needed. Take MA for example - how would it go down with all the non-power schools if BC would be part of the power schools pushing for what would jeopardize all the other MA schools' athletic programs? This could play out similarly in numerous other states (likely more severely in blue states than red)... I think the whole thing would be avoided anyway - primarily because most university presidents play nice with each other as they all belong to the same "club" and know their careers as chief executives are bettered if they don't piss off other institutions.

I doubt it.

 

[billybud]

For most larger schools, it is the football revenue that supports the non revenue programs...when football revenue diminishes, schools have cut non revenue sports.

UConn is an outlier...in 2022 the Athletic Department expenses were 23% higher than the FBS median,,,but Institutional-Government Support and Student Fees accounted for more than half that revenue.

University of Connecticut | College Athletics Database

 

[billybud]

As a comparison....revenue sources (average) for ACC AD's...(note...privates, Duke, BC, etc are not included in data base..only public)

Atlantic Coast Conference | College Athletics Database

 

[ScottVib]

Not sure what your point is, but here's mine:

1. There are almost 1,100 non power schools that have athletic programs across the country as opposed to the 40 or so power schools.

1000 of those schools combined have a fan base that would fit seats left empty at a BC game. Those fans in general support other, larger schools more fervently.

There is no Congress person who wants to go back to Ohio or Texas as the person who denied OSU or the Longhorns what they wanted. That fan (voter) base dwarfs all the rest combined. There’s no win standing up for the little guy, when you can’t sell it as a win for your constituents.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

1000 of those schools combined have a fan base that would fit seats left empty at a BC game. Those fans in general support other, larger schools more fervently.

There is no Congress person who wants to go back to Ohio or Texas as the person who denied OSU or the Longhorns what they wanted. That fan (voter) base dwarfs all the rest combined. There’s no win standing up for the little guy, when you can’t sell it as a win for your constituents.

Not sure about that... I don't believe it's about butts in seats at a football game...I think it is more about people getting fed up with big time college sports at expense of the little guy... but let's look at Ohio college enrollments:

Power schools:
Ohio State: 70,000
Cincinnati: 45,000
Total of 115,000

Non power schools with D1 mid major athletics:
Miami: 20,000
Kent State: 40,000
Ohio: 30,000
Bowling Green: 20,000
Akron: 25,000
Toledo: 20,000
Total: 145,000

Then, add in all the lower D1, D2, and D3 schools. That's a lot of voters for politicians to hear from.
Politicians are going to slow play any changes that risk toppling any industry/major issue. They are risk averse because they want to keep getting elected.

I just don't see a scenario of killing athletics in non- top 40 schools all across America.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

Why should hoops pay for that and not football?

I'm not sure how it all went down, but maybe the thinking was that far more schools play basketball than football so spread the money from basketball out to the non-football world?

 

[Kolumbo]

Guys…football money left Stanford and California athletics — two academic supernovas with massively influential alumni and outsized power— and these schools had to BEG to get into the ACC only after a former Secretary of State and a former president of the United States got involved.

And they had to come in and beg.

Can you guys guess what is the largest state, in terms of population (which determines size of house delegation), that does not have a Power 5 team playing within its borders?

Please. You guys get only one guess at this.

Connecticut

New York is also an odd-ball given its size and being represented by only the fruit.
The New England region of course under-represented with only BCU