Petiti verbalizing contraction (Ross Dellenger article)

[billybud]

The big names are still the draws..

2023...

So after getting a dream Final Four field last year, CBS and Turner Sports have something very different this weekend with Florida Atlantic, Miami, San Diego State and UConn making it to Houston.

"The public is telling us that they would rather see the blue bloods," said former CBS Sports president Neal Pilson, who now runs his own sports television consulting company. "The ratings support that. I think it's because they're not familiar with teams like San Diego State, Miami or FAU. There was relatively little press attention paid to those teams during the year. Connecticut has a history, but they're the only one of the four that really has had national exposure."

Last year's Final Four of Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and Villanova resonated even with casual fans because it was loaded with national brands while also being Mike Krzyzewski's final tournament as the Blue Devils' coach. And so two of last year's Final Four contests rank among the three most-watched college basketball games in cable TV history. The semifinal matchup between North Carolina and Duke averaged 18.5 million on TBS and ranks second, while Kansas' comeback victory over North Carolina in the title game averaged 18.1 million.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

No one cares about the cinderellas. Us fans up here in Connecticut, for too long, have looked at things with these kids glasses on.

Gotta look at this landscape as an adult. This isn’t milk and cookies anymore.

I love the Cinderellas, once they become so. I don't do the bracket pools, so I always cheer for the small schools in the first round...against schools or conferences I don't like. Who doesn't love a 16 beating a 1 or a 15 beating a 2? I think saying no one cares about Cinderellas is a stretch. People everywhere like Cinderellas and it is a key aspect to the early enjoyment of the tourney. FDU taking out Purdue was great. FL Atlantic in the final 4.

 

[CL82]

I think the point is that while the fans of the blue bloods/higher aspiration program fans don't care as much about Cinderellas, the rest of the country does and ALL of those eyeballs are what makes March Madness so profitable.

People do like to root for an underdog. Here's the thing though, whoever is the lowest ranked team will be the Cinderella. It doesn't necessarily have to be alone major who's never made it to the tournament before.

 

[ScottVib]

I think the point is that while the fans of the blue bloods/higher aspiration program fans don't care as much about Cinderellas, the rest of the country does and ALL of those eyeballs are what makes March Madness so profitable.

The ratings when those Cinderellas advance past the opening weekend say otherwise.

 

[JohnFSilver]

I think the point is that while the fans of the blue bloods/higher aspiration program fans don't care as much about Cinderellas, the rest of the country does and ALL of those eyeballs are what makes March Madness so profitable.

The rest of the country doesn’t. Only UConn fans, it seems, cares about the charms of St. Peter’s.

What makes March madness profitable is the sweet 16 and on, including the Final Four. Power programs drive ratings.

I don’t want to sound cranky. It’s time for us to see this with clear eyes. If you think the powers that be won’t do it, then you haven’t been paying attention.

Nothing is sacrosanct. They just destroyed the Pac-12 conference and the Rose Bowl.

 

[Ldandy]

The ratings when those Cinderellas advance past the opening weekend say otherwise.

People love Cinderellas when they're pulling off last second upsets of overrated teams in the opening weekend. There's often some quirky human-interest story that gets attached to the team which furthers public interest. That being said nobody wants to watch a Final Four comprised of games like Florida Gulf Coast playing Loyola Chicago for the opportunity to meet the winner of San Diego State vs. Creighton. The ratings would be absolutely abysmal. In the second week the tournament requires the likes of UNC, Kansas, Duke etc.

 

[Ldandy]

Two points here.

1. Ncaa is all about Cinderella's? Not really. It’s fun. Yes, St. Peter/Loyola captured some heart, but that is one weekend a year. No one puts up with the 360 team monstrous governing structure for all sports to preserve two days of basketball.

Again. Overstating hoops too much. The people are gonna watch what ever is on the tv.

2. FBS. I think they may drop it to 80-90. That bottom 30 is a problem. Probably should go to two divisions of FBS with a way to, over multiple years, work your way up to the premier division like soccer. Or if you suck, move down.

I don't think we will ever see relegation come to college sports, but there needs to be a hard reset from the current format. Just like when Div 1A and1AA were separated, it's ridiculous to think that Alabama and Alabama Birmingham are competing for the same thing.

One program is willing to spend whatever it takes to compete for the national title every season, the other is just praying that they get enough payday road games on their schedule in order to support their athletic department. It's a completely broken system and it no longer makes sense to continue it.

Separate into two divisions. The first will be 60-80 schools that meet certain requirements such as attendance, stadium size, willingness to pay cost of attendance, size of AD, whatever makes sense and have those schools compete primarily against each other and in their own Divisional National Championship. The remaining schools, primarily all G5 do the same. Who cares if The B1G/SEC allow a G5 Representative into a 12 Team Playoff annually. They are not winning it, next year or 100 years from now.

Why not have a tournament where you end up with a competitive final four of teams like Boise St, Coastal Carolina, Army, and SDSU? It's good for TV as you have more product to sell, and it's good for the teams because they are actually competing for something real and will receive the lion's share of the proceeds from the second tournament.

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

The ratings when those Cinderellas advance past the opening weekend say otherwise.

I agree that once Cinderella gets into the final four it might have a negative effect but perhaps only when comparing TV ratings to a FF or Final matchup containing two bluebloods.

 

[CL82]

I don't think we will ever see relegation come to college sports, but there needs to be a hard reset from the current format. Just like when Div 1A and1AA were separated, it's ridiculous to think that Alabama and Alabama Birmingham are competing for the same thing.

One program is willing to spend whatever it takes to compete for the national title every season, the other is just praying that they get enough payday road games on their schedule in order to support their athletic department. It's a completely broken system and it no longer makes sense to continue it.

Separate into two divisions. The first will be 60-80 schools that meet certain requirements such as attendance, stadium size, willingness to pay cost of attendance, size of AD, whatever makes sense and have those schools compete primarily against each other and in their own Divisional National Championship. The remaining schools, primarily all G5 do the same. Who cares if The B1G/SEC allow a G5 Representative into a 12 Team Playoff annually. They are not winning it, next year or 100 years from now.

Why not have a tournament where you end up with a competitive final four of teams like Boise St, Coastal Carolina, Army, and SDSU? It's good for TV as you have more product to sell, and it's good for the teams because they are actually competing for something real and will receive the lion's share of the proceeds from the second tournament.

Isn't separating into two divisions de facto relegation albeit a voluntary one?

 

[CTFAN4LIFE]

The rest of the country doesn’t. Only UConn fans, it seems, cares about the charms of St. Peter’s.

What makes March madness profitable is the sweet 16 and on, including the Final Four. Power programs drive ratings.

I don’t want to sound cranky. It’s time for us to see this with clear eyes. If you think the powers that be won’t do it, then you haven’t been paying attention.

Nothing is sacrosanct. They just destroyed the Pac-12 conference and the Rose Bowl.

I think you're conflating several issues/situations. Do you have data to back up the arguement that Connecticut fans love St Peter's/cinderellas more than the rest of the country? Yes, the power programs will drive higher ratings but I think the backdrop of the madness is what makes the tournament so compelling and therefore valuable.

Yes, money is driving decisions in football but March Madness is a different situation - especially since its revenues are tied into funding D2, D3, and lower D1 athletics' very existence. It's going to be interesting to see if major economic changes are made to March Madness, which is a BILLION dollar enterprise in and of itself.

 

[Hoophound]

The big names are still the draws..

2023...

So after getting a dream Final Four field last year, CBS and Turner Sports have something very different this weekend with Florida Atlantic, Miami, San Diego State and UConn making it to Houston.

"The public is telling us that they would rather see the blue bloods," said former CBS Sports president Neal Pilson, who now runs his own sports television consulting company. "The ratings support that. I think it's because they're not familiar with teams like San Diego State, Miami or FAU. There was relatively little press attention paid to those teams during the year. Connecticut has a history, but they're the only one of the four that really has had national exposure."

Last year's Final Four of Duke, North Carolina, Kansas and Villanova resonated even with casual fans because it was loaded with national brands while also being Mike Krzyzewski's final tournament as the Blue Devils' coach. And so two of last year's Final Four contests rank among the three most-watched college basketball games in cable TV history. The semifinal matchup between North Carolina and Duke averaged 18.5 million on TBS and ranks second, while Kansas' comeback victory over North Carolina in the title game averaged 18.1 million.

I agree that people want big names in the Final Four, but they don’t want them in the early rounds. The madness is the first 2-3 rounds, then we settle in to wanting to see a high powered matchup. Last year was particularly rare with FAU and SDSU making it, but it may be the new normal. Loyola Chicago and FAU were the biggest surprises since George Mason.

 

[billybud]

I agree that people want big names in the Final Four, but they don’t want them in the early rounds. The madness is the first 2-3 rounds, then we settle in to wanting to see a high powered matchup. Last year was particularly rare with FAU and SDSU making it, but it may be the new normal. Loyola Chicago and FAU were the biggest surprises since George Mason.

Hmm...there are early football upsets as well....last season, Week Two...Marshall beats #8 Notre Dame, Georgia Southern over Nebraska....and then Appy State beats #6 Texas A&M.

But the viewing isn't world beating.

 

[Ldandy]

Isn't separating into two divisions de facto relegation albeit a voluntary one?

I get what you are saying but I meant more in the sense of English Soccer with programs moving up and down on a regular basis. I understand that mine might not be a popular opinion here, and that’s ok. I just feel that is better to be honest about the differences between a program like OSU and Ohio.

Let the kids at a school like Ohio actually compete for something instead of the sum total of their college experience being playing in front of 10k fans on a Tuesday Night and getting to be some P4’s Homecoming Game.

 

[Hoophound]

Hmm...there are early football upsets as well....last season, Week Two...Marshall beats #8 Notre Dame, Georgia Southern over Nebraska....and then Appy State beats #6 Texas A&M.

But the viewing isn't world beating.

That’s a night and day comparison. The early rounds of the tourney are viewed heavily.

No one cares about App St beating Michigan or A&M until it’s happened.

 

[billybud]

Yet 2.8 million watched Appalachian State-Texas A&M...and 2.48 million watched Marshall-Notre Dame.

Not near as many viewers as the Knight's win over Purdue in the Tourney (the best draw in that round in 10 years) but not that shabby.

The tourney is condensed into a short time period while football is a longer haul. Sort of a longer elimination. The 12 team CFP will draw big numbers as it becomes the final rounds of a tournament for for football.

 

[ScottVib]

I agree that people want big names in the Final Four, but they don’t want them in the early rounds. The madness is the first 2-3 rounds, then we settle in to wanting to see a high powered matchup. Last year was particularly rare with FAU and SDSU making it, but it may be the new normal. Loyola Chicago and FAU were the biggest surprises since George Mason.

If the new normal features FAU and San Diego State level teams (but not the same teams year over year (essentially creating no new 'blue bloods) cycling through year over year the ratings will crater and the value of the rights deal will plummet at the next renewal. If anything that new normal would be a bigger impetus for the P4 split to be complete and include basketball.

 

[Drew]

I love that we’re talking about contraction and people think Richmond, Drake, and Seton Hall are making the cut.


Teams like Ole Miss and Minnesota might get cut- you’re out of your mind if you think teams with FCS programs or no team at all will be affiliated with the top collegiate athletics tier

 

[Patman]

Cutting out low d1 is more about trying extract more dollars away from the ncaa tournament itself to the power schools.

Real contraction is when the big10 sheds schools like northwestern

 

[Zissou]

1) A top tier of Football breaks away from the NCAA:

Initiated by the Big Ten and the SEC, all of their members are in for 34 teams total.

Big Ten - 18
SEC - 16

They add another 16 to this level (not to their conferences) by invitation, to get to 50. This list would include Notre Dame and Clemson, and vigorous debate would round out the list.

Their are a few programs in the P2 that are included that upset arguing fans, but life is not fair and the P2 isn’t kicking members to the curb.

This football system is driven by cash, is profitable, and pays players six figures as they develop towards their NFL goals.

The remaining 80 FBS football teams remain in the NCAA and compete in their own CFP. The proceeds from TV and playoffs fund athletic programs and governance. Players can earn honest NIL but school programs aren’t backing player salaries.

2) Separately, a top tier of Basketball breaks away from the NCAA. B12, B1G, Big East, ACC, WCC, PAC (?), A10, AAC.

The resulting tournament distributes its earnings to these programs, a huge increase from the current model where the NCAA eats the profits.

Like the football model, this is a for-profit league with players paid 6 figures.

3) The NCAA is reduced and returned to a governing body of student athletes. No longer funded by big money, it regulates fair play and governs championships across all sports, except the money basketball and football leagues.

Outside of Basketball and Football, the power conferences remain in the NCAA.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

1) A top tier of Football breaks away from the NCAA:

Initiated by the Big Ten and the SEC, all of their members are in for 34 teams total.

Big Ten - 18
SEC - 16

They add another 16 to this level (not to their conferences) by invitation, to get to 50. This list would include Notre Dame and Clemson, and vigorous debate would round out the list.

Their are a few programs in the P2 that are included that upset arguing fans, but life is not fair and the P2 isn’t kicking members to the curb.

This football system is driven by cash, is profitable, and pays players six figures as they develop towards their NFL goals.

The remaining 80 FBS football teams remain in the NCAA and compete in their own CFP. The proceeds from TV and playoffs fund athletic programs and governance. Players can earn honest NIL but school programs aren’t backing player salaries.

2) Separately, a top tier of Basketball breaks away from the NCAA. B12, B1G, Big East, ACC, WCC, PAC (?), A10, AAC.

The resulting tournament distributes its earnings to these programs, a huge increase from the current model where the NCAA eats the profits.

Like the football model, this is a for-profit league with players paid 6 figures.

3) The NCAA is reduced and returned to a governing body of student athletes. No longer funded by big money, it regulates fair play and governs championships across all sports, except the money basketball and football leagues.

Outside of Basketball and Football, the power conferences remain in the NCAA.

You do realize without men's Basketball their are no NCAA Championships
No track, Hockey , Wrestling , Golf ,Tennis, Lacrosse, Soccer , or even Frisbee
Forget women's sports all together , I’m sure that will go over well .
maybe each each sport could have a Go Fund
Me account.

 

[Patman]

You do realize without men's Basketball their are no NCAA Championships
No track, Hockey , Wrestling , Golf ,Tennis, Lacrosse, Soccer , or even Frisbee
Forget women's sports all together , I’m sure that will go over well .
maybe each each sport could have a Go Fund
Me account.

people don't realize that running the other sports tournaments are pricey. It would then fall back on the member schools to fund them. Now what that means exactly, I honestly don't know.

On the other hand, I suspect a lot of NCAA money goes back into self-marketing and self-dealing of corporate officers and the like.

 

[CL82]

You do realize without men's Basketball their are no NCAA Championships
No track, Hockey , Wrestling , Golf ,Tennis, Lacrosse, Soccer , or even Frisbee
Forget women's sports all together , I’m sure that will go over well .
maybe each each sport could have a Go Fund
Me account.

Funding those championships through the NCAA isn't the only way that they could be held. The NCAA has grown to be a bloated organization. It is inefficient both in terms of administration and "enforcement". As we have seen most recently with the Kansas non-penalty, it's enforcement arm is, at best, selective. It is time for it to go.

 

[BigTenFan]

Most of the funding for non revenue sports comes from Football/Network rights
It would be interesting to know what BB revenue delivers to a typical top 50 school

 

[CL82]

Most of the funding for non revenue sports comes from Football/Network rights
It would be interesting to know what BB revenue delivers to a typical top 50 school

Esspecially if those numbers were generated based upon sharing March madness revenue among participating schools just the way it is done for the college football playoff rather than being used to pay for the NCAA, and nonrevenue sports championships including D2 and D3. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison.