Paterno and Spanier both fired! | Page 5 | The Boneyard

Paterno and Spanier both fired!

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speedoo

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Moody's Investor's Service is reviewing PSU's debt rating, currently the second strongest, I believe. They have $1 billion in debt.

I'm sure S&P will also review their rating, and if these agencies conclude costly civil suits are likely to succeed, PSU's debt will become more expensive.
 

intlzncster

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Agreed, from what I am hearing (ESPN, Sports Talk radio, etc) from coaches, coaching staffs are very tight. They would talk and know about something like this. Maybe not formally, but as has been said, they hunt, fish together, go on recruiting trips together, families vacation together, etc. Might be more than 99.999999%.

How could someone go on vacation with their family and Sandusky, knowing what they know? It's beyond me. I wouldn't have let my kids within 100 yards of the guy.
 

intlzncster

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I didn't say women were morally superior to men. I agree that it's about power, prestige, and money. So, who has all 3, especially at PSU and Ftball? Men.

My pt was women and men ARE different, and IF more women were in power, (in catholic church and higher ed), things may be different. You don't think our instincts and reactions and behaviors to situations, especially those affecting children are different? Jaycee Dugard story is prime example. All the male parole officers missed it for years and years, but 2 women spotted something amiss and acted on it.

Of course men and women are different, but I'd argue that the women who rise up in such powerful organizations, are often just as cold blooded and avaricious as the men in those positions (or become so). Say a woman was president, she'd be answering to billions of dollars from donors more than she would her moral view point. Or she'd be out on the street as soon as you can blink, and probably ruined. Same for a man. Wealth and power quite often trump moral standards for both women and men.

The Jaycee Dugard thing is totally different, as the two women weren't in a position of considerable power and didn't have to cut heads to get there, nor scrap with others trying to take their stations once there. They were not beholden to billionaires' whims.
 

JS

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What if Joe was told the exact same thing.
What if pigs had wings?

Even giving Second Mile a big benefit of the doubt, its informant was Curley, who's under indictment for perjury in this matter and who gave Spanier the impression (according to Spanier) that Sandusky had just been engaged in "horseplay."

"Joe's" informant was an eyewitness to an appalling rape. Let's not defy common sense by suggesting he went to Paterno and vaguely said he'd seen Sandusky and a boy in the locker room and it made him uncomfortable (and further that Paterno failed to ask, and McQueary failed to volunteer, what they were doing).

You'd be the first to object to evidence-free "what if" questions less favorable to Paterno that would make a lot more sense.

This marathon defense of Paterno at every last little turn is getting tenuous.
 
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Of course men and women are different, but I'd argue that the women who rise up in such powerful organizations, are often just as cold blooded and avaricious as the men in those positions (or become so). Say a woman was president, she'd be answering to billions of dollars from donors more than she would her moral view point. Or she'd be out on the street as soon as you can blink, and probably ruined. Same for a man. Wealth and power quite often trump moral standards for both women and men.

The Jaycee Dugard thing is totally different, as the two women weren't in a position of considerable power and didn't have to cut heads to get there, nor scrap with others trying to take their stations once there. They were not beholden to billionaires' whims.

I'm specially talking about what a woman administrator, coach or even grad assistant may have acted differently if they knew (or saw) a child being abused.
 

Kait14

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Mike McQueary, who reported what he saw to Paterno, placed on administrative leave.

The leave is "indefinite," according to President Rodney Ericson.

Pathetic move by Penn State.. so you're going to fire the big guys, but you're only going to place the guy who failed on the largest of scales on administrative leave. Why delay the inevitable?!
 

JS

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Pathetic move by Penn State.. so you're going to fire the big guys, but you're only going to place the guy who failed on the largest of scales on administrative leave. Why delay the inevitable?!
I understand they may be weighing whether firing him would run afoul of whistle-blower laws.
 

Kait14

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I understand they may be weighing whether firing him would run afoul of whistle-blower laws.

I'm not following... can you expand on that?
 

JS

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I'm not following... can you expand on that?

Hi Kait - nice to have you participating again.

The federal government and many states have laws protecting "whistle blowers," which McQueary arguably is, from retaliation by their employers.

Pennsylvania’s “Whistleblower Law,” 43 P.S. § 1421, et seq., declares it unlawful for any employer to “discharge, threaten or otherwise discriminate or retaliate” against an employee because the employee (1) has made, or is about to make, a good faith report to the employer or to an “appropriate authority” about an instance of wrongdoing or (2) has been requested by an appropriate authority to participate in an investigation, hearing or inquiry regarding the employer’s alleged wrongdoing.
 

UConnCat

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In addition to possible whistle-blower protection, McQueary is currently the only witness to Sandusky's alleged criminal acts against Victim 2 whose identity was unknown as of the date of the Grand Jury report. The AG would no doubt prefer that PSU not fire a cooperative eye-witness in its prosecution of Sandusky. Placing him on administrative leave may serve the interests of both the state AG and the university.
 

Kait14

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In addition to possible whistle-blower protection, McQueary is currently the only witness to Sandusky's alleged criminal acts against Victim 2 whose identity was unknown as of the date of the Grand Jury report. The AG would no doubt prefer that PSU not fire a cooperative eye-witness in its prosecution of Sandusky. Placing him on administrative leave may serve the interests of both the state AG and the university.

Do you think they'll keep him on administrative leave until the case is over, and then let him go? I just can't see how they could let him coach ever again
 

JS

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Do you think they'll keep him on administrative leave until the case is over, and then let him go? I just can't see how they could let him coach ever again
I think that's the kind of question they're wrestling with.

He could, of course, have started out as a whistle-blower and become part of the cover-up. In other words, they may be evaluating whether the statute is meant to protect a bought-off whistle-blower who was, just to take a hypothetical example, promised a promotion if he kept quiet or changed his story after his initial report.

I think, however, that you weren't originally questioning the reporting legalities but rather what an employer should do about someone who witnesses a crime in progress against a child and just slinks off rather than doing something to stop it.

Aside from the whistle-blower problem, and the possible participation in the cover-up, an employer might or might not decide to fire an employee who witnessed a crime being committed on the employer's premises and chose not to intervene on the spot. That would depend on the circumstances, including what risks to the witness and others might have been entailed by the intervention.

On Edit: Sorry Cat. Didn't notice that one was directed to you.
 

UConnCat

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Do you think they'll keep him on administrative leave until the case is over, and then let him go? I just can't see how they could let him coach ever again

Good question. I agree his coaching days at Penn State are likely over. But as the interim President said today, his situation is complicated. For now they've bought themselves some time to figure out his future.
 

ctchamps

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I think that's the kind of question they're wrestling with.

He could, of course, have started out as a whistle-blower and become part of the cover-up. In other words, they may be evaluating whether the statute is meant to protect a bought-off whistle-blower who was, just to take a hypothetical example, promised a promotion if he kept quiet or changed his story after his initial report.

I think, however, that you weren't originally questioning the reporting legalities but rather what an employer should do about someone who witnesses a crime in progress against a child and just slinks off rather than doing something to stop it.

Aside from the whistle-blower problem, and the possible participation in the cover-up, an employer might or might not decide to fire an employee who witnessed a crime being committed on the employer's premises and chose not to intervene on the spot. That would depend on the circumstances, including what risks to the witness and others might have been entailed by the intervention.

On Edit: Sorry Cat. Didn't notice that one was directed to you.
If I understand things correctly the McQueary testimony is the reason justice may finally be taking place. If it wasn't for his corroboration of the victims accusation, can anyone be certain of the indictments?
 
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Campus police, Schreffler and Ralston, the DA, Gricar, who chose not to prosecute, and a representative from the State Welfare Department, Lauro. NYT article on 1998 event

I would, also, note the following from Second Mile:

As The Second Mile’s CEO Jack Raykovitz testified to the Grand Jury, he was informed in 2002 by Pennsylvania State University Athletic Director Tim Curley that an individual had reported to Mr. Curley that he was uncomfortable about seeing Jerry Sandusky in the locker room shower with a youth. Mr. Curley also shared that the information had been internally reviewed and that there was no finding of wrongdoing. At no time was The Second Mile made aware of the very serious allegations contained in the Grand Jury report.

What if Joe was told the exact same thing.

But according to Joe's own testimony, he was NOT told this. When he testified under oath to the grand jury, Joe acknowledged that McQueary told him he had witnessed Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" to a young boy in the shower. That's a lot more explicit and a lot more damning than what Curley claims he was told.

And McQueary and/or his dad is saying that they told Joe very explicitely what happened.
 

Kait14

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But according to Joe's own testimony, he was NOT told this. When he testified under oath to the grand jury, Joe acknowledged that McQueary told him he had witnessed Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" to a young boy in the shower. That's a lot more explicit and a lot more damning than what Curley claims he was told.

And McQueary and/or his dad is saying that they told Joe very explicitely what happened.

Joe Paterno's not all there.. He seriously cannot keep what is going on straight in his head. One minute it's this, the next it's that. He's senile. I would take the word of a competent 36 year old to a 84 year old man who can't keep his days straight.
 

Kibitzer

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Back to Sandusky's unusual (at least to me) retirement at age 55. Given his high stature as an assistant (Joe's #2 guy) at then-prestigious PSU, doesn't it seem strange that apparently nobody offered him a head coaching job somewhee else? How could he be overlooked as the coaching merry-go-round spun and vacancies popped up all over the place, then and since?

Could it be that word got around that he was a risk? Or that some knew the reason he left PSU so abruptly and seemingly prematurely
 

Icebear

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What if pigs had wings?

Even giving Second Mile a big benefit of the doubt, its informant was Curley, who's under indictment for perjury in this matter and who gave Spanier the impression (according to Spanier) that Sandusky had just been engaged in "horseplay."

"Joe's" informant was an eyewitness to an appalling rape. Let's not defy common sense by suggesting he went to Paterno and vaguely said he'd seen Sandusky and a boy in the locker room and it made him uncomfortable (and further that Paterno failed to ask, and McQueary failed to volunteer, what they were doing).

You'd be the first to object to evidence-free "what if" questions less favorable to Paterno that would make a lot more sense.

This marathon defense of Paterno at every last little turn is getting tenuous.
Exactly, JS, if folks are going to speculate nothing can be ruled in or out. That is exactly why the one thing that needs to happen is to give authorities time to sort things out. Pigs don't fly, so why speculate at all.

If speculating is fair as to what Joe knew and when then it is fair to speculate as to why he might not know.

I have no intention of defending Joe simply want the whole truth out.

I suggested the whole thread be shut down two days ago but so long as speculation is continuing then speculation consistent with visible facts cuts both ways.

The only potential antidote is time.
 

Icebear

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If I understand things correctly the McQueary testimony is the reason justice may finally be taking place. If it wasn't for his corroboration of the victims accusation, can anyone be certain of the indictments?
Exactly. And is clearly part of the basis for the cases against Curley and Schultz.
 

Icebear

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But according to Joe's own testimony, he was NOT told this. When he testified under oath to the grand jury, Joe acknowledged that McQueary told him he had witnessed Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" to a young boy in the shower. That's a lot more explicit and a lot more damning than what Curley claims he was told.

And McQueary and/or his dad is saying that they told Joe very explicitely what happened.

Two separate points in time, stam, I am suggesting that if Joe followed up as many say he should have after the fact with Curley that he may have received a similar response. I have not heard reports from the McQuearys regarding specificity with Joe, they have certainly said that about Curley and Schultz. I admit it is hard to keep everything straight.

The problem with established policy and laws, such as, report it up to the appropriate administrator, is that then shapes one's expectations of the limits of one's responsibilities and one then expects them to take all appropriate actions and that involves an implicit trust in their response if you later follow up. IF, huge IF, Joe asked any follow up question he could well receive the same response. We have at least the report at Second Mile that that explanation was used once.

Fleud, win, and others with experience in the psychological field can add to what I am about to say and should feel free to correct anything. When one studies sociopaths like Sandusky would appear to be one of the overwhelming traits they have is incredible ability to charm those around them. In the aftermath of discovery everyone looks at the situation and says "How the ..." Lies, gifts, smiles, interest and attention, and much more all help to create the image of the nicest guy you could know. Someone seemingly above reproach. The greater Hartford area just went through that with a pediatrician beloved in the community who abused his trust and was charged with child . How many times did someone say "He is such a nice guy," and dismiss something that didn't feel just right because "It couldn't be." How many people had that moment and because they never knew someone else had that same discomfort they never said or did anything.

Pedophiles of this type exist within families and communities doing their damage for years because their public face is one thing and their private horribly different. In the aftermath, everyone asks, "How did that happen?" and tells themselves, "It couldn't happen here." or "I would have done something." because to contemplate the reality is too horrible. The statistics and studies of why people don't report tell us otherwise. If we gave into that fear we would be paralyzed with fear of everyone around us.

Nebraska has the toughest reporting law on the books it makes everyone responsible for reporting child abuse. Yet the law still says "reasonably expects" and to the layman what is reasonable has huge variation. The clarity of that law, however, would have made it clear that everyone involved in this mess Curley, Schultz, the janitors, anyone at Second Mile, Joe and McQueary all had a clear legal responsibility to contact the legal authorities and the local Youth and Family Services. No questions, ifs ands or buts we all do it. That removes the institution from being between you or me and our responsibility to protect the child. If the institution wants it reported to them, too, fine, but that doesn't relieve or supplant the responsility to contact the police and Child Welfare or whatever the agency responsible for in PA, CT or wherever.

Sadly, at the very first reported event in this mess it got to all those people, the local police and the state Department of Child Welfare, and still no legal action was taken by people who should have heard the worst of that original case. Lauro the representative from the department of Child Welfare says he perceived it as a situation of boundaries not sexual abuse but knowing what he does now says that was clearly wrong. That is a professionally trained outsider who was completely fooled. All of that is on Jerry Sandusky, the sociopath and molester who had them all fooled.

The most dangerous thing in the world is thinking you would do what others did not, statistics tell us that is unlikely. It is one of the reasons events like these go unexposed for so long. Human behavior is remarkably consistent. That is why profiling works and why we can finally recognize sociopaths albeit after the fact. Consider how remarkably consistent each report of Sandusky's abuses is to the others. He had a clear pattern of behavior.

If one wants to increase your odds of doing the right thing get training. BTW, this thread may already be a step towards acting differently just because you have already had to think about these things prayerfully, BEFORE encountering them.

Btw, who among us knows exactly what CT or your state requires of you about when, what and to whom you report if you "reasonably expect" a child has been abused?
 
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Joe Paterno ran that school, and then some. If he wanted something done to Sandusky, it would have been done. He wanted him to have asst professor emeritus status otherwise he wouldn't have had it. That status allowed this man a safe haven to continue molesting children after the '98 incident and investigation. Why did that investigation go nowhere? Perhaps because Joe Pa didn't want it to. Joe Paterno wanted no black eyes on his program and he was willing to go to whatever lengths needed to achieve that. There is no plausible deniability for the coach who by all accounts knew every single thing that was happening in his program, he wasn't 84 and old and senile in 98. No, quite the opposite, he was the almighty Joe PA, Joe Pennsylvania. No one told him what to do. People in Pennsylvania had elevated him to God like status, I am not at all shocked that even now they defend him.

If anyone can read that grand jury report and imagine it was their child, grandchild, or nephew in that shower and still want to defend Joe Paterno's handling of it after at the very least it was reported to him that he saw a boy being fondled or something of a sexual nature, than God bless you and keep defending him.
 

Kait14

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Back to Sandusky's unusual (at least to me) retirement at age 55. Given his high stature as an assistant (Joe's #2 guy) at then-prestigious PSU, doesn't it seem strange that apparently nobody offered him a head coaching job somewhee else? How could he be overlooked as the coaching merry-go-round spun and vacancies popped up all over the place, then and since?

Could it be that word got around that he was a risk? Or that some knew the reason he left PSU so abruptly and seemingly prematurely

This is exactly on point.. I was listening to the local guys on ESPN radio here, and they threw out the idea that MAYBE it was known through the college football world, and that's why no one touched him
 

Kait14

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Joe Paterno ran that school, and then some. If he wanted something done to Sandusky, it would have been done. He wanted him to have asst professor emeritus status otherwise he wouldn't have had it. That status allowed this man a safe haven to continue molesting children after the '98 incident and investigation. Why did that investigation go nowhere? Perhaps because Joe Pa didn't want it to. Joe Paterno wanted no black eyes on his program and he was willing to go to whatever lengths needed to achieve that. There is no plausible deniability for the coach who by all accounts knew every single thing that was happening in his program, he wasn't 84 and old and senile in 98. No, quite the opposite, he was the almighty Joe PA, Joe Pennsylvania. No one told him what to do. People in Pennsylvania had elevated him to God like status, I am not at all shocked that even now they defend him.

If anyone can read that grand jury report and imagine it was their child, grandchild, or nephew in that shower and still want to defend Joe Paterno's handling of it after at the very least it was reported to him that he saw a boy being fondled or something of a sexual nature, than God bless you and keep defending him.

You nailed it on the head.. in 100% agreement with you. It's truly disgusting how much power Paterno had. And anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Joe Paterno was BIGGER than Penn State, and it ruined them
 

Icebear

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JoePA did have tremendous power at Penn State but not absolute power and not in the way many here seem to think. He has had large detractors within the board for over a decade. Folks who thought his approach to football no longer worked. As others have said in various places Joe and PSU football was the cash cow. But the Board of the University is made up of many people from a cross section of business and professional interests. LINK

Seven years ago Tim Curley and President Spanier went to his house on behalf of the board to ask him to retire for this reason. It was an example of the break that existed between Paterno and the board. JoePA essentially said no thank you knowing the public would never put up with his ouster. Joe's relationship with Curley and others is one of the reasons for maintaining skepticism as to what Joe knew or didn't know "officially." It was a relationship with a long history of more than a small amount of antagonism.

Truth is that it may well be the weakening of Joe's position with the board that weakened the support of Rene to where the end could come in the 2005-6 events with the trial initiated by Jen Harris. Also, one can not underestimate the importance of that trial in finally forcing the issue to a level and venue where it could not be ignored. Once upon a time Joe was the be all and end all in the university and especially the athletic department (he was the AD, also, at the time when Rene was hired) but that has long passed.
 

Kait14

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JoePA did have tremendous power at Penn State but not absolute power and not in the way many here seem to think. He had had large detractors within the board for over a decade. Folks who thought his approach to football no longer worked. As others have said in various places Joe and PSU football was the cash cow.

Seven years ago Tim Curley and President Spanier went to his house on behalf of the board to ask him to retire for this reason. It was an example of the break that existed between Paterno and the board. JoePA essentially said no thank you knowing the public would never put up with his ouster. Joe's relationship with Curley and others is one of the reasons for maintaining skepticism as to what Joe knew or didn't know "officially." It was a relationship with a long history of more than a small amount of antagonism.

Truth is that it may well be the weakening of Joe's position with the board that weakened the support of Rene to where the end could come in the 2005-6 events with the trial initiated by Jen Harris. Also, one can not underestimate the importance of that trial in finally forcing the issue to a level and venue where it could not be ignored. Once upon a time Joe was the be all and end all in the university and especially the athletic department (he was the AD, also, at the time when Rene was hired) but that has long passed.

How can you say he didn't not have absolute power when he was asked politely to resign, and he said NO. Where else in life would your bosses not immediately remove you?!
 
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