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Paterno and Spanier both fired!

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Here's the question I would like to know the answer to, re 1998. How was the decision arrived at to remove Sandusky from the coaching staff via retirement at age 55, yet give him full access to the campus and facilities via Professor Emiritus status? Who discussed this settlement, and what were the factors that influenced this decision? To me, this is the key to the entire case. We will probably never really know, since it must have been a very private meeting, and the attendees probably don't want to incriminate themselves. But if one attendee could crack, perhaps with an offer of immunity, the truth might come out. I'm not holding my breath, though.

IOW, how could they decide to fire the guy, yet keep him on campus? ( Sandusky was still recruiting as late as this year.) Doesn't make much sense.

Just a guess, but I have a feeling the missing D.A. Gricar was an attendee.
Reports were at the time that Joe forced Jerry to make a decision between Penn State and the Second Mile because he felt The Second Mile had become a distraction to Sandusky. Who knows how that fits.
 
Reports were at the time that Joe forced Jerry to make a decision between Penn State and the Second Mile because he felt The Second Mile had become a distraction to Sandusky. Who knows how that fits.
That would imply that the 1998 incident and investigation had nothing to do with the decision. That might be an "official" version, but it's really hard to believe. Sandusky started the charity in 1977, so, for 21 years coaching and second mile were not a problem for Paterno. All of a sudden, it was a problem? Smells fishy to me.
 
That would imply that the 1998 incident and investigation had nothing to do with the decision. That might be an "official" version, but it's really hard to believe. Sandusky started the charity in 1977, so, for 21 years coaching and second mile were not a problem for Paterno. All of a sudden, it was a problem? Smells fishy to me.
Fishy?

More like ludicrous.
 
That would imply that the 1998 incident and investigation had nothing to do with the decision. That might be an "official" version, but it's really hard to believe. Sandusky started the charity in 1977, so, for 21 years coaching and second mile were not a problem for Paterno. All of a sudden, it was a problem? Smells fishy to me.
I understand and I don't necessarily disagree. Just sharing what had been said at the time.

I do remember there being some changes in the Second Mile program at the time involving expansion of the program maybe the mid 90s. In 1975 Second Mile helped a couple dozen or so kids in centre County, today 100,000 kids in every county in PA are involved annually across the state including centers in Camp Hill/Harrisburg and King of Prussia/Philly.
 
A really interesting interview with John Ritchie who knew Sandusky for a long time beginning at 14 when he was being recruited by PSU. LINK
 
An article on PA reporting law by a parishioners brother who just graduated from Harvard Law this past year.

LINK

"Under Pennsylvania law, 23 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 6311 creates a duty to report suspected child abuse, including sexual abuse. That law, however, applies only to people who come into contact with children in the course of employment, and it applies only to children under the care or supervision of the organization with which that person is affiliated. When staff members at an institution have a legal duty to report under the statute, they fully discharge that duty upon notifying the person in charge of the institution. At that point, the person in charge assumes the legal duty to report the suspected abuse to Child Protective Services."
 
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An article on PA reporting law by a parishioners brother who just graduated from Harvard Law this past year.

LINK
"None of this is to say that the absence of a legal duty to act aligns with the absence of a moral duty to act. "
 
"None of this is to say that the absence of a legal duty to act aligns with the absence of a moral duty to act. "
Absolutely. What was followed does seem, however, to be exactly what the law defines and more since neither JoePA or McQueary may not, actually, be defined as mandated reporters under the law since none of their activities brought them into contact with juveniles as part of their work and they did report it to the head of the administration in Tim Curley and the Athletic Department.

Moral questions are always separate from legal questions. We have had both in play here.
 
Reports this morning of at least one of the victims hiring a lawyer for purposes of initiating a civil suit. More to come on this front.

A couple of other things to look for:

HuskyNan rightly posed the question on the Football board about Victim 4 who was taken across state lines to at least 2 bowl games (Outback in 1998 and Alamo in 1999) and whether doing so caused a violation of federal law. I responded that these activities if proven would violate the federal Mann Act, although there are more appropriate provisions than the one I cited based on some quick research. There are provisions that make it a federal crime (punishable by up to life in prison) to transport a minor across state lines for purposes of engaging in sexual abuse/assault. (provisions deal with aggravated sexual abuse, 18 USC 2241 ). There are petitions out there already urging the US Atty for the middle district in PA to initiate a federal investigation and get the FBI involved. The parts of the GJ report dealing with Victim 4 are unbelievably awful to read. BTW, it sounds like PSU paid for this boy to travel as part of Sandusky's "family party."

Also, the question posed was with respect to one of the victims in the GJ report. There may be other as yet unidentified victims who traveled with Sandusky across state lines to PSU road games. What is in the GJ report could be the tip of the iceberg. There are many reasons why it was important for Paterno to hire a criminal lawyer. I'm not saying he'll be charged with any crimes, but he may be part of more than one criminal investigation. It was an absolutely necessary step by him.

Also, I heard some lawyers who believe the US Dept of Justice may initiate a civil rights investigation of the university's handling of this matter. PSU of course receives federal money and is therefore required to comply with federal civil rights laws.

Again, what's going on now is just the beginning.
 
Irony alert...I wonder if anyone(PS people) noticed that Victim 4(aka young boy) was part of the "Traveling Party'?

Correction, he was listed as part of Sandusky's "family party" not traveling party. My mistake. He was listed with Sandusky's wife, btw. This is the young boy who also accompanied Sandusky to Toftrees, a local resort where the team stayed before home games, and was also a fixture at Sandusky's home. It sounds like the assaults happened in a variety of locations, including Sandusky's home and in the various hotels. Those pages of the report are especially difficult to read.
 
With all the talk of McQ and Paterno fulfilling their legal reporting responsibilities, I'm curious whether anyone believes either one actually knew a) what was required of them under the PA child protection services law, and b) that they had complied with the law. As a nurse in Penn I know the requirements of the law, but I highly doubt either McQ or Paterno knew what those are. Not a big deal, but it goes to the issue of motivation behind the actions they did take which were driven by self-interest rather than fulfilling the minimal requirements of the law.
 
I think it's impossible at this stage (although we may never know) to judge whether they were acting in their own self interest or whether they stopped and thought about the law or were given adice about the legal ramifications of theiraction/inaction.
 
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With all the talk of McQ and Paterno fulfilling their legal reporting responsibilities, I'm curious whether anyone believes either one actually knew a) what was required of them under the PA child protection services law, and b) that they had complied with the law. As a nurse in Penn I know the requirements of the law, but I highly doubt either McQ or Paterno knew what those are. Not a big deal, but it goes to the issue of motivation behind the actions they did take which were driven by self-interest rather than fulfilling the minimal requirements of the law.
Impossible to say, Cat. Both are certainly possibilities. My suggestion of compliance is only that they met the letter of the law which is very likely why they were not charged. Curley and Schultz, on the other hand clearly, did not comply given the evidence to date. All I can say is that teachers in the two school districts I spoke to yesterday know exactly what the law requires of them. I have no idea at all what type of training that PSU requires or provides to whom.

Presently, I am becoming more interested in how to prevent such institutional and personal neglect of all parties, legally and morally in the future. Two huge steps would be to follow Nebraska's law and to make all person mandated reporters to the State Police and local Children's Sevices. Second I would make it impossible for files to be expunged sooner than 3 years. Once expunged Sandusky would have passed any background checks performed by any school or organization. I have some other ideas but haven't fully formulated them yet. We cannot change what has happened but can only pursue the most complete form of justice available under ALL State and Federal laws. We can, however, advocate for laws that make it as hard as possible for something like this to ever happen again.
 
Being a mandated reporter does not supersede being a decent human being. All those who had a hand in covering up the abuse of children at PSU failed at being decent human beings. Whether they or their supporters want to continue with the "fulfilled the legal obligation" line is irrelevant
 
Impossible to say, Cat. Both are certainly possibilities. My suggestion of compliance is only that they met the letter of the law which is very likely why they were not charged. Curley and Schultz, on the other hand clearly, did not comply given the evidence to date. All I can say is that teachers in the two school districts I spoke to yesterday know exactly what the law requires of them. I have no idea at all what type of training that PSU requires or provides to whom.

Presently, I am becoming more interested in how to prevent such institutional and personal neglect of all parties, legally and morally in the future. Two huge steps would be to follow Nebraska's law and to make all person mandated reporters to the State Police and local Children's Sevices. Second I would make it impossible for files to be expunged sooner than 3 years. Once expunged Sandusky would have passed any background checks performed by any school or organization. I have some other ideas but haven't fully formulated them yet. We cannot change what has happened but can only pursue the most complete form of justice available under ALL State and Federal laws. We can, however, advocate for laws that make it as hard as possible for something like this to ever happen again.

Agree on all points. I'm sure legislation to change the PA law(s) covering all aspects of this issue has already been introduced in the HR and Senate or will be introduced this week (assuming the GA is in session in Harrisburg).
 
Being a mandated reporter does not supersede being a decent human being. All those who had a hand in covering up the abuse of children at PSU failed at being decent human beings. Whether they or their supporters want to continue with the "fulfilled the legal obligation" line is irrelevant
That is still making huge assumptions Red Light.

I have avoided getting into the moral obligation area because it is a bog of possibilities. Moral choice does not exist in a void nor does society give clear definitions to moral actions.

As I noted long past in these threads moral action changes across time as social mores shift. As far back as Sextus Empiricus philosophers have denied the absolute nature of moral values as divinely given but as human institutions and creations. Ex. we would affirm today aspects of the Code of Hamurabbi and and the Law of Israel but would reject other aspects. This moral relativism is the broken into both individual relativism (as in Nietsche's superhuman) and cultural relativism approval of one's culture. Do you see where this is headed as a quagmire?

Kant defined moral action in virtue of its motives. It is a deontological argument that many here would find comforting. Since we know nothing of the motives except for guesses here and since neither JoePA nor McQueary have spoken of their motives we muddy the waters even further. And it can equally be argued that these two did their duty under the law against self-interest. Meeting Kant's definition of moral action.

Judging issues and behavior like this with moral certitude is tenuous at best without knowing much more than what we have at hand except as defined by the law and cultural choices codified in that law by a representative democracy.

Consider the kosher laws. Some Jews today still keep kosher and find it an important aspect of their relationship to the _ _ _ who gave them. Christians generally do not keep kosher law based on Peter's vision from God in the book of Acts. Still other Jews no longer keep kosher law, also, because they believe they no longer serve the purpose for which they were given. All three of these groups relate in some way to the same law and yet all come to different moral conclusions concerning the right use and implications of the kosher laws.

In the ancient world children were essentially property until they came of age. They had few rights and protections. Today we have vastly different views of children and their rights and protections but they are not absolute and they are fluid. Consider the child labor laws. Wading into discussions of moral rightness and wrongness while most generally the same among us because we live in the same culture are still not monolithic.

The entire exploration of Victor Hugo's Les Miserables is about this very issue of the clash between law, ethic and morals. When we know nothing of the motivations and context of the various actors at PSU it is very hard for us to speak absolutely about their moral and immoral actions.

If you want to see how quickly moral action can descend into a chaos of opinions just look at the multitude of responses to the Occupy movement. There are individuals and social groups (political parties are social groups) who consider it moral and others see it immoral.
 
Correction, he was listed as part of Sandusky's "family party" not traveling party. My mistake. He was listed with Sandusky's wife, btw. This is the young boy who also accompanied Sandusky to Toftrees, a local resort where the team stayed before home games, and was also a fixture at Sandusky's home. It sounds like the assaults happened in a variety of locations, including Sandusky's home and in the various hotels. Those pages of the report are especially difficult to read.

Speaking of which, where was Sandusky's wife in all of this? I doubt she had no clue. What with the number of 'near misses' over the years, Sandusky's 'retirement', his propensity to cling physically to these boys at all times, etc., she had at minimum to suspect something. I'd be surprised if she didn't catch JS on occasion (we're talking 30+ years here). The family was awash in damaged young boys and Sandusky has shown himself to be less than discrete in these matters.
 
Speaking of which, where was Sandusky's wife in all of this? I doubt she had no clue. What with the number of 'near misses' over the years, Sandusky's 'retirement', his propensity to cling physically to these boys at all times, etc., she had at minimum to suspect something. I'd be surprised if she didn't catch JS on occasion (we're talking 30+ years here). The family was awash in damaged young boys.

Not to mention his visiting of the boys in the basement during the night. There have been at least a couple of pieces written about precisely the issues you raise. I suspect more will be written about her.
 
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Not to mention his visiting of the boys in the basement during the night. There have been at least a couple of pieces written about precisely the issues you raise. I suspect more will be written about her.

I admittedly have not read everything about the issue, but is astounding as to the number of people involved on different levels, not all of whom were beholden to PSU. It's mind boggling, as you think situations of this nature like this would rise to the surface (publicly) immediately.
 
Not to mention his visiting of the boys in the basement during the night. There have been at least a couple of pieces written about precisely the issues you raise. I suspect more will be written about her.

How could she not know that he was being investigated by the police and DA in '98? This makes my stomach turn.
 
from ESPN:
In light of the child sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, Joe Paterno's name has been removed from the new Big Ten championship trophy, the conference announced Monday.
The Big Ten said that the crisis at Penn State, which led to Paterno's firing as coach Wednesday night, prompted the decision to remove his name from the trophy. The new trophy, to be awarded Dec. 3 at the inaugural Big Ten football championship game at Indianapolis, had been named for both Paterno and former University of Chicago coach Amos Alonzo Stagg.
It will now be known only as the Stagg Championship Trophy.
 
It was 1998, Kait, when the very first mother filed a complaint. It was the one when DA Gricar decided to not prosecute. The least that should have happened was that charges should have been filed even if later dropped. Doing that would have served the community warning.

As an aside, if there is no basis for charges to be filed, filing them is prosecutorial misconduct, not to mention unethical (per the State Bar).

It is curious, however, that charges were not filed, given what seems to be an admission of "some" inappropriate activity by Sandusky. However, we do not know why charges were not filed, and it is possible we never will.
 
Also from ESPN: President of The Second Mile resigns

Plus this quote:

"Meanwhile, law enforcement sources told ABC News that the Sandusky case "has generated a strong public response." Sources said the case "has generated multiple leads" and "information from the public" that has required state police to commit additional investigative resources to the case."

LINK
 
from ESPN:
In light of the child sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, Joe Paterno's name has been removed from the new Big Ten championship trophy, the conference announced Monday.
The Big Ten said that the crisis at Penn State, which led to Paterno's firing as coach Wednesday night, prompted the decision to remove his name from the trophy. The new trophy, to be awarded Dec. 3 at the inaugural Big Ten football championship game at Indianapolis, had been named for both Paterno and former University of Chicago coach Amos Alonzo Stagg.
It will now be known only as the Stagg Championship Trophy.

I read somewhere that members of the Stagg family were among those advocating for removal of Paterno's name.
 
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As an aside, if there is no basis for charges to be filed, filing them is prosecutorial misconduct, not to mention unethical (per the State Bar).

It is curious, however, that charges were not filed, given what seems to be an admission of "some" inappropriate activity by Sandusky. However, we do not know why charges were not filed, and it is possible we never will.
And yet it is done on the amount of information that was at hand. It certainly was within the realm of debatable action. Given Gricar's disappearance and apparent death it is very unlikely we will even know.

I did not mean to suggest, Cam, that it should simply be done in all cases. Indeed there must be some basis.
 
Speaking of which, where was Sandusky's wife in all of this? I doubt she had no clue. What with the number of 'near misses' over the years, Sandusky's 'retirement', his propensity to cling physically to these boys at all times, etc., she had at minimum to suspect something. I'd be surprised if she didn't catch JS on occasion (we're talking 30+ years here). The family was awash in damaged young boys and Sandusky has shown himself to be less than discrete in these matters.
This is a good question. I linked an article earlier in this thread that discusses sexual abuse. It estimates the number of sexual attacks on minors and how infrequently cases are reported. It is estimated that between 1% and 10% of all child sexual abuse gets reported.

Mrs Sandusky may have known, may have suspected or been clueless. We won't really know unless she admits to knowing. Even if she knows, I doubt she will admit that after the way people turned on Paterno and McQuery. Individual cases are hard to know definitively, one way or the other.

But those group numbers are condemning. As I've mentioned my wife counseled many people who were abused as children. In almost all the cases there were family members who these "children" believed knew their spouse, or another family member, was sexually assaulting the child, but took no action.

The body of evidence is that most people go through denial when confronted with shocking events. This doesn't excuse behavior. It explains behavior.
 
New York Times reports up to ten more youngsters have come forward.
 
Interesting that as of 11:30, no one else appears to have the story, I checked Boston, Philly, and Washington.
The Washington Post complained on its first page on Sunday of its inadequacy on the story and has been scooped again.
 
now they say McQ STOPPED the rape....

Sandsky speaks... he's nuts!
 
On "The Ed Show" on MSNBC, there was considerable discussion about the judge (District Judge Leslie Dutchcot) who was so lenient with Sandusky. Prosecutors wanted $500,000 bail and that he be required to wear a leg monitor; she let him off with $100,000 in unsecured bail and no restrictions on his movements. It turns out that she has donated money to and done volunteer work for the Second Mile foundation, that a senior officer (president?) held fundraisers for her campaign, and that she knew that Sandusky's house actually abuts an elementary school. So he is free to roam, thanks to her. It seems like a clear case of conflict of interest and she should have recused.

(Grammar note. Widespread common usage almost always reads, "recused herself," but I disagree. I believe this use of "recuse" as a transitive verb occurs because it sort of rhymes with "excuse him/her/myself." I think the closest synonym is "withdraw," not "disqualify," so an object is not only unneeded but incorrect. Try this: "The judge ascertained that it would be a conflict of interest to hear the case so she recused." Helpful comments welcome. It's almost 2 a.m. so I hereby recuse.)
 
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