Paterno and Spanier both fired! | Page 2 | The Boneyard

Paterno and Spanier both fired!

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HuskyNan said:
With all due respect, I find your cold-bloodedness repulsive. Parsing all the legal mumbo-jumbo and analyzing each article to assign the proper amount of blame to the proper person is a fine way to distance yourself emotionally from the news, I guess, but I can't be like that. It's an emotional issue and I am appalled, horrified and sickened that defenseless children were abused time and again, first by Sandusky then by Penn State. Asking us to look at the situation analytically is a hopeless exercise, at least for me.
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Cold-bloodedness? Come on, Nan, that is beneath you. Trying to be dispassionate, sure. What is gained for all these kids by simple raw emotion, nothing. Emotion fades and then what is left. Only by pursuing things to the right legal end benefits all, including every kid who may be hurt by anyone anytime in the future. Over reaction fans things so much that it discourages many from ever reporting anything and that harms everyone including more kids in the future.
 
Icebear said:
Cold bloodedness? Come on, Nan, that is beneath you. Trying to be dispassionate, sure. What is gained for all these kids by simple raw emotion, nothing. Emotion fades and then what is left. Only by pursuing things to the right legal end benefits all including every kid who may be hurt by anyone anytime in the future. Over reaction fans things so much that it discourages many from ever reporting anything and that harms everyone.
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Over reaction????
 
pap49cba said:
Over reaction????
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Over heated reactions if you want. I'm speaking of the runaway media like Mike and Mike the last three days most often based in speculation broad guesses of motives and what people knew and what they would do.

The emotional reactions of people are perfectly understandable. We have a choice of what to do with it.

As to all of us who self righteously believe we would have acted differently statistics tell us that this is not true. TV hidden cams, also, tell us it is not true. We live in the culture of "Don't get involved."

http://www.omaha.com/article/20111110/NEWS01/711109875

It is a human problem not uniquely American.

http://www.oacas.org/newsroom/releases/surveyresults06oct4.pdf

If we all did what is right we wouldn't need mandated reporter laws. We simply could rely on the moral good nature of all, but that is the very thing people now criticize as missing in Joe.
 
The legal process can, will, and should take a lot of time. In the interim, the PSU BOT made a decision to try to preclude further reputational damage to their school, athletic department, and brand. They had every right to act swiftly and decisively, and given the nature of the issues at hand, it was the appropriate decision.

I don't doubt that JoePa has carried himself with humility and dignity in many big and small ways, but this is not a failure that can be overlooked. Unfortunately, we are often judged based on the worst things we've done (or worst cases of neglect). Just how it is. JoePa is going to have to live with that. Tough life, dude.
 
alexrgct said:
The legal process can, will, and should take a lot of time. In the interim, the PSU BOT made a decision to try to preclude further reputational damage to their school, athletic department, and brand. They had every right to act swiftly and decisively, and given the nature of the issues at hand, it was the appropriate decision.

I don't doubt that JoePa has carried himself with humility and dignity in many big and small ways, but this is not a failure that can be overlooked. Unfortunately, we are often judged based on the worst things we've done (or worst cases of neglect). Just how it is. JoePa is going to have to live with that. Tough life, dude.
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He would and has been the first to say that.
 
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Penn St. created a culture where informing the police of an alleged crime would have been a no-no. When you have coaches and janitors too scared to pick up a phone and dial 911, you've got serious issues. Folks were more concerned about job security, donations and tradition. They failed to do the right thing.
 
Icebear said:
I will share this now because it is now more appropriate and it makes a point.

Joe Paterno is an incredibly humble man and for someone in his station one of the most humble I have met. I have heard him give a funeral eulogy for a former player in our Central PA hamlet. A man who died leading a group on Denali when he fell into a crevasse on the mountain. The player's name was Terry "Mugs" Stump. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mugs_Stump ) His father was a fellow Lions Club member with me. I have never heard Joe speak of himself except in the simplest terms.

Joe until yesterday was still paid only $1 million approximately in an era where his peers are measured in multimillion dollar contracts. He lived emerged in the State College community and made no assumptions of privilege. When he went to campus plays and programs he did not have special reserved seats and was as likely to sit in the 22nd row as the first. In fact, you might well have had Sue and Joe sit next to you. He is more likely to ask questions about you and your work than himself. His house is a very normal house in town. Joe is a very simple man.
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Ice - The timeline provided by CFer is very informative. Paterno allowed this predator to continue molesting young boys for years after he was aware of it. He did so by his indifference, inaction or a deliberate desire to keep it quiet. I can't understand why you continue to defend him. It doesn't matter that he is a coaching legend or that he's a "simple" man. He will leave Penn State in deserved disgrace after a legendary career.

Try removing the name of Joe Paterno from this and maybe you will come to the same conclusion that the rest of us have. If this were coach Schmuck at any school but PSU, you would be calling for his head.
 
this seems like it's going to go on for a very long time. especially trying to figure out exactly who knew about the abuses, and why they did nothing about it (ie. reporting it, etc). it is a very sad way for a legend to go out, but very deserved. i don't pretend to know all the facts - in cases like this we rarely do - but one should always err on the side of caution when dealing with abuses of children. i'm not saying rush to judgment, but if there is any hard evidence, then they should act immediately which is what the trustees did...

the whole situation is incredibly disturbing. i'm sure we are all sickened by the accusations and any time things happen to defenseless children, it makes the crime all the more egregious. i'm not trying to diffuse any of the anger or disgust people feel, and as i said, if the trustees have proof of wrong doing by the HC and president, they were right to fire them.

they also should fire anyone else who had any knowledge or was involved in any kind of cover up. but i do agree that an investigation should be done ASAP and all the guilty parties punished accordingly. i just hope it doesn't turn into a witch hunt with innocent adults getting thrown under the bus along with the guilty ones.
 
I'm going to speak up on behalf of the media's coverage of this issue. The media is often criticized for its coverage of issues; some criticism is deserved, some is not. But I think most media outlets -- at least the ones I've been following -- have been covering this issue thoroughly, respectfully, tastefully and fairly. The Harrisburg Patriot-News' reporting on two of the victims and their families has been outstanding. The NY Times has provided its typical excellent coverage.

I'm not a fan of ESPN's Mike and Mike show only because I have no interest in the sport (pro football) the show spends most of its time covering. But I like both Mikes and I believe Mike Greenberg is an outstanding sports journalist. The show has in many ways expressed the varied and complex emotions all of us are feeling over this tragedy. It has honored Paterno the man and his legacy by reaching out to former players and Paterno's friends and allowed them to express their emotions and thoughts about what has happened. Every former player whose interview I heard (i.e., Millen, Blackledge, Posluszny) agreed that the BOT made the right decision, notwithstanding their love for Paterno. BTW, Posluszny, who played at PSU from 2003-2007 stated that Sandusky was "definitely around [the program] and visible," and Sandusky's charity was often a vehicle for players to volunteer in the community and Sandusky was always present. Think about that. Posluszny was speaking of his time at PSU after 2002.

Finally, and most importantly, Mike and Mike have rightly not allowed their listeners to forget the real victims of this tragedy and their families.
 
As I said all along let the information keep coming out for better or worse. There has been no need to rush once the kids were protected.
 
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HuskyNan said:
With all due respect, I find your cold-bloodedness repulsive.
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Really Nan? Isn't that a bit much?

HuskyNan said:
Parsing all the legal mumbo-jumbo and analyzing each article to assign the proper amount of blame to the proper person is a fine way to distance yourself emotionally from the news, I guess, but I can't be like that.
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Luckily some people can distance themselves from the emotional. Otherwise who would be judges, police, investigators, doctors, etc. Some people just have the ability to to do that. Doesn't make them "cold blooded" or repulsive. Or shouldn't anyway. You should be glad for people like that. And we should be glad people like you are not in positions of authority where emotions can hold sway.
 
I just grows and grows.

The case is now being made that Sandusky left in 1999 with some sort of a cover-up deal aout his shameful activities.

Another story is emerging in rumor form now that reveals (if true) an unimaginable level of depravity. I hope it is NOT true. We'll soon see.
 
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Icebear said:
Yes, they have but what about his relationship with all these kids in the past. Remember second Mile was founded by Sandusky in 1977.
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Just saying it doesn't look like they just recently separated themselves from him (well at least separating him and the kids) when all this came out, but rather back a few years when they first found out about stuff. Unlike Penn St.

How accurate their statement is though I have no idea.
 
As stated here and in the media, there are many parallels to the Catholic church and PSU scandal. I have to wonder if more women were in leadership positions in higher education/athletics and the Catholic church, there would possibly be fewer cases because a woman would act quicker after hearing or seeing such abuses to powerless children. Jaycee Dugard case is a prime example, it took 2 women police officers at Cal's campus who noticed something was wrong and questioned the abuser.
 
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke

I will add that good men who do nothing in the face of evil cease to be good men.

Joe Paterno was a good coach, that does not make him a good man. After reading the grand jury report I am more than convinced of that. The fish stinks from the head down.
 
meyers7 said:
Just saying it doesn't look like they just recently separated themselves from him (well at least separating him and the kids) when all this came out, but rather back a few years when they first found out about stuff. Unlike Penn St.

How accurate their statement is though I have no idea.
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The separation was supposedly in 2008-9. To the best of my knowledge that was true.

These stories began to appear in the local media in PA back in March when the Grand Jury was convened.
 
Icebear said:
Forget Paterno, what if the DA in 1998 had decided to prosecute the original case. Even if he had lost the public would have been alerted and forewarned. If so, even the 2000 and 2002 victims might have been spared and all of this mess. That was a legal authority with real authority who stepped aside. The DA had sufficient proof of inappropriate behavior including statement from Sandusky of inappropriate behavior and the department of someone from youth and family services. Why do we not have evidence of them ever warning the university or passing on the information, if so, Sandusky might have been completely isolated and eliminated from any use of campus facilities. If the university was informed then I am livid.
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Idk if anyone has said this because I just started reading the thread and came across this, but the DA that had been overseeing the case went missing and turned up dead.....
 
I have such a strong opinion about this that it is absolutely impossible for me to be rational. My father was molested, so this hits extremely close to home for me. Not only should Mike McQueary be absolutely shamed of himself, but I wish he could be put away for violating the Good Samaritan Law, but I don't think it covers this sort of thing. McQueary is a COWARD. How ANY human being can witness something as ATROCIOUS as a 55 year old man sodomizing a 10 year old boy and WALK AWAY is so BEYOND me that I can't wrap my brain around it. Not only did he walk away and continue to let it occur, but he ran to his DADDY to ask him what to do. I'm sorry, you are a 28 year old MAN. What the hell are you running to your daddy asking advice for?! Any rational man, even HUMAN for goodness sake, would have done SOMETHING to get that little boy out of there. The cover-up, which is becoming so apparent it's sickening, and the absolute neglect of those little boys is so disgusting. That entire staff needs to go. Considering they've all been there for 30+ years, PSU needs a clean sweep; of every administrator in that athletic department that has been there since 98. Because of these cowardly men, who KNOWS how many little boys' lives have been ruined. The fact that Sandusky has CONTINUED to be allowed on campus is ludicrous. In 1998, when Penn State found out and basically slapped Sandusky on the wrist and said, "Listen. We are going to take away your key to the facilities, and you aren't allowed to bring little boys on campus anymore. We don't care if you do it elsewhere, just don't do it on campus." Football at Penn State supersedes life. Time for them to start over. I wish the NCAA cared about actual crimes, instead of giving schools death penalties for providing their athletes with clothing. I'm so disgusted with Penn State and the administrators at this institution that I WISH they could receive the NCAA death penalty.

I was getting SO fired up watching those idiotic students at Penn State rioting last night. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! If you are going to protest something, UNDERSTAND what exactly you are protesting. It's become so clear over the passed few days that people from State College are in their own world and have absolutely NO idea of the magnitude of this situation. I was embarrassed for my generation last night. There was ONE student who understood the situation that ESPN interviewed, and was disgusted with the students rioting. ONE.. out of 2,000. Every time more information comes out I just become more enraged. Enabling a pedophile is nearly as disgusting as being a pedophile.
 
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Kait14 said:
Idk if anyone has said this because I just started reading the thread and came across this, but the DA that had been overseeing the case went missing and turned up dead.....
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No. The DA who oversaw the 1998 case disappeared in 2005. His body has never been found. He is presumed dead but no-one knows for sure.
 
cardfan said:
As stated here and in the media, there are many parallels to the Catholic church and PSU scandal. I have to wonder if more women were in leadership positions in higher education/athletics and the Catholic church, there would possibly be fewer cases because a woman would act quicker after hearing or seeing such abuses to powerless children. Jaycee Dugard case is a prime example, it took 2 women police officers at Cal's campus who noticed something was wrong and questioned the abuser.
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Honestly don't think it would make much difference. We are talking about an enormous amount of power, prestige and money involved here (not just the individuals involved, but the institution/brand as a whole). People will go to extreme lengths to satisfy those hoary masters. In these situations, people quite often just get in line. All people are corruptible. The idea that women are somehow 'morally superior' to men is a bit much.
 
Kait14 said:
I have such a strong opinion about this that it is absolutely impossible for me to be rational. My father was molested, so this hits extremely close to home for me.
...That entire staff needs to go. Considering they've all been there for 30+ years, PSU needs a clean sweep; of every administrator in that athletic department that has been there since 98.... Because of these cowardly men, who KNOWS how many little boys' lives have been ruined. The fact that Sandusky has CONTINUED to be allowed on campus is ludicrous.
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While you are certainly justified in being emotionally involved in the situation, you can't just go cleaning house in totality. You'd be firing a ton of innocent people, thereby making the situation and its affects worse than they already are. You'd ruin a ton of innocent folks' and their families' lives to satisfy a need for revenge. I'd bet that the vast majority of the Athletic Department had no clue. This is something that certain people were trying to keep under wraps, which implies that they weren't spreading stories to all their colleagues and underlings.

Find out the people involved, and deal with them as individuals. Don't execute people who weren't involved.

Kait14 said:
There was ONE student who understood the situation that ESPN interviewed, and was disgusted with the students rioting. ONE.. out of 2,000. Every time more information comes out I just become more enraged. Enabling a pedophile is nearly as disgusting as being a pedophile.
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It's the same really. Which brings to mind something I've been wondering about...where were the parents of the abused boys over the years (the ones that knew)? Why the hell didn't one of them go to the police and or at least make this all public (anonymously) long ago? If that happened to my kid, I wouldn't rest until I nailed that guy. A pedophilic act doesn't strike me as a one time deal. A number of innocent kids might have been spared.

If parents did go to the police, etc, and the police didn't help, then all the policemen involved are as culpable as Paterno. Same with legislature, etc.
 
Kait14 said:
Idk if anyone has said this because I just started reading the thread and came across this, but the DA that had been overseeing the case went missing and turned up dead.....
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He never turned up at all, Kait. He was declared dead in absentia just this past July . He is presumed dead. The mystery surrounding his disappearance and his destroyed computer hard drive is one more anomally in this horrible situation.
 
intlzncster said:
Honestly don't think it would make much difference. We are talking about an enormous amount of power, prestige and money involved here (not just the individuals involved, but the institution/brand as a whole). People will go to extreme lengths to satisfy those hoary masters. In these situations, people quite often just get in line. All people are corruptible. The idea that women are somehow 'morally superior' to men is a bit much.
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I didn't say women were morally superior to men. I agree that it's about power, prestige, and money. So, who has all 3, especially at PSU and Ftball? Men.

My pt was women and men ARE different, and IF more women were in power, (in catholic church and higher ed), things may be different. You don't think our instincts and reactions and behaviors to situations, especially those affecting children are different? Jaycee Dugard story is prime example. All the male parole officers missed it for years and years, but 2 women spotted something amiss and acted on it.
 
There remains one mystery to me. Paterno kept coaching to age 84. I am uncertain of interim coach Tom Bradley's age but I read that he has been at PSU as an assistant for 30+ years. Sandusky was retired at age 55.

Was his retirement completely voluntary? Was he pushed out the door? Given a nudge? Or was there some sort of a sub rosa agreement between him and the administration ("We are aware of what's been going on and want to keep the lid on it, so you retire and nobody says a word and the great image of PSU remains untarnished") that enabled Paterno's #2 guy and heir-apparent to leave at a relatively early age with a nice retirement package?

Maybe I am missing something but based on what I now know, something about Sandusky's age 55 retirement smells bad to me.
 
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