OT - Patriots

[HuskiesAllDay]

6 wins? They don't sweep the division regularly. Their record is more often 4-2.

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

 

[dsturdy5]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

Not a single good team twelve years? Aside from the two Jets teams, I can think of the 08 Dolphins went 11-5, the 06 Jets were 10-6, and the 05 Dolphins were 10-6...There are three more for you without much thought. No the AFC East is not the NFC West of this year or last but still...It hasn't always been dreck either.

 

[intlzncster]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

This is just not true. Here are the actual numbers. From 2002 to 2013, non division game records:

Division W L T Pct.
AFC East 259 221 0 54%
NFC East 253 226 1 53%
AFC North 246 232 2 52%
NFC South 251 228 1 52%
AFC West 231 249 0 48%
AFC South 249 231 0 52%
NFC North 225 255 0 47%
NFC West 204 276 0 43%

You'll notice the AFC East was the strongest division against opponents outside it's division. The Patriots make the rest of the division look bad.

 

[HuskyHawk]

B is the biggest one. This is the worst the offensive line has played in years; his time to throw is the lowest it's been in years. It's definitely affected him on those rare occasions when he has had time though.

We've got enough receiving talent right now. It all comes down to the O line.

If they somehow manage to get the line fixed, and Brady starts putting up his usual numbers, what's everyone going to say?

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

When I said Jimmy was better right now, that's what I meant. He's young, fearless and willing to make quick reads and unload the ball. Tom has gotten away from that and has to rediscover it. Blame the OL if you want, but he is taking forever to decide where to go with the ball and not seeing guys who are open. That's not what he used to be. It's not just the line, he used to burn teams that pressured him.

 

[intlzncster]

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

When I said Jimmy was better right now, that's what I meant. He's young, fearless and willing to make quick reads and unload the ball. Tom has gotten away from that and has to rediscover it. Blame the OL if you want, but he is taking forever to decide where to go with the ball and not seeing guys who are open. That's not what he used to be. It's not just the line, he used to burn teams that pressured him.

That's fair enough. But, neither Tom nor Peyton are what I'd call improvisational QBs; they rely on enomous amounts of study and going through their progressions. Peyton's not struggling like Tom is, and he's not the QB he used to be either. His line has done a far better job for him. (but yes, it's not all the Oline)

I absolutely agree with the bit about McDaniels. I also find that he outsmarts himself. He'll call a series of brilliant plays, but then call some head scratchers on 3rd down that just kill a drive. He's very inconsistent. I've never been enamored with him, but the results spoke for themselves, so I lived with it. I hear Charlie Weiss is looking for a job though. Sign him up.

So the conclusion is that it is the line, the OC, young recievers, and Tom himself. We are ducked.

 

[Robertelamin]

6 wins? They don't sweep the division regularly. Their record is more often 4-2.

The division has sucked for a long time. Other than Brady who is the most successful QB in the AFC East this last decade? Mark Sanchez? Chad Pennington?

 

[intlzncster]

The division has sucked for a long time. Other than Brady who is the most successful QB in the AFC East this last decade? Mark Sanchez? Chad Pennington?

Then why do AFC East teams continually beat teams outside their division at a greater rate than any other division does? It doesn't compute.

 

[intlzncster]

I will be surprised and thrilled. I don't think it is all about the line, or the time. I think Tom is simply great at certain things and not others, and the way defense is played has changed. He's not improvisational, and he's going to need to be. I put a fair amount on McDaniels, who hasn't created an offensive system that functions well against attacking defenses. I saw one very encouraging play all night, when Tom threw the ball into coverage and hit LaFell perfectly. It's the kind of risky ball he used to throw and hasn't in a few years and it went to somebody other than Julian.

2nd reply. I just happened to read an article by Tedy Bruschi, and it's apropos of what we were discussing. Not trying to belabor the point or prove you wrong at all Hawk, just thought I'd pass along the comments as Tedy explained it much better than I did. Clarification on what I was talking about:

Also, it's time to lower your expectations offensively ...I don't know what can be fixed right now offensively when you have offensive line problems like they have. When you think your two offensive tackles might show you some good play, and they're not doing that. Then with two rookies in there, and a rotation they tried to implement -- Nate Solder's out, Solder's in; Ryan Wendell comes in and plays guard when he was your starting center for two years. They have major problems up front.

I'm going to tell you this: Even if they had Wes Welker, Randy Moss and whatever offensive weapons you want to name, they'd still be struggling, because they can't block. As much as you want offensive production, football on offense is about blocking first. If you can't run the ball or protect, you'll never a get a chance to see anything else.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/new-england-patriots-kanas-city-chiefs-tom-brady/

 

[Lefty2one]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

That OL supremacy continued even after they stopped winning Super Bowls but it's finally gone now. Brady doesn't have an eternity in the pocket and their skill positions, while never that strong, are at their worst while Brady is now officially an old man. An ugly combination.

The AFC East might be the worst division in pro sports now. It'll be interesting to see how long Belichek sticks around and how they handle Brady, wonder if he'll get unceremoniously cut one day like so many other Patriot stars over the last 15 years.

 

[dsturdy5]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

Ahh, the false narrative continues...

 

[HuskyHawk]

2nd reply. I just happened to read an article by Tedy Bruschi, and it's apropos of what we were discussing. Not trying to belabor the point or prove you wrong at all Hawk, just thought I'd pass along the comments as Tedy explained it much better than I did. Clarification on what I was talking about:

Also, it's time to lower your expectations offensively ...I don't know what can be fixed right now offensively when you have offensive line problems like they have. When you think your two offensive tackles might show you some good play, and they're not doing that. Then with two rookies in there, and a rotation they tried to implement -- Nate Solder's out, Solder's in; Ryan Wendell comes in and plays guard when he was your starting center for two years. They have major problems up front.

I'm going to tell you this: Even if they had Wes Welker, Randy Moss and whatever offensive weapons you want to name, they'd still be struggling, because they can't block. As much as you want offensive production, football on offense is about blocking first. If you can't run the ball or protect, you'll never a get a chance to see anything else.

Clearly...and yet, with that line, and Colin Kapernick, the D could not just pin their ears back and come. He'd burn them with feet, or feet and arm. Essentially I am saying that an aging Tom B, who was immobile when young and now doesn't even sense the rush well, and who has become very set in his ways in terms of locating receivers, is probably the worst possible guy to play behind a porous OL.

I drafted Brady for my FF team, because they picked up Stork, who I think is an upgrade, and got Gronk back, plus a solid WR in LaFell and had Dobson coming into a possible strong sophomore year. Heck throw in a healthy Amendola, who would be a good player on most teams. Didn't expect this. Brady has weapons right now, certainly way more than last year.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Clearly...and yet, with that line, and Colin Kapernick, the D could not just pin their ears back and come. He'd burn them with feet, or feet and arm. Essentially I am saying that an aging Tom B, who was immobile when young and now doesn't even sense the rush well, and who has become very set in his ways in terms of locating receivers, is probably the worst possible guy to play behind a porous OL.

I drafted Brady for my FF team, because they picked up Stork, who I think is an upgrade, and got Gronk back, plus a solid WR in LaFell and had Dobson coming into a possible strong sophomore year. Heck throw in a healthy Amendola, who would be a good player on most teams. Didn't expect this. Brady has weapons right now, certainly way more than last year.

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

 

[intlzncster]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

I'd also add that they've activated and brought in a 6th offensive lineman as a 'tight end', at the expense of an inactive wide out, in order to plug some of the holes. Tough when the traditional 5 plus a regular tight end is not enough.

 

[HuskyHawk]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

LaFell was the only decent player on the whole Patriots team last night...maybe Vereen. Amendola isn't terrible, Tom just won't throw him the ball or misses him like last week. If you don't like Kapernick, substitute Russell Wilson...anybody mobile and able to improvise and make something out of a broken play. With this line, that's all they can hope for.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

This is just not true. Here are the actual numbers. From 2002 to 2013, non division game records:

Division W L T Pct.
AFC East 259 221 0 54%
NFC East 253 226 1 53%
AFC North 246 232 2 52%
NFC South 251 228 1 52%
AFC West 231 249 0 48%
AFC South 249 231 0 52%
NFC North 225 255 0 47%
NFC West 204 276 0 43%

You'll notice the AFC East was the strongest division against opponents outside it's division. The Patriots make the rest of the division look bad.

That doesn't change the argument unless you remove the Patriots record from it. I would guess that the Patriots skew that results significantly. You could remove all the division leaders to make it apples to apples. I still think that doesn't exactly fit the argument as the Patriots are the only team who have completely dominated their division over that time period.

My guess is that record goes below .500 for the rest of the conference without the Pats and probably well below .500.

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

You're the guy who said before that Garoppolo should start? And now you're saying that Kaepernick - who's erratic and demonstrates questionable decision-making on his good days - would thrive behind that O-line? I gotta question your acumen here. I'm not a Tom Brady fanboy by any means but no quarterback on the planet is going to succeed behind that line right now. And you're touting LaFell and Amendola like they're assets? They've been terrible. Hell, Gronkowski is a shell of his former self. It's sort of mind-boggling that you're trying to lay this on Brady. He's certainly declined, but he's not near the top of the list of problems with that offense right now.

Agree 100% with everything you said.

BUT, there is a big difference between succeeding and looking absolutely horrific (btw Rogers, Wilson, Peyton, Big Ben, Luck, even Cam would all do fine on this Pats team.) Cam has had a terrible o line and zero offensive help his entire career and he's done ok. The falcons lost everyone last year and their line was atrocious and Ryan did ok. Big Ben has no receivers outside Brown and an even worse O-line than the pats and he does ok.

PLUS he's Tom Brady. We have had it shoved down our throats for over a decade about how brilliant he is and how he's the greatest ever. Nobody should expect an 07 season from again, especially since he's 37, the o line has been bad, and differing opinions on his supporting cast and its talent level.

But he's supposed to be the greatest ever. Isn't he suppost to make up for some of these things?

The argument all along from Brady bashers has been that: while hes' very good, his greatness is a glorified product of a very good system and an excellent coach. Throw Rogers or Manning out on this Pats team and there's absolutely no way they look that inept. Blake freakin Bortles made his first start on a Jags team that has a far worse line and literally no talent to speak of and he looked like an decent qb. That's more than you can say about Brady right now. He doesn't even look ok. He looks absolutely terrible.

 

[jibsey]

I think Belichick outsmarted himself with a few of the offseason moves over the last couple of years.

Maybe a few more spies at other team's practices would help.

 

[jrazz12]

18-1

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Agree 100% with everything you said.

BUT, there is a big difference between succeeding and looking absolutely horrific (btw Rogers, Wilson, Peyton, Big Ben, Luck, even Cam would all do fine on this Pats team.) Cam has had a terrible o line and zero offensive help his entire career and he's done ok. The falcons lost everyone last year and their line was atrocious and Ryan did ok. Big Ben has no receivers outside Brown and an even worse O-line than the pats and he does ok.

PLUS he's Tom Brady. We have had it shoved down our throats for over a decade about how brilliant he is and how he's the greatest ever. Nobody should expect an 07 season from again, especially since he's 37, the o line has been bad, and differing opinions on his supporting cast and its talent level.

But he's supposed to be the greatest ever. Isn't he suppost to make up for some of these things?

The argument all along from Brady bashers has been that: while hes' very good, his greatness is a glorified product of a very good system and an excellent coach. Throw Rogers or Manning out on this Pats team and there's absolutely no way they look that inept. Blake freakin Bortles made his first start on a Jags team that has a far worse line and literally no talent to speak of and he looked like an decent qb. That's more than you can say about Brady right now. He doesn't even look ok. He looks absolutely terrible.

Then we don't agree 100%. First of all, the idea that those quarterbacks would "all do fine" is nothing but unfounded speculation. It would take Peyton and his surgically constructed spine about four snaps to suffer a career-ending injury on this Pats team. I'm not sure how you can compare what he works with in Denver to what we saw last night. But people who know a hell of a lot more about football than either one of us have said that. I also think - know - that you're underestimating what a problem the O-line currently is. But we'll see where New England ends up in November. I have a sense that a lot of this doomsday stuff will seem premature.

 

[intlzncster]

Then we don't agree 100%. First of all, the idea that those quarterbacks would "all do fine" is nothing but unfounded speculation. It would take Peyton and his surgically constructed spine about four snaps to suffer a career-ending injury on this Pats team. I'm not sure how you can compare what he works with in Denver to what we saw last night. But people who know a hell of a lot more about football than either one of us have said that. I also think - know - that you're underestimating what a problem the O-line currently is. But we'll see where New England ends up in November. I have a sense that a lot of this doomsday stuff will seem premature.

It happens every year, both in the offseason, and when they scuffle at the beginning of the year. People are always jumping all over themselves to claim the demise of the Pats.

That said, I'm not going to lie. I'm more concerned this year than I've been in the past.

 

[dsturdy5]

It happens every year, both in the offseason, and when they scuffle at the beginning of the year. People are always jumping all over themselves to claim the demise of the Pats.

That said, I'm not going to lie. I'm more concerned this year than I've been in the past.

This is precisely how I feel. I never really worry about the Patriots, and I feel like I have realistic expectations year in and year out. That being said, I'm getting concerned. If they are still playing this way in two or three weeks, I'll be in full panic mode. (Think "Boneyard after a regular season close game with Quinnipiac")

 

[upstater]

As a Patriots fan, I think they'd be better with Jimmy G at the helm right now. Kid can play. Tom might revive his season and career, but he's going to have to change his approach in order to do it. I'm tired of people blaming the receivers when good receivers who did well in other systems can't get a ball thrown their way from Brady.

Last year they asked Carson Palmer about Chad Johnson. Paraphrasing, he said, Chad gets open and can make catches, but he won't be at the exact spot you expect at the exact time you expect. You have to use your eyes, see him break open and throw him the ball. Brady won't do it for anyone. He throws to spots and expects the receiver is there. When your QB requires something from a WR that no other QB does, he's the problem. Tom just throws to Edelman because he's the only one who plays his game, not because he's actually any better than Amendola or Dobson or Lafell.

Oh my god, Garoppolo over Brady because of garbage time. Really? And if Chad Johnson was good, where did he end up after the Patriots? Nowhere. He was washed up. Heck, the guy wasn't even lining up in the right place. By the playoffs. He had no clue.

What receivers did well in other systems? Amendola? Before amendola got hurt last year, he caught 10 balls from Brady in one game. That guy has totally lost his explosiveness after his hernia.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Oh my god, Garoppolo over Brady because of garbage time. Really? And if Chad Johnson was good, where did he end up after the Patriots? Nowhere. He was washed up. Heck, the guy wasn't even lining up in the right place. By the playoffs. He had no clue.

What receivers did well in other systems? Amendola? Before amendola got hurt last year, he caught 10 balls from Brady in one game. That guy has totally lost his explosiveness after his hernia.

Agreed, it's hard to take seriously any anti-Brady argument that includes the purported wealth of skill position players at his disposal. He won three rings making some pretty anonymous receivers look good.

 

[upstater]

You mean like below, in your first post when you said he had his best season in 2013-2014?

"Go back and look at Brady's numbers early last year. It was ugly.
Those of you saying he's overrated may want to consider what happened in the last 24 months.
Brady had his best year ever in 2013-2014 when the Patriots scored the 4th most points in NFL history. So next September comes around, and he's pronounced finished because he can't complete passes."

Furthermore your facts are way off. Brady's best season was 2007, when NE scored the most points by a team in an NFL regular season, the team was 16-0 in the regular season, and he broke the what was at the time the TD record. Also, the Patriots did not score the 4th most points in NFL history last year (which you said in your first post). No idea where you got that stat but you may want to do some fact checking.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-seasonteam

That was my second post on the matter. Not my first.

And yes the Patriots scored the 4th most points in 2012-2013. It was Brady's best year because unlike 2007, the points came in the run of play instead of piling them up. Brady wasn't on a quest to break TD passing records. Instead, they ran the ball for 26 TDs, 4 of them by Brady. This was the year everyone was impressed by Aaron Rodgers for throwing an amazing # of TDs, only the Packers averaged a TD less per game than the Patriots, and the Packers ran for 7 TDs to the Patriots 26.

By the way, before telling me to do some fact checking, why not provide a link that isn't very dated? Your link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d825a2bb1/article/most-points-in-season-team) is from August 2012. This would be the equivalent of claiming Peyton Manning doesn't have the TD pass record with a link dated back from 2009.

 

[upstater]

Yes, it should be six wins. 5-1 just for sake of argument, because every team has a bad day (or bad team a good one). The division is dreadful. Save 2 good years from the Jets and there hasn't been a single good team in the division in 12 years.

I mean honestly, has there been one good quarterback in the AFC east in the last 12 years? I mean one? Or even better, how many all-pro caliber offensive players has there even been? I honestly cant think of many. Thomas Jones for a year or two on the Jets. Ricky Williams? Brandon Marshall for a year or whatever on the Dolphins, but even he was a mess then.

I mean that's staggering. 3 teams for 12 years, 6 skill guys (qb, rb, te, 3 wr) and there literally hasn't been any offensive stars in that division and not a single very good qb.

Marshawn Lynch. Willis McGahee.

 

[upstater]

Was in college from 2001-2005 up in Mass so regrettably I watched every Patriots game during their dynasty. The most amazing thing about that era, besides their ESP-like ability defensively to know what the opposition would do offensively (which all made sense later when Spygate dropped) was that Brady always had a phenomenal offensive line and all day to throw the football.

That OL supremacy continued even after they stopped winning Super Bowls but it's finally gone now. Brady doesn't have an eternity in the pocket and their skill positions, while never that strong, are at their worst while Brady is now officially an old man. An ugly combination.

The AFC East might be the worst division in pro sports now. It'll be interesting to see how long Belichek sticks around and how they handle Brady, wonder if he'll get unceremoniously cut one day like so many other Patriot stars over the last 15 years.

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

 

[intlzncster]

Marshawn Lynch. Willis McGahee.

Curtis Martin. HOF.

(there's been more, but still.)

 

[intlzncster]

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

He doesn't want to hear it. That's one thing I've learned over the years, the spygaters just want to be able to say "spygate". It's the 'UCONN players stole laptops' of the NFL.

There's no use offering logic to combat willful ignorance.

 

[Fishy]

I don't want to get into Spygate but clearly you don't know what Spygate was about.

The offensive plays are sent in to the QB through a radio in his helmet. Unless Edward Snowden has evidence that the Patriots tapped into those frequencies then you need to come up with another theory.

I don't think those helmets can into use until after spygate was uncovered - I think their first year was the year after the Patriots were caught filming defensive signals at Giants Stadium. (2007?)