OT - Patriots

[HuskyHawk]

I think a lot of the consecutive winning seasons has to do with playing in what is consistently one of the worst conferences, the AFC East. The Bills/Jets/Dolphins have all been bad for a very long time. What was the best QB has Brady has had to consistently duel it out with from the AFC East? Mark Sanchez? Ryan Fitzpatrick? Pats also have had good coaching and front office management which goes a long way towards winning. But they've done it against mostly inferior competition in their division. Now, the pats, along with Brady, are no longer an elite team. Wouldn't be surprised if the Dolphins or Bills take the division.

This is BS. They play a brutal out of division schedule every year, because they nearly always reach the AFC championship game. Miami is good, Buffalo is ok, and the Jets were good for awhile. Division isn't as bad as people think. Every division has been terrible from time time.

Brady wasn't overrated either, but I think he's done. The Patriots' approach relied on a delicate, timing based system. But two things have changed.
1. his timing isn't there. I am tired of blaming the receivers for this, it's him, not them. This group of receivers is better than what he had in at least two super bowl wins.
2. Defenses defend the pass differently. Most teams don't just play nickel and dime, which Brady used to shred, they disrupt by blitzing and bumping receivers to disrupt timing based offenses. Tom's reactions aren't quick anymore, he takes forever to pick out a receiver, often the wrong one.

 

[dsturdy5]

Kraft is cheap? His head coach is among the highest paid in sports. He doles out large sums of cash to Darrell Revis, Jerrod Mayo, Brady, etc, etc etc. He made Mankins the highest paid guard in league history at the time. Wilfork was the highest paid NT for a long time. He is anything but cheap but the narrative says he is because they cut players a year early rather than let the team sit in salary cap hell. It is Belichick who puts the value on the players and his system and methodology has worked for 15 years.

The Mankins deal is what people are hanging their hat on. Look at how they did without him last year. Look at how bad he was in weeks 17 and the playoffs last year. Before this week, the OL he is on right now was rated the worst in the NFL with him. Explain that one away.

Defensively this team has played aggressive once all year and they dominated. Not sure why they haven't done it since. The defense has the weapons to control games, that falls on the coaching staff.

Offensively, I'd dress Dobson and Thomkins the rest of the way in place of an extra OL. At least they can get open and know the system. What is killing them is the lack of speed offensively. Even guys like Vareen who are supposed to be difference makers, look tentative.

The season isn't over. They have been 2-2 before and been fine when all is said and done. I'm not panicking yet.

 

[Kembacity]

Good, maybe all these Pats fans can sit down and shut up, and realize that the celtics suck too so they should hop on the UConn fanwagon for some excitement this year

I'm not a football fan, but Brady is one of the least athletic looking superstar athletes around. I think he should have been spending his offseasons getting into prime physical shape rather than worrying about how he looks at fashion shows and so on. If you arent a muscular beast, you wont age into your late 30s as an athlete very well, Paul Pierce as an exception

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

They've been in the AFC Championship every other year of Brady's career, so how do they advance that far because of a weak division? Seems they'd be stopped in their tracks long before winning two playoff games.

Obviously the Pats have been very good for very long. But being in that dreadful division certainly cant be ignored.

They play the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills each twice a year. That's 6 wins there if the Pats are any good. Go 6-4 in the rest of the ten and boom 12-4, first round bye and you win ONE GAME...at home... in Foxboro..when its freezing..and voila youre in the AFC championship game.

Look at last year. Beat an average Colts team at home and they're in the AFC championship game...

 

[HuskiesAllDay]

I don't think anyone can ever accuse the Patriots of relying on a core of anything - they might be more willing than any organization outside of the Red Sox to get rid of aging/expensive players.

Tom Brady is getting older and he's flat-out allergic to contact, but if you're going to replace him, you better have a really, really good replacement. Your worst nightmare would be if Brady goes to some plug-and-play situation and throws for eighty-gazillion yards.

That's sixteen-gazillion 5 yard passes....

 

[upstater]

Obviously the Pats have been very good for very long. But being in that dreadful division certainly cant be ignored.

They play the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills each twice a year. That's 6 wins there if the Pats are any good. Go 6-4 in the rest of the ten and boom 12-4, first round bye and you win ONE GAME...at home... in Foxboro..when its freezing..and voila youre in the AFC championship game.

Look at last year. Beat an average Colts team at home and they're in the AFC championship game...

6 wins? They don't sweep the division regularly. Their record is more often 4-2.

 

[upstater]

Good, maybe all these Pats fans can sit down and shut up, and realize that the celtics suck too so they should hop on the UConn fanwagon for some excitement this year

I'm not a football fan, but Brady is one of the least athletic looking superstar athletes around. I think he should have been spending his offseasons getting into prime physical shape rather than worrying about how he looks at fashion shows and so on. If you arent a muscular beast, you wont age into your late 30s as an athlete very well, Paul Pierce as an exception

Is this comedy?

 

[upstater]

This is BS. They play a brutal out of division schedule every year, because they nearly always reach the AFC championship game. Miami is good, Buffalo is ok, and the Jets were good for awhile. Division isn't as bad as people think. Every division has been terrible from time time.

Brady wasn't overrated either, but I think he's done. The Patriots' approach relied on a delicate, timing based system. But two things have changed.
1. his timing isn't there. I am tired of blaming the receivers for this, it's him, not them. This group of receivers is better than what he had in at least two super bowl wins.
2. Defenses defend the pass differently. Most teams don't just play nickel and dime, which Brady used to shred, they disrupt by blitzing and bumping receivers to disrupt timing based offenses. Tom's reactions aren't quick anymore, he takes forever to pick out a receiver, often the wrong one.

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, etc. were very good. LaFell and Edelman are better than that? No.

Let me state this again: the Patriots had their best offensive year in 2013-2014, and a few short months later, when their 4 top pass catchers were gone, they became abysmal on offense.

How is this not the likeliest explanation for the problems? When you go from Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez and Lloyd to Edelman and a bunch of street free agents in half a year, and you see different results, why in the world would anyone draw anything but the most obvious conclusion?

 

[aceboon]

the turnovers were a new touch, but Brady has been on the decline for awhile now and the media still categorizing him as an elite QB hasn't matched what I've been seeing for a few years as a Pats fan. kinda weird listening to sports talk radio and watching ESPN and people acting like this is something new, what have people been watching?

 

[upstater]

This the play (Hali) you are referring to? https://vine.co/v/OmzzAE22VqD

Let's face it, Solder has been woeful. He got benched in this game. Maybe Mankins ability at right guard was giving Solder more of an advantage than anyone thought.

I still think it's the O-line on offense. Brady has had less time to throw than in years past. The best receivers in the world aren't going to help if you can't get the ball out. He's been taking a beating too. Huge problem as he's an old dude now. If they don't get the O-line issues fixed, Brady might be dead by the end of the season. Maybe Dante Scarnecchia really was the Wizard of Oz.

Yes, this play. They showed the view from behind Brady to show what he was looking out. Gronk broke wide open.

 

[upstater]

the turnovers were a new touch, but Brady has been on the decline for awhile now and the media still categorizing him as an elite QB hasn't matched what I've been seeing for a few years as a Pats fan. kinda weird listening to sports talk radio and watching ESPN and people acting like this is something new, what have people been watching?

What have you been seeing for a few years? I mean, 2012-2013 was fantastic. The poor play began last season.

 

[Deepster]

The Patriots under Belichick and Kraft are a system franchise. You take out Vinatieri, pay less money to Gostkowski and don't lose a step. Let Welker go, slide Edelman in that role, don't lose a step. That's why people think they're seen as "cheap". It's misleading.

That being said, that "system" approach applies to everyone on the roster....except Brady. He was the one coach on the field who made the system effective if it was Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Donte Stallworth, etc. You could plug and play any other position in and it was fine. The facts are now that his skill set is declining. Advanced metrics like "completion % under pressure" show him as no longer in the tier of a Brees or Rodgers.

You have:

a) Less talent in the receiving corp
b) A worse offensive line
c) A declining physical skill set

He's been able to overcome A and B at other points in his career. With C now in play? He simply can't.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, etc. were very good. LaFell and Edelman are better than that? No.

Let me state this again: the Patriots had their best offensive year in 2013-2014, and a few short months later, when their 4 top pass catchers were gone, they became abysmal on offense.

How is this not the likeliest explanation for the problems? When you go from Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez and Lloyd to Edelman and a bunch of street free agents in half a year, and you see different results, why in the world would anyone draw anything but the most obvious conclusion?

Why do you keep saying 2013-2014? That would be last season, meaning that of all those players you list only Gronkowski and Edelman were on the roster.

 

[dsturdy5]

Obviously the Pats have been very good for very long. But being in that dreadful division certainly cant be ignored.

They play the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills each twice a year. That's 6 wins there if the Pats are any good. Go 6-4 in the rest of the ten and boom 12-4, first round bye and you win ONE GAME...at home... in Foxboro..when its freezing..and voila youre in the AFC championship game.

Look at last year. Beat an average Colts team at home and they're in the AFC championship game...

Yet they typically go 4-2 or 5-1 in division, which means they are going 12-2 or 11-3 out of division. I'd say that is more indicative of the type of team they have been over the past 14 years.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Why do you keep saying 2013-2014? That would be last season, meaning that of all those players you list only Gronkowski and Edelman were on the roster.

Agreed. Offense, except the running game, was pretty poor last year.

 

[HuskyHawk]

This the play (Hali) you are referring to? https://vine.co/v/OmzzAE22VqD

Let's face it, Solder has been woeful. He got benched in this game. Maybe Mankins ability at right guard was giving Solder more of an advantage than anyone thought.

I still think it's the O-line on offense. Brady has had less time to throw than in years past. The best receivers in the world aren't going to help if you can't get the ball out. He's been taking a beating too. Huge problem as he's an old dude now. If they don't get the O-line issues fixed, Brady might be dead by the end of the season. Maybe Dante Scarnecchia really was the Wizard of Oz.

Terrible block, but Hali was clearly offsides as well.

 

[upstater]

Why do you keep saying 2013-2014? That would be last season, meaning that of all those players you list only Gronkowski and Edelman were on the roster.

I didn't keep saying it. I referred to 2012-2013 both the first and last time I said that, but messed it up with the middle mention.

 

[boba]

Obviously the Pats have been very good for very long. But being in that dreadful division certainly cant be ignored.

They play the Jets, Dolphins, and Bills each twice a year. That's 6 wins there if the Pats are any good. Go 6-4 in the rest of the ten and boom 12-4, first round bye and you win ONE GAME...at home... in Foxboro..when its freezing..and voila youre in the AFC championship game.

Note that Deepster, fan of soon to be 1-6 (One and Six enroute to Six and Ten season) Jets liked this. He liked it as as much as I enjoy watching the J-E-T-S Lose Lose Lose!

 

[upstater]

The Patriots under Belichick and Kraft are a system franchise. You take out Vinatieri, pay less money to Gostkowski and don't lose a step. Let Welker go, slide Edelman in that role, don't lose a step. That's why people think they're seen as "cheap". It's misleading.

That being said, that "system" approach applies to everyone on the roster....except Brady. He was the one coach on the field who made the system effective if it was Reche Caldwell, Troy Brown, Donte Stallworth, etc. You could plug and play any other position in and it was fine. The facts are now that his skill set is declining. Advanced metrics like "completion % under pressure" show him as no longer in the tier of a Brees or Rodgers.

You have:

a) Less talent in the receiving corp
b) A worse offensive line
c) A declining physical skill set

He's been able to overcome A and B at other points in his career. With C now in play? He simply can't.

The problem with overcoming A in 2006 is that the offensive numbers were just as poor that year.

In fact, Brady had a 66 yard total passing performance against the Dolphins midseason that year and followed it up with a 120 yard performance against the Texans. His year totals were 24 TDs and 12 INTs which were worse than last year (2013-2014), and clearly a result of throwing to Reche Caldwell and Donte Stallworth instead of Deion Branch and David Givens. The offense was so bad that Belichick rushed out and grabbed Wes Welker the next year and Randy Moss.

The offense went from 3000 yards passing to 5000 yards passing and they broke records. Brady had 4000 yards in 2005 with Branch and Givens.

When you look at Brady's career, (A) has always been the most significant factor when it comes to his performance.

The 2005 to 2006 to 2007 seasons showed drastic changes in his performance. 2005 was Branch/Givens, 2006 was Caldwell/Stallworth, 2007 was Moss/Welker. Then you jump to 2012-2013 with 4 good WRs and the 4th most points scored in NFL history to Edelman. Huge change.

Every older QB declines with age. No doubt C is a factor. But when I see drastic changes in 6 months, I can't imagine the guy has physically declined that much in a few short months.

 

[Deepster]

Note that Deepster, fan of soon to be 1-6 (One and Six enroute to Six and Ten season) Jets liked this. He liked it as as much as I enjoy watching the J-E-T-S Lose Lose Lose!

I've followed that losing franchise for 35 years. I'm at the point where I watch NFL Redzone and root for my FFL players, instead of wasting time watching the Geno Smith caliber QB's bumble their way to another 7-9 season.

And after seeing what happened when Calhoun retired from UConn, I am not holding my breath for the imminent demise of the Pats when Brady and Belichick hang 'em up.

 

[Danzz]

Kraft is cheap? His head coach is among the highest paid in sports. He doles out large sums of cash to Darrell Revis, Jerrod Mayo, Brady, etc, etc etc. He made Mankins the highest paid guard in league history at the time. Wilfork was the highest paid NT for a long time. He is anything but cheap but the narrative says he is because they cut players a year early rather than let the team sit in salary cap hell. It is Belichick who puts the value on the players and his system and methodology has worked for 15 years.

The Mankins deal is what people are hanging their hat on. Look at how they did without him last year. Look at how bad he was in weeks 17 and the playoffs last year. Before this week, the OL he is on right now was rated the worst in the NFL with him. Explain that one away.

Defensively this team has played aggressive once all year and they dominated. Not sure why they haven't done it since. The defense has the weapons to control games, that falls on the coaching staff.

Offensively, I'd dress Dobson and Thomkins the rest of the way in place of an extra OL. At least they can get open and know the system. What is killing them is the lack of speed offensively. Even guys like Vareen who are supposed to be difference makers, look tentative.

The season isn't over. They have been 2-2 before and been fine when all is said and done. I'm not panicking yet.

Twice that I know of Brady took a less than market value contract so that Kraft could resign receivers and both times he didn't do it. Lankins and Welker are 2 more examples and I'm sure there are more. As far as the season is concerned I'd be surprised if the Pats don't make the playoffs but unless they get very lucky they will be out quick. They may even win their very weak division.
I don't know why Brady doesn't like to throw to Amendola but he doesn't very often. Maybe he is pissed that they didn't sign Welker or maybe he has no confidence in him..

 

[HuskyHawk]

I've followed that losing franchise for 35 years. I'm at the point where I watch NFL Redzone and root for my FFL players, instead of wasting time watching the Geno Smith caliber QB's bumble their way to another 7-9 season.

And after seeing what happened when Calhoun retired from UConn, I am not holding my breath for the imminent demise of the Pats when Brady and Belichick hang 'em up.

As a Patriots fan, I think they'd be better with Jimmy G at the helm right now. Kid can play. Tom might revive his season and career, but he's going to have to change his approach in order to do it. I'm tired of people blaming the receivers when good receivers who did well in other systems can't get a ball thrown their way from Brady.

Last year they asked Carson Palmer about Chad Johnson. Paraphrasing, he said, Chad gets open and can make catches, but he won't be at the exact spot you expect at the exact time you expect. You have to use your eyes, see him break open and throw him the ball. Brady won't do it for anyone. He throws to spots and expects the receiver is there. When your QB requires something from a WR that no other QB does, he's the problem. Tom just throws to Edelman because he's the only one who plays his game, not because he's actually any better than Amendola or Dobson or Lafell.

 

[Scoe]

Teams like the Giants and Ravens have provided the blueprint on how to beat the Pats, and the talent on the Pats has only gotten worse. I still think they get it together and win a weak AFC East, but Brady getting killed behind that Oline this early is a concern. They have no deep threats, Edelman is good but would be better of as a 3rd receiver, Amendola is made of glass, we don't know how healthy Gronk is.

 

[dsturdy5]

Twice that I know of Brady took a less than market value contract so that Kraft could resign receivers and both times he didn't do it. Lankins and Welker are 2 more examples and I'm sure there are more. As far as the season is concerned I'd be surprised if the Pats don't make the playoffs but unless they get very lucky they will be out quick. They may even win their very weak division.
I don't know why Brady doesn't like to throw to Amendola but he doesn't very often. Maybe he is pissed that they didn't sign Welker or maybe he has no confidence in him..

He took less than market value for the team to be built around him, not necessarily with receivers. He's said as much.

 

[dsturdy5]

On Amendola, I'm shocked at his lack of production but also, he's had three huge 3rd down receptions wiped out on penalties this year. One in each of the first three games.