OT - Patriots

[Husky25]

Ahh he's a California boy, can't take the cold, unlike Tom...uh, never mind.

Seriously, that game looks like a Superbowl preview at the moment. Patriots have a pretty brutal schedule this year and can't look past the Lions.

Yeah, and he can't even use the excuse that Brady is a Northern California guy, where it is colder. They are both from the bay area.

 

[I Bleed Blue]

Yeah, Rogers hates playing in the cold. He sucked yesterday. He's plays well under sunny Green Bay skies...wait, WHAT?!?!

Never said anything about Rodgers not excelling in the cold. Both QBs are great cold weather QBs. All I said is I hope its cold and Brady likes it lol. But hey

We're on to Detroit.

 

[Husky25]

Never said anything about Rodgers not excelling in the cold. Both QBs are great cold weather QBs. All I said is I hope its cold and Brady likes it lol. But hey

We're on to Detroit.

You do understand that you implied the if it's cold, the Patriots have the advantage. That just is not the case vs the Packers. The Patriots advantage is not weather. The Patriots advantage is Tom Brady.

News Flash: Brady like warm weather as well as 72 degrees and 1 MPH winds out of the North, South, East, and West.

From Pro football reference:

Brady is 10-2 in domes (83%), 3-2 (60%) if the roof is retractable, and 143-43 in the open air (77%).

Rogers is 10-8 in domes, 2-1 under retractable roofs, and 56-27 in the open air.

Of course this doesn't really say anything about the player directly, because there are other things that go into winning games (I read somewhere that defense, special teams and a running game are pretty important to win loss records).

That said, according to ESPN from last November, Rodgers (11-4, up to that point) actually has a better completion percentage in freezing temps than Brady (24-5).

 

[upstater]

The thing that confuses people in this discussion is that Brady has played fantastic in snow and 20-35 degree weather. He has had his worst games of his career in 5-15 degree weather. Against the Titans in 2003 playoffs, San Diego in the 2007 playoffs, Baltimore in the 2012 playoffs. Now, the Patriots won all 3 games, but don't forget Brady's immortal words after the Ravens game, "I sucked tonight."

I was at the San Diego game. It was 10 degrees that night. Brady had trouble throwing. His fingers were frozen.

 

[Husky25]

The thing that confuses people in this discussion is that Brady has played fantastic in snow and 20-35 degree weather. He has had his worst games of his career in 5-15 degree weather. Against the Titans in 2003 playoffs, San Diego in the 2007 playoffs, Baltimore in the 2012 playoffs. Now, the Patriots won all 3 games, but don't forget Brady's immortal words after the Ravens game, "I sucked tonight."

I was at the San Diego game. It was 10 degrees that night. Brady had trouble throwing. His fingers were frozen.

He also sucked in the Tuck rule game and was merely serviceable, by Brady standards, in the 2003 AFC Championship (I was there). Defense won that game.

 

[upstater]

He also sucked in the Tuck rule game and was merely serviceable, by Brady standards, in the 2003 AFC Championship (I was there). Defense won that game.

Is this a joke? Brady completed 10 straight passes to lead the Patriots back. In one huge drive, he did this:

1st and 10 at NWE 33Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 47Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Kevin Faulk (NWE) for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 at OAK 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 3 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 43Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Troy Brown (NWE) for 8 yards.
2nd and 2 at OAK 35Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 11 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 20Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 6 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 10Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 6Tom Brady (NWE) rushed up the middle for a 6 yard touchdown.139
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.1310

You think this describes sucking?

"Still, he finished the game with 32 completions in 52 attempts for 312 yards, 238 in the second half."

238 yards in one half in horrendous conditions?

Gannon, who was one of the top NFL QBs at the time, did this: "Gannon completed 17 of 31 passes but no receiver collected more than Rice's 48 yards."

As for the Colts 2003 game, Brady didn't need to do much. Patriots were up 15-0 at halftime and coasted. The Patriots didn't punt once that half.

Here was the opening drive:

1st and 10 at NWE 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 1 at NWE 44Larry Centers (NWE) rushed for no gain.
4th and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) rushed for 2 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at IND 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 22Indy timeout; 10:30 remaining 1st quarter
1st and 10 at IND 22Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 17Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 1 yard.
3rd and 4 at IND 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 7 at IND 7Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for a 7 yard touchdown.06
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.07

The Patriots did what they needed to do, which was score and get on top quick. Take the lead to halftime, then take the air out of the pigskin by running, running, running it. You wanted Brady to sling the ball around in freezing conditions with a good lead? Why?

 

[johnhuskies95]

Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback I've ever seen.

He's easily the most efficient quarterback of all time, and his stats at this point of his career are significantly better than anyone in the history of the league comparatively(outside of volume stats like yards and touchdowns).

But ignoring the stats, what makes him so good is that essentially no throw is off limits for him. He just has a ridiculous arm.

 

[Matt (Chicago)]

I'll be in GB for the game next week... should be an absolute battle, cant wait.

 

[upstater]

He's easily the most efficient quarterback of all time, and his stats at this point of his career are significantly better than anyone in the history of the league comparatively(outside of volume stats like yards and touchdowns).

But ignoring the stats, what makes him so good is that essentially no throw is off limits for him. He just has a ridiculous arm.

Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.

 

[superjohn]

Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.

Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.

 

[upstater]

Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.

That makes sense to me.

It's the stats thing that doesn't make sense. I read the word "efficiency" earlier in your argument, which to me is code for QBR. QBR does lie.

These stats don't even include the second most popular way to score touchdowns in the NFL. Don't you think that's absurd?

 

[johnhuskies95]

Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.

The thing is he's so much better than the competition in so many of those stats. Even if you don't value quarterback rating(for whatever reason), his TD/INT ratio is enough to legitimately call him the GOAT if you wanted to.

 

[johnhuskies95]

Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.

That's the other thing. If you just go by the eye test, I think a lot of people would objectively agree that Rodgers is the best.

 

[upstater]

The thing is he's so much better than the competition in so many of those stats. Even if you don't value quarterback rating(for whatever reason), his TD/INT ratio is enough to legitimately call him the GOAT if you wanted to.

If you go post rules change in 2006, both Brady and Rodgers are in the midst of their 7th season. Since the rules change, Brady is 236 Tds to 61 Ints. Rodgers is 215 TDs to 54 Ints. I would not call this so much better for Rodgers though it is slightly better.

Rodgers is at 25.1% Ints to TDs while Brady is at 25.8%. They are very similar.

But let me give you an example of why I don't like QB ratings.

In 2012, Rodgers had one of his best seasons ever. He was touted for the NFL MVP and finished a very close second to Adrian Petersen. This is what Rodgers did:

39 TDs, 8 INTs, 4,295 yards, 108 rating. Those are fantastic MVP stats.

But, what do they miss?

While the stats are better than Brady's line...

34 TDs, 8 INTs, 4,827 yards, 98.7 rating

...they put a heavy emphasis on TD passes and completely eliminate rushing TDs from the equation. The Patriots were not a running juggernaut that year, and yet they ran the ball for 26 TDs. They passed for 2.5x more yards than rushing yards. Brady himself had 4 of those rushing TDs.

The Packers had 7 rushing TDs.

To me, this is a stat that is totally ignored by QB-centric stats, and it misses a huge part of the game, which is how the QB helps his team get into position to score, and actual scoring on the ground.

I think this is part of the new mania for fantasy stats. People used to have a much more balanced vision of what a QB did for his team, but right now we're looking for stats that isolate scoring only when the QB passes the ball forward, and not everything he does to get his team into that position in the first place.

 

[I Bleed Blue]

If I need to win one game with a bunch of average joe's (let alone stars) I'm taking Brady over anybody. I don't give a crap about stats.

And another thought on the Pats-Packers game in a couple weeks:

Like I said before I its strength on strength with the Green Bay WRs and New England's secondary. I think Revis, DMC and company can handle or at least limit the Packers passing game. Lacy may have a big day because the Pats will be in sub-packages all game. He'll have some running room. On the other side of the ball, I'm pretty confident the Packers D won't be able to stop New England's offense. No real answer for Gronk and the Packers struggle against the run.

 

[mauconnfan]

If I need to win one game with a bunch of average joe's (let alone stars) I'm taking Brady over anybody. I don't give a crap about stats.

And another thought on the Pats-Packers game in a couple weeks:

Like I said before I its strength on strength with the Green Bay WRs and New England's secondary. I think Revis, DMC and company can handle or at least limit the Packers passing game. Lacy may have a big day because the Pats will be in sub-packages all game. He'll have some running room. On the other side of the ball, I'm pretty confident the Packers D won't be able to stop New England's offense. No real answer for Gronk and the Packers struggle against the run.

Yeah no doubt. Pats best team ever! Who could handle them?

 

[Husky25]

Is this a joke? Brady completed 10 straight passes to lead the Patriots back. In one huge drive, he did this:

1st and 10 at NWE 33Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 47Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Kevin Faulk (NWE) for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 at OAK 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 3 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 43Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Troy Brown (NWE) for 8 yards.
2nd and 2 at OAK 35Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 11 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 20Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 6 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 10Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 6Tom Brady (NWE) rushed up the middle for a 6 yard touchdown.139
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.1310

You think this describes sucking?

"Still, he finished the game with 32 completions in 52 attempts for 312 yards, 238 in the second half."

238 yards in one half in horrendous conditions?

Gannon, who was one of the top NFL QBs at the time, did this: "Gannon completed 17 of 31 passes but no receiver collected more than Rice's 48 yards."

As for the Colts 2003 game, Brady didn't need to do much. Patriots were up 15-0 at halftime and coasted. The Patriots didn't punt once that half.

Here was the opening drive:

1st and 10 at NWE 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 1 at NWE 44Larry Centers (NWE) rushed for no gain.
4th and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) rushed for 2 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at IND 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 22Indy timeout; 10:30 remaining 1st quarter
1st and 10 at IND 22Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 17Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 1 yard.
3rd and 4 at IND 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 7 at IND 7Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for a 7 yard touchdown.06
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.07

The Patriots did what they needed to do, which was score and get on top quick. Take the lead to halftime, then take the air out of the pigskin by running, running, running it. You wanted Brady to sling the ball around in freezing conditions with a good lead? Why?

Didn't catch the part where I said I was at the 2003 AFC Championship game, huh?

As for the Snow Bowl, 7-0 against at the half and 13-3 entering the 4th quarter. I watched that game too. Thanks for the stats but three drives does not a game make.

 

[I Bleed Blue]

Yeah no doubt. Pats best team ever! Who could handle them?

I'm sensing some sarcasm there mau but glad to hear we are in agreement.

 

[upstater]

Didn't catch the part where I said I was at the 2003 AFC Championship game, huh?

As for the Snow Bowl, 7-0 against at the half and 13-3 entering the 4th quarter. I watched that game too. Thanks for the stats but three drives does not a game make.

That's the 2003 Championship game. What are you talking about?

You said he was bad in the Raiders game. He was not. And, in fact, 3 drives did make that game. It was played in horribly bad weather with steady high winds. He played well. He also played well in the 2003 AFCCG. I have no idea what else you are trying to say about 2003.

 

[Husky25]

That's the 2003 Championship game. What are you talking about?

You said he was bad in the Raiders game. He was not. And, in fact, 3 drives did make that game. It was played in horribly bad weather with steady high winds. He played well. He also played well in the 2003 AFCCG. I have no idea what else you are trying to say about 2003.

I didn't need the play run down for the '03 game, I was there...And I didn't say he was bad. I said he "was merely serviceable, by Brady standards...Defense won that game."

I don't base the quality of play a game on stats alone. The eye test is huge for me. That said, maybe "suck" is too strong of a word for the Snow Bowl, but he did not play the entire at the same level he played the 4th quarter. He couldn't sustain a drive in the first half to save his life and three drives at the end of the game made it an exciting contest (and of course the tuck rule), but there were about a dozen other drives where Brady did his team no favors.

I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied (Everyone and there brother was expecting Raider ball), Brady is not talked about with such reverence that had become...and I say this as a Brady Fan.

 

[upstater]

I didn't need the play run down for the '03 game, I was there...And I didn't say he was bad. I said he "was merely serviceable, by Brady standards...Defense won that game."

I don't base the quality of play a game on stats alone. The eye test is huge for me. That said, maybe "suck" is too strong of a word for the Snow Bowl, but he did not play the entire at the same level he played the 4th quarter. He couldn't sustain a drive in the first half to save his life and three drives at the end of the game made it an exciting contest (and of course the tuck rule), but there were about a dozen other drives where Brady did his team no favors.

I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied (Everyone and there brother was expecting Raider ball), Brady is not talked about with such reverence that had become...and I say this as a Brady Fan.

Look at Gannon. Pro Bowler. In those conditions, you take what you can get. 300+ yards passing is noting to sneeze at.

How was the tuck rule misapplied? It was applied down to the letter. As for the tuck rule being little known, it was not that way for Patriots fans. Without the application of the tuck rule that season, the Patriots don't even play the Raiders in the playoffs. Since the Patriots lost a game when the tuck rule was applied that year.

 

[Husky25]

Look at Gannon. Pro Bowler. In those conditions, you take what you can get. 300+ yards passing is noting to sneeze at.

How was the tuck rule misapplied? It was applied down to the letter. As for the tuck rule being little known, it was not that way for Patriots fans. Without the application of the tuck rule that season, the Patriots don't even play the Raiders in the playoffs. Since the Patriots lost a game when the tuck rule was applied that year.

Jeezsus!!!!

The order is 1) read, 2) comprehend, 3) formulate response, 4) reply

Your process seems to be: 1) skim, 2) feign outrage, 3) angrily reply. Those middle two steps are fairly important.

After this, I'm not going to re-quote myself back to you. I SAID: "I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied..."

I'm aware it was applied correctly. Hence my phrasing. There is really no point in debating this topic with you if you're just going to argue against what I didn't say (or write, as the case may be). I look forward to discussing other subjects with you, Upstater, but this one has been put to bed as far as I'm concerned. The Patriots and Brady are important to me because they are my local team and the team to which I have an unhealthy allegiance since childhood is gawdawful. Bob Kraft has kept me football-sane since 1994. However, that doesn't mean I can't be critical.

 

[upstater]

Jeezsus!!!!

The order is 1) read, 2) comprehend, 3) formulate response, 4) reply

Your process seems to be: 1) skim, 2) feign outrage, 3) angrily reply. Those middle two steps are fairly important.

After this, I'm not going to re-quote myself back to you. I SAID: "I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied..."

I'm aware it was applied correctly. Hence my phrasing. There is really no point in debating this topic with you if you're just going to argue against what I didn't say (or write, as the case may be). I look forward to discussing other subjects with you, Upstater, but this one has been put to bed as far as I'm concerned. The Patriots and Brady are important to me because they are my local team and the team to which I have an unhealthy allegiance since childhood is gawdawful. Bob Kraft has kept me football-sane since 1994. However, that doesn't mean I can't be critical.

I'll remind myself next time that you speak in triple negatives.

 

[Husky25]

I'll remind myself next time that you speak in triple negatives.

The irony being that there is barely a single negative, let alone three. C'est la vie.

 

[dsturdy5]

To recap:

Patriots held the highest scoring offense to their lowest point total of the year last week.

Patriots scored the most points this season against the best ppg defense in the league this week.

Next week will be fun.