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Husky25 said:
He also sucked in the Tuck rule game and was merely serviceable, by Brady standards, in the 2003 AFC Championship (I was there). Defense won that game.
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Is this a joke? Brady completed 10 straight passes to lead the Patriots back. In one huge drive, he did this:

1st and 10 at NWE 33Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 47Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Kevin Faulk (NWE) for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 at OAK 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 3 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 43Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Troy Brown (NWE) for 8 yards.
2nd and 2 at OAK 35Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 11 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 20Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 6 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 10Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 6Tom Brady (NWE) rushed up the middle for a 6 yard touchdown.139
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.1310

You think this describes sucking?

"Still, he finished the game with 32 completions in 52 attempts for 312 yards, 238 in the second half."

238 yards in one half in horrendous conditions?

Gannon, who was one of the top NFL QBs at the time, did this: "Gannon completed 17 of 31 passes but no receiver collected more than Rice's 48 yards."

As for the Colts 2003 game, Brady didn't need to do much. Patriots were up 15-0 at halftime and coasted. The Patriots didn't punt once that half.

Here was the opening drive:

1st and 10 at NWE 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 1 at NWE 44Larry Centers (NWE) rushed for no gain.
4th and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) rushed for 2 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at IND 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 22Indy timeout; 10:30 remaining 1st quarter
1st and 10 at IND 22Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 17Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 1 yard.
3rd and 4 at IND 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 7 at IND 7Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for a 7 yard touchdown.06
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.07

The Patriots did what they needed to do, which was score and get on top quick. Take the lead to halftime, then take the air out of the pigskin by running, running, running it. You wanted Brady to sling the ball around in freezing conditions with a good lead? Why?
 
superjohn said:
Aaron Rodgers is the best quarterback I've ever seen.
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He's easily the most efficient quarterback of all time, and his stats at this point of his career are significantly better than anyone in the history of the league comparatively(outside of volume stats like yards and touchdowns).

But ignoring the stats, what makes him so good is that essentially no throw is off limits for him. He just has a ridiculous arm.
 
johnhuskies95 said:
He's easily the most efficient quarterback of all time, and his stats at this point of his career are significantly better than anyone in the history of the league comparatively(outside of volume stats like yards and touchdowns).

But ignoring the stats, what makes him so good is that essentially no throw is off limits for him. He just has a ridiculous arm.
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Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.
 
upstater said:
Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.
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Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.
 
superjohn said:
Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.
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That makes sense to me.

It's the stats thing that doesn't make sense. I read the word "efficiency" earlier in your argument, which to me is code for QBR. QBR does lie.

These stats don't even include the second most popular way to score touchdowns in the NFL. Don't you think that's absurd?
 
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upstater said:
Stats lie in so many ways.

I can name 2 easily.

1. Since the NFL changed rules in 2006 passing stats have jumped for a grade many. So comparing QBs by stages in career can't be done easily.

2. The QBs stats like rating and QBR don't take into account a QB passing the ball downfield for 60 yards and the Rb scoring a 1 yard TD.
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The thing is he's so much better than the competition in so many of those stats. Even if you don't value quarterback rating(for whatever reason), his TD/INT ratio is enough to legitimately call him the GOAT if you wanted to.
 
superjohn said:
Aaron Rodgers is the best Qb in the game and when all is said and done I think he will be the best ever. It's clearly more of a passing league nowadays than it used to be and Rodgers is clearly the best at it. You can say stats lie all you want but they really don't, I tend to judge players off of watching them and when I watch Rodgers his brilliance becomes even more clear. Manning and Brady are obviously two of the best who have ever done it but there are simply things Rodgers does that those two can't.
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That's the other thing. If you just go by the eye test, I think a lot of people would objectively agree that Rodgers is the best.
 
johnhuskies95 said:
The thing is he's so much better than the competition in so many of those stats. Even if you don't value quarterback rating(for whatever reason), his TD/INT ratio is enough to legitimately call him the GOAT if you wanted to.
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If you go post rules change in 2006, both Brady and Rodgers are in the midst of their 7th season. Since the rules change, Brady is 236 Tds to 61 Ints. Rodgers is 215 TDs to 54 Ints. I would not call this so much better for Rodgers though it is slightly better.

Rodgers is at 25.1% Ints to TDs while Brady is at 25.8%. They are very similar.

But let me give you an example of why I don't like QB ratings.

In 2012, Rodgers had one of his best seasons ever. He was touted for the NFL MVP and finished a very close second to Adrian Petersen. This is what Rodgers did:

39 TDs, 8 INTs, 4,295 yards, 108 rating. Those are fantastic MVP stats.

But, what do they miss?

While the stats are better than Brady's line...

34 TDs, 8 INTs, 4,827 yards, 98.7 rating

...they put a heavy emphasis on TD passes and completely eliminate rushing TDs from the equation. The Patriots were not a running juggernaut that year, and yet they ran the ball for 26 TDs. They passed for 2.5x more yards than rushing yards. Brady himself had 4 of those rushing TDs.

The Packers had 7 rushing TDs.

To me, this is a stat that is totally ignored by QB-centric stats, and it misses a huge part of the game, which is how the QB helps his team get into position to score, and actual scoring on the ground.

I think this is part of the new mania for fantasy stats. People used to have a much more balanced vision of what a QB did for his team, but right now we're looking for stats that isolate scoring only when the QB passes the ball forward, and not everything he does to get his team into that position in the first place.
 
If I need to win one game with a bunch of average joe's (let alone stars) I'm taking Brady over anybody. I don't give a crap about stats.

And another thought on the Pats-Packers game in a couple weeks:

Like I said before I its strength on strength with the Green Bay WRs and New England's secondary. I think Revis, DMC and company can handle or at least limit the Packers passing game. Lacy may have a big day because the Pats will be in sub-packages all game. He'll have some running room. On the other side of the ball, I'm pretty confident the Packers D won't be able to stop New England's offense. No real answer for Gronk and the Packers struggle against the run.
 
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I Bleed Blue said:
If I need to win one game with a bunch of average joe's (let alone stars) I'm taking Brady over anybody. I don't give a crap about stats.

And another thought on the Pats-Packers game in a couple weeks:

Like I said before I its strength on strength with the Green Bay WRs and New England's secondary. I think Revis, DMC and company can handle or at least limit the Packers passing game. Lacy may have a big day because the Pats will be in sub-packages all game. He'll have some running room. On the other side of the ball, I'm pretty confident the Packers D won't be able to stop New England's offense. No real answer for Gronk and the Packers struggle against the run.
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Yeah no doubt. Pats best team ever! Who could handle them?:eek:
 
upstater said:
Is this a joke? Brady completed 10 straight passes to lead the Patriots back. In one huge drive, he did this:

1st and 10 at NWE 33Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 47Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Kevin Faulk (NWE) for 7 yards.
2nd and 3 at OAK 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 3 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 43Tom Brady (NWE) pass left side complete to Troy Brown (NWE) for 8 yards.
2nd and 2 at OAK 35Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 11 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 20Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass right side complete to David Patten (NWE) for 6 yards.
1st and 10 at OAK 10Tom Brady (NWE) pass across the middle complete to Jermaine Wiggins (NWE) for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at OAK 6Tom Brady (NWE) rushed up the middle for a 6 yard touchdown.139
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.1310

You think this describes sucking?

"Still, he finished the game with 32 completions in 52 attempts for 312 yards, 238 in the second half."

238 yards in one half in horrendous conditions?

Gannon, who was one of the top NFL QBs at the time, did this: "Gannon completed 17 of 31 passes but no receiver collected more than Rice's 48 yards."

As for the Colts 2003 game, Brady didn't need to do much. Patriots were up 15-0 at halftime and coasted. The Patriots didn't punt once that half.

Here was the opening drive:

1st and 10 at NWE 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 1 at NWE 44Larry Centers (NWE) rushed for no gain.
4th and 1 at NWE 44Tom Brady (NWE) rushed for 2 yards.
1st and 10 at NWE 46Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass incomplete
3rd and 5 at IND 49Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 14 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 35Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 4 yards.
2nd and 6 at IND 31Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 10 at IND 22Indy timeout; 10:30 remaining 1st quarter
1st and 10 at IND 22Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for 5 yards.
2nd and 5 at IND 17Antowain Smith (NWE) rushed for 1 yard.
3rd and 4 at IND 16Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to Deion Branch (NWE) for 9 yards.
1st and 7 at IND 7Tom Brady (NWE) pass complete to David Givens (NWE) for a 7 yard touchdown.06
Extra point by Adam Vinatieri (NWE) is good.07

The Patriots did what they needed to do, which was score and get on top quick. Take the lead to halftime, then take the air out of the pigskin by running, running, running it. You wanted Brady to sling the ball around in freezing conditions with a good lead? Why?
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Didn't catch the part where I said I was at the 2003 AFC Championship game, huh?

As for the Snow Bowl, 7-0 against at the half and 13-3 entering the 4th quarter. I watched that game too. Thanks for the stats but three drives does not a game make.
 
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Husky25 said:
Didn't catch the part where I said I was at the 2003 AFC Championship game, huh?

As for the Snow Bowl, 7-0 against at the half and 13-3 entering the 4th quarter. I watched that game too. Thanks for the stats but three drives does not a game make.
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That's the 2003 Championship game. What are you talking about?

You said he was bad in the Raiders game. He was not. And, in fact, 3 drives did make that game. It was played in horribly bad weather with steady high winds. He played well. He also played well in the 2003 AFCCG. I have no idea what else you are trying to say about 2003.
 
upstater said:
That's the 2003 Championship game. What are you talking about?

You said he was bad in the Raiders game. He was not. And, in fact, 3 drives did make that game. It was played in horribly bad weather with steady high winds. He played well. He also played well in the 2003 AFCCG. I have no idea what else you are trying to say about 2003.
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I didn't need the play run down for the '03 game, I was there...And I didn't say he was bad. I said he "was merely serviceable, by Brady standards...Defense won that game."

I don't base the quality of play a game on stats alone. The eye test is huge for me. That said, maybe "suck" is too strong of a word for the Snow Bowl, but he did not play the entire at the same level he played the 4th quarter. He couldn't sustain a drive in the first half to save his life and three drives at the end of the game made it an exciting contest (and of course the tuck rule), but there were about a dozen other drives where Brady did his team no favors.

I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied (Everyone and there brother was expecting Raider ball), Brady is not talked about with such reverence that had become...and I say this as a Brady Fan.
 
Husky25 said:
I didn't need the play run down for the '03 game, I was there...And I didn't say he was bad. I said he "was merely serviceable, by Brady standards...Defense won that game."

I don't base the quality of play a game on stats alone. The eye test is huge for me. That said, maybe "suck" is too strong of a word for the Snow Bowl, but he did not play the entire at the same level he played the 4th quarter. He couldn't sustain a drive in the first half to save his life and three drives at the end of the game made it an exciting contest (and of course the tuck rule), but there were about a dozen other drives where Brady did his team no favors.

I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied (Everyone and there brother was expecting Raider ball), Brady is not talked about with such reverence that had become...and I say this as a Brady Fan.
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Look at Gannon. Pro Bowler. In those conditions, you take what you can get. 300+ yards passing is noting to sneeze at.

How was the tuck rule misapplied? It was applied down to the letter. As for the tuck rule being little known, it was not that way for Patriots fans. Without the application of the tuck rule that season, the Patriots don't even play the Raiders in the playoffs. Since the Patriots lost a game when the tuck rule was applied that year.
 
upstater said:
Look at Gannon. Pro Bowler. In those conditions, you take what you can get. 300+ yards passing is noting to sneeze at.

How was the tuck rule misapplied? It was applied down to the letter. As for the tuck rule being little known, it was not that way for Patriots fans. Without the application of the tuck rule that season, the Patriots don't even play the Raiders in the playoffs. Since the Patriots lost a game when the tuck rule was applied that year.
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Jeezsus!!!!

The order is 1) read, 2) comprehend, 3) formulate response, 4) reply

Your process seems to be: 1) skim, 2) feign outrage, 3) angrily reply. Those middle two steps are fairly important.

After this, I'm not going to re-quote myself back to you. I SAID: "I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied..."

I'm aware it was applied correctly. Hence my phrasing. There is really no point in debating this topic with you if you're just going to argue against what I didn't say (or write, as the case may be). I look forward to discussing other subjects with you, Upstater, but this one has been put to bed as far as I'm concerned. The Patriots and Brady are important to me because they are my local team and the team to which I have an unhealthy allegiance since childhood is gawdawful. Bob Kraft has kept me football-sane since 1994. However, that doesn't mean I can't be critical.
 
Husky25 said:
Jeezsus!!!!

The order is 1) read, 2) comprehend, 3) formulate response, 4) reply

Your process seems to be: 1) skim, 2) feign outrage, 3) angrily reply. Those middle two steps are fairly important.

After this, I'm not going to re-quote myself back to you. I SAID: "I'm pretty sure that had the little known tuck rule been misapplied..."

I'm aware it was applied correctly. Hence my phrasing. There is really no point in debating this topic with you if you're just going to argue against what I didn't say (or write, as the case may be). I look forward to discussing other subjects with you, Upstater, but this one has been put to bed as far as I'm concerned. The Patriots and Brady are important to me because they are my local team and the team to which I have an unhealthy allegiance since childhood is gawdawful. Bob Kraft has kept me football-sane since 1994. However, that doesn't mean I can't be critical.
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I'll remind myself next time that you speak in triple negatives.
 
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upstater said:
I'll remind myself next time that you speak in triple negatives.
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The irony being that there is barely a single negative, let alone three. C'est la vie.
 
To recap:

Patriots held the highest scoring offense to their lowest point total of the year last week.

Patriots scored the most points this season against the best ppg defense in the league this week.

Next week will be fun.
 
jleves said:
I think we're watching the end of an era. They are just not very good . . . they will not go anywhere. They really need to start revamping the team if they want to compete in the future. But they are not what they once were.
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BUMPING this thread, because, both in terms of wrongness and timing, this may go down as the worst prediction since Dewey/Truman.
 
jleves said:
I think we're watching the end of an era. They are just not very good - getting crushed right now by a 1-2 team. They will probably make the playoffs because they play in the weakest conference in football, but they will not go anywhere. Brady is 37 and last I checked, not getting any younger.
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Cheeky said:
BUMPING this thread, because, both in terms of wrongness and timing, this may go down as the worst prediction since Dewey/Truman.
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I think I already addressed this:
jleves said:
I have to admit - I was premature on my original post. It really looked bad after that game. I should know better than to underestimate what Belichick can do with any given roster. If you're starting a new team and can have any QB or head coach, you take Belicheck and let him work. QBs can get hurt, get old quickly, or go through bad spells. Genius on the sidelines doesn't evaporate easily.
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jleves said:
I think I already addressed this:
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Love you like a brother, but you're going to have to own this one all the way to February, at least! If the Pats beat GB in GB in 6 days, they are going to be the SB favorites. :p
 
jleves said:
I think I already addressed this:
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Coaches have a shelf-life too though.

When you think about it, the great ones, outside of say Shula, only last as long as the great QBs. Brady came into the league in 2000. If he does what he says and plays at least another 3 years, that takes him to 2018. 18 years. That's a lot.

If you made the choice 3 years ago between Belichick and Andrew Luck, do you take Belichick? I think a good argument can be made that you take Luck because Luck is going to last longer than Belichick.
 
upstater said:
Coaches have a shelf-life too though.

When you think about it, the great ones, outside of say Shula, only last as long as the great QBs. Brady came into the league in 2000. If he does what he says and plays at least another 3 years, that takes him to 2018. 18 years. That's a lot.

If you made the choice 3 years ago between Belichick and Andrew Luck, do you take Belichick? I think a good argument can be made that you take Luck because Luck is going to last longer than Belichick.
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First, let me say I'm an Arizona Cardinal fan - but in the AFC, the Patriots would be one of my favorite teams.

Luck or Belichick, I take Belichick. Three years ago he was 59 looking like he has a ton of longevity. Even today at 62, he has at least 8 more years. And he is a freakin genius. I wouldn't be a bit surprised that he could be diagnosed with aspergers. If you spilled toothpicks on the floor, he would know how many there were. If you spilled players on a field, he could arrange them in the most advantages order in seconds.

Brady is a witch, no doubt, but Belichick would find another witch or reinvent the team around a new non-witch to be highly competitive.

I'm old enough to have watched Shula, Landry, Walsh, Madden and Parcells all coach. Belichick is better than them all in my opinion.
 
Hate Belichick as a person but I agree. If not better than all of them, he's as good as all and better than most! Heck he made Tuna what he was with the Giants with his defenses!
 
I love BB. Mostly I love the way he runs the team. He actually made me a football fan first, over baseball. Primarily because of his philosophy in stocking the team. Leave egos at the door. Let's bring as many solid players in as we can, and no, you're not going to swallow our salary cap unless your talent is otherwordly (Revis).

All that being said, I think that at the end of the day, it's Brady playing a system that was instituted by Charlie Weis.
 
You're not implying that Brady is a system QB are you?

Brady's most productive individual seasons were post-Weist and Weist's system has not worked anywhere but New England...with Brady.
 
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