OT - NBA off-season thread

[gtcam]

GORDON HAYWARD to the Celts!!!!!
4 yrs contract

 

[tcf15]

 

[Walker11]

Hot take alert.

Hayward is a little overrated and this deal does absolutely nothing to move the needle. Nice player and all, but the 2nd best team in the East is now...the 2nd best team in the East.

I think the Celtics biggest need is a 1st tier bucket-getter (whose isn't?) who can make the team less subjected to the randomness of 30 3PA games. IT got it done in the regular season but he was swallowed up in some of the playoff games, and some of this has to do with his injury, and some because of his height. If you watched the Jazz Clippers games, you would see Utah running their offense through Johnson in many of the most crucial possessions. Very good player, no brainer move for the C's front office, just doesn't do much for me.

 

[Dove]

I laugh kinda because I have never heard of this guy. Shows how I have fallen off the NBA fan grid.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Hayward better like Larry Bird comparisons, because there will be a lot of them.

 

[4in16]

Hayward better like Larry Bird comparisons, because there will be a lot of them.

lol

 

[Robertelamin]

I laugh kinda because I have never heard of this guy. Shows how I have fallen off the NBA fan grid.

You don't remember him from Butler? He was their best player and was an inch or two away on a half court shot from beating Duke and winning the national championship in 2010.

 

[navery12]

Hot take alert.

Hayward is a little overrated and this deal does absolutely nothing to move the needle. Nice player and all, but the 2nd best team in the East is now...the 2nd best team in the East.

I think the Celtics biggest need is a 1st tier bucket-getter (whose isn't?) who can make the team less subjected to the randomness of 30 3PA games. IT got it done in the regular season but he was swallowed up in some of the playoff games, and some of this has to do with his injury, and some because of his height. If you watched the Jazz Clippers games, you would see Utah running their offense through Johnson in many of the most crucial possessions. Very good player, no brainer move for the C's front office, just doesn't do much for me.

I'm not a Celtics fan but I like this move a lot for them. Obviously it may not happen immediately, but in terms of that scoring guy you want, I think that's gonna be Tatum. For me he was the clear #3 guy for me in this draft, and I think he'll be able to step in and score right away in the NBA. I think having the ability to have another guy who you can give the ball to and score will be big for them.

I agree it doesn't move them past the Cavs but they also didn't mortgage any future assets so it improves their team now and they're still perfectly set up to use those picks to be the top of the East for the post LeBron era

 

[Storrs South]

 

[awfuldan]

Love seeing DHam put up good numbers, just wish he could be more efficient. He took 15 shots and had 5 turnovers in this game

 

[champs99and04]

Hot take alert.

Hayward is a little overrated and this deal does absolutely nothing to move the needle. Nice player and all, but the 2nd best team in the East is now...the 2nd best team in the East.

I think the Celtics biggest need is a 1st tier bucket-getter (whose isn't?) who can make the team less subjected to the randomness of 30 3PA games. IT got it done in the regular season but he was swallowed up in some of the playoff games, and some of this has to do with his injury, and some because of his height. If you watched the Jazz Clippers games, you would see Utah running their offense through Johnson in many of the most crucial possessions. Very good player, no brainer move for the C's front office, just doesn't do much for me.

Were they the second best team in the East? I would have had Toronto ahead of them, and honestly, I think coaching was the only thing separating them from a team like the Hornets (and that's a testament to Brad more than it is a dig at Clifford) with Dwight now in the fold.

Now I think they're definitively the second best team in the East (Washington and Milwaukee also had arguments) and closer to Cleveland's zip code. They didn't give up any of their "assets" to acquire him, either.

But it's still a weird team. I would have traded Isaiah Thomas yesterday, and Horford is set to make a lot of money over the next three seasons for a player who was limited athletically at his peak (good player, got exposed by Cleveland) and unlikely to be particularly useful providing resistance to LeBron. Crowder was a lame duck before they signed Hayward. Hell, he was a lame duck before they drafted Tatum. That's going to be all sorts of confusing to figure out at the wing - it's great to hear about how beneficial it is for young players to be on a good team, but at some point they need to actually play. There's a legitimate logjam there now.

Avery Bradley is the one guy on that roster I really, really like. If I were the Celtics, I'd be negotiating like hell with him right now to try to extend him at less than the max. He's good enough now to not compromise your efforts to build a contender and young enough still that he'd jive with the long-term plan of peaking post-LeBron. Thomas and Hortford don't fit so neatly into those plans.

 

[Walker11]

Were they the second best team in the East? I would have had Toronto ahead of them, and honestly, I think coaching was the only thing separating them from a team like the Hornets (and that's a testament to Brad more than it is a dig at Clifford) with Dwight now in the fold.

Yes. Coaching is a factor but most would have had them solidly second. This was the 1st seed last year and they did make the ECF. This move gives the C's breathing room ahead of Washington and Toronto right now. Toronto lost Patterson and Tucker, nice role forwards, and Washington has stayed the same. They are now solidly behind Boston, unless Derozan or Wall make the leap to superstardom (which wouldn't actually shock me - at one time, Kawhi and Russ and Harden were viewed on this tier), or a youngster like Powell or Oubre or Porter really develop.

The move makes sense. Hayward is a great fit. But if the C's end up as champion contenders, their best player is not on this roster.

The timeline should work out nicely with Horford. The 2 picks in next years class give them a nice shot at a premier big prospect like Ayton/Bamba/Porter.

Ainge must be accumulating wings as trade chips. I think this is the Morey approach. A legit superstar will enter the trade market and no team will be more prepared. A guy who moves the needle at the highest level, not a Butler or George type. The timing will be a matter of luck and randomness - wait too long and watch the shine wear off Brown and Tatum.

Agree on Bradley. 26 years old and continually improving. I would love to see him on the 76ers, actually.

 

[bballgrda]

Hot take alert.

Hayward is a little overrated and this deal does absolutely nothing to move the needle. Nice player and all, but the 2nd best team in the East is now...the 2nd best team in the East.

I think the Celtics biggest need is a 1st tier bucket-getter (whose isn't?) who can make the team less subjected to the randomness of 30 3PA games. IT got it done in the regular season but he was swallowed up in some of the playoff games, and some of this has to do with his injury, and some because of his height. If you watched the Jazz Clippers games, you would see Utah running their offense through Johnson in many of the most crucial possessions. Very good player, no brainer move for the C's front office, just doesn't do much for me.

I agree in the sense that they can't do better than a 1 seed and that they will still be heavy underdogs against Cleveland.

Where this move could really pay off is 2 years down the line.

 

[Dogdeacon]

Maybe the C's are waiting building assets to acquire a super-duper-star, but probably not or at minimum a parallel strategy of trying to find that guy in the draft while accumulating a very competitive team. Maybe Isaiah, Horford, Hayward and Tatum/Brown are all stars and you can contend for a championship particularly with uptempo approach, ball movement and 3's. But the list of guys significantly better than any of those is really short; Durant, LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook. Maybe Townes & Anthony Davis & Porzingis although not proven winners so not there yet. You can't have a binary strategy solely dependent on acquiring one of those top players. What the Celtics have is a winning system and coach and now enough assets to legitimately contend. If either Tatum or Brown (very unlikely I know, but still possible) or 1 of the 2 first rounders next year becomes a top-15 type player they will have enough to contend for a title. Opening 2018 Championship odds Celtics 20-1, Cavs 3-1 NOW as of July 5, Celtics 10-1, Cavs 3-2.

 

[Matt1010]

Celtics need to throw everything at the Pelicans for Davis, if and when they say no I'd offer something like Crowder/Smart/Clippers Pick/Memphis Pick for Marc Gasol.

 

[bballgrda]

Celtics need to throw everything at the Pelicans for Davis, if and when they say no I'd offer something like Crowder/Smart/Clippers Pick/Memphis Pick for Marc Gasol.

Don't see them giving up all of that for an older player. Unless you meant some combination

Edit: was originally thinking it was the nets pick not clippers pick when I read this post. They will most likely have to move Smart anyways to get Hayward. Crowder is redundant. That Memphis pick could end up being top 10 quite easily, but I actually do like this trade for both teams.

 

[bballgrda]

Maybe the C's are waiting building assets to acquire a super-duper-star, but probably not or at minimum a parallel strategy of trying to find that guy in the draft while accumulating a very competitive team. Maybe Isaiah, Horford, Hayward and Tatum/Brown are all stars and you can contend for a championship particularly with uptempo approach, ball movement and 3's. But the list of guys significantly better than any of those is really short; Durant, LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook. Maybe Townes & Anthony Davis & Porzingis although not proven winners so not there yet. You can't have a binary strategy solely dependent on acquiring one of those top players. What the Celtics have is a winning system and coach and now enough assets to legitimately contend. If either Tatum or Brown (very unlikely I know, but still possible) or 1 of the 2 first rounders next year becomes a top-15 type player they will have enough to contend for a title. Opening 2018 Championship odds Celtics 20-1, Cavs 3-1 NOW as of July 5, Celtics 10-1, Cavs 3-2.

It's not a question if you can or can't have the "binary strategy" of acquiring a superstar. If your goal is to win that is the only strategy.

Also there is no maybe concerning Davis in that tier. Towns is as close a sure thing as exists.

 

[nomar]

Hayward better like Larry Bird comparisons, because there will be a lot of them.

Not from real fans.

I post on a Celtics message board and I literally have not seen a single person -- and believe me, there are some nitwits who post there -- dare to make that comparison.

 

[bballgrda]

Not from real fans.

I post on a Celtics message board and I literally have not seen a single person -- and believe me, there are some nitwits who post there -- dare to make that comparison.

It's no surprise that was Nelson's only post in this thread

 

[HuskyHawk]

Maybe the C's are waiting building assets to acquire a super-duper-star, but probably not or at minimum a parallel strategy of trying to find that guy in the draft while accumulating a very competitive team. Maybe Isaiah, Horford, Hayward and Tatum/Brown are all stars and you can contend for a championship particularly with uptempo approach, ball movement and 3's. But the list of guys significantly better than any of those is really short; Durant, LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook. Maybe Townes & Anthony Davis & Porzingis although not proven winners so not there yet. You can't have a binary strategy solely dependent on acquiring one of those top players. What the Celtics have is a winning system and coach and now enough assets to legitimately contend. If either Tatum or Brown (very unlikely I know, but still possible) or 1 of the 2 first rounders next year becomes a top-15 type player they will have enough to contend for a title. Opening 2018 Championship odds Celtics 20-1, Cavs 3-1 NOW as of July 5, Celtics 10-1, Cavs 3-2.

I think people are misjudging what Danny is doing here. Look at those names. Aside from Durant (who still went #2), Lebron and maybe Davis, did anyone expect them to be stars when drafted? Did anything see Steph Curry becoming what he did? It's a crapshoot. The only way to get a big star like that is to (a) draft one or (b) be good enough that one wants to play for you. That's it.

So the Celtics are now "good enough", plus, Ainge has more lottery tickets to find a star than anybody else. Next year there is a very deep big man draft, and he has another shot. Tatum may be a star, who knows? A lot of people don't like Brown's game, but he's smart, off the charts athletic and very young. People forget that Avery couldn't shoot as a rookie either. He has also shown he can annoy Lebron as a defender. Meanwhile Hayward is a very good scorer who will compliment Avery to torch teams that double IT. Rim defense and rebounding are the weak spots, and we can only hope Zizic is part of the answer there.

 

[Dogdeacon]

It's not a question if you can or can't have the "binary strategy" of acquiring a superstar. If your goal is to win that is the only strategy.

Also there is no maybe concerning Davis in that tier. Towns is as close a sure thing as exists.

I'm saying its foolish to have a strategy binary between acquiring a superstar and not winning. That's why (1) the draft picks, meaning draft & try to get lucky and (2) if not acquire - (3 is fail/stay in contention & wait) hence Celtics strategy isn't binary and totally dependent on trading for a superstar (like Houston's is/was).

Its been awhile (Pistons early this century qualify as absolutely no superstar), but a top-5 player isn't the only way to win and arguably neither the Spurs of 14 (Kawhi wasn't there yet) or Warriors of 2015 (Curry definitely wasn't that in the playoffs and is still mostly a one-way player) prove it can be done with superior team concept.

You are probably right on categorizing Davis, but I'm less sure that he can be the #1 guy on a championship team he needs lots of playoff reps to get there.

 

[bballgrda]

I'm saying its foolish to have a strategy binary between acquiring a superstar and not winning. That's why (1) the draft picks, meaning draft & try to get lucky and (2) if not acquire - (3 is fail/stay in contention & wait) hence Celtics strategy isn't binary and totally dependent on trading for a superstar (like Houston's is/was).

Its been awhile (Pistons early this century qualify as absolutely no superstar), but a top-5 player isn't the only way to win and arguably neither the Spurs of 14 (Kawhi wasn't there yet) or Warriors of 2015 (Curry definitely wasn't that in the playoffs and is still mostly a one-way player) prove it can be done with superior team concept.

You are probably right on categorizing Davis, but I'm less sure that he can be the #1 guy on a championship team he needs lots of playoff reps to get there.

Agreed on everything in first paragraph.

The Pistons are the obvious exception to the rule, because they're really the only example. Curry was no question top 5 player in 2015 and should have been the fMVP, if you aren't going to give it to LeBron. 2014 Spurs had 4 HoF bound players.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I think people are misjudging what Danny is doing here. Look at those names. Aside from Durant (who still went #2), Lebron and maybe Davis, did anyone expect them to be stars when drafted? Did anything see Steph Curry becoming what he did? It's a crapshoot. The only way to get a big star like that is to (a) draft one or (b) be good enough that one wants to play for you. That's it.

So the Celtics are now "good enough", plus, Ainge has more lottery tickets to find a star than anybody else. Next year there is a very deep big man draft, and he has another shot. Tatum may be a star, who knows? A lot of people don't like Brown's game, but he's smart, off the charts athletic and very young. People forget that Avery couldn't shoot as a rookie either. He has also shown he can annoy Lebron as a defender. Meanwhile Hayward is a very good scorer who will compliment Avery to torch teams that double IT. Rim defense and rebounding are the weak spots, and we can only hope Zizic is part of the answer there.

That's right, people forget that it is cumulative and like attracting KG, the better the Celtics get the more opportunities to further improve. Hayward might not have come to last year's team. Taking out Warriors and Cavs the Celtics are now as good as anyone else in the NBA and via next year's draft (last positional need is a big man) the Celtics will stay that way past LeBron's prime. If as HHawks says someone else emerges as a superstar they vault into Warriors/Cavs territory with multiple superstars. The fact that the Celtics have done that at 100M in salaries vs 125-135 for other top teams (Warriors, Raptors, Spurs, Cavs) and more high draft picks is very promising.

Or look at it this way, everyone knew it'd be GSW v Cavs in the 2017 finals and the entire playoffs were anti-climactic. Next season conference finals of Houston vs GSW and Cavs v Celtics is much more compelling.

 

[NielsisGood]

Hot take alert.

Hayward is a little overrated and this deal does absolutely nothing to move the needle. Nice player and all, but the 2nd best team in the East is now...the 2nd best team in the East.

I think the Celtics biggest need is a 1st tier bucket-getter (whose isn't?) who can make the team less subjected to the randomness of 30 3PA games. IT got it done in the regular season but he was swallowed up in some of the playoff games, and some of this has to do with his injury, and some because of his height. If you watched the Jazz Clippers games, you would see Utah running their offense through Johnson in many of the most crucial possessions. Very good player, no brainer move for the C's front office, just doesn't do much for me.

Not really a hot take even. Hayward became overrated in a hurry and signing him does nothing other than locking the Celts into being the 4th-6th best team in the league for the next few years (unless there's a Davis trade coming, which there isn't).

 

[NielsisGood]

Maybe the C's are waiting building assets to acquire a super-duper-star, but probably not or at minimum a parallel strategy of trying to find that guy in the draft while accumulating a very competitive team. Maybe Isaiah, Horford, Hayward and Tatum/Brown are all stars and you can contend for a championship particularly with uptempo approach, ball movement and 3's. But the list of guys significantly better than any of those is really short; Durant, LeBron, Giannis, Kawhi, Harden, Westbrook. Maybe Townes & Anthony Davis & Porzingis although not proven winners so not there yet. You can't have a binary strategy solely dependent on acquiring one of those top players. What the Celtics have is a winning system and coach and now enough assets to legitimately contend. If either Tatum or Brown (very unlikely I know, but still possible) or 1 of the 2 first rounders next year becomes a top-15 type player they will have enough to contend for a title. Opening 2018 Championship odds Celtics 20-1, Cavs 3-1 NOW as of July 5, Celtics 10-1, Cavs 3-2.

You need an all time stud to win a title though. Look at every single NBA champion besides the 04 Pistons and there's at least 1 inner circle, top 20-25 player of all time on those teams.