OT: Derek Jeter

[boog204]

Jeter was a good player an almost certain 1st ballot HoFer, but lets not overstate it. There are plenty of First Ballot HoFer's that don't transcend sports. Let me play Devil's advocate. If he did transcend sports, tell me how he transcended baseball first.

First Big Body Shortstop? Nope. Cal Ripken beat him by over a dozen years; A-Rod by at least one.
Best player in the league? Nope, not a single MVP award. Came in the top 3 a few years, but A-Rod has 3 MVPs and Ripken has 2.
Best player at his position? Arguable, which means there are just as (if not more) viable arguments against. A-Rod was the best SS in the league until 2004 and for a while Jeter wasn't even considered the best SS on his own team. Garciaparra was arguably a better all around SS through 2003.
He was steady and he played 19 years (17 can be considered full). IF you disregard the Worlds Series titles and NY, Jeter would be a stat accumulator. Alas the pressure of doing it in the Big Apple does count for something.

In my opinion a player has to make the Mt. Rushmore in to be considered transcendent. Jeter doesn't even make it for his own team (Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio). Berra & Whitey have a seat at the table before him as well.

By the way Transcendent Baseball players = Ruth, Cobb, Robinson, and Gibson
Transcendent Basketball players = Bird, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic
Transcendent Football players = Montana, LT, Brown, and Rice
Transcendent Football players = Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Richard.

I may have missed the "transcendent" statement. Obviously, he's not any of those guys. Also, using the Yankees for your Mt. Rushmore argument is a bit dumb, imo. One could argue that 3 of the 5 greatest players of all time are on the Yanks (Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio) and that's not including guys like Mantle and Berra. If Jeter is a top 10 Yankee it speaks volumes to how great he was. Other than Mays, Aaron, Williams and I'm sure someone I'm forgetting about, who else can even approach the Yankees Mount Rushmore?

For the MVP argument, ARod won 3 MVPs on roids. If we are counting the roids guys, then ARod is the greatest SS of all time and it's not even close; even with half of his career played there. If we're not, I think we could make the argument that Jeter is the best modern shortstop of all time. Jeter should have been the MVP in 06 and finished behind two roids guys (Nomar and Juan Gonzalez) in 98.

I disagree on the stat accumulator idea b/c he's a career 312 hitter with a 828ops. His career has been fairly consistent throughout. This isn't Biggio who was a career 280 and hung around just to get 3000 hits. Jeter led the league in hits and hit 316 at 38 years old.

He was a great player. Not a complimentary player or an accumulator. Pedro Martinez said during the WS last year that Jeter was the guy he didn't want to face in a big spot. That's legit from the most dominant pitcher of his era.

 

[Cheddie]

Turning your final season into a victory lap is lame. Play or don't. Announce your retirement when you're actually retiring.

Easy to say when you're not being asked multiple times a day about how much longer you're going to play (as he was last year). If you know you're going, do you mislead the beat writers?

 

[Husky25]

... I just want to touch on what he means to society. He's a truly transcendent player, a label that only belongs to a handful of athletes; MJ, Babe Ruth, Peyton Manning, etc. ...

I may have missed the "transcendent" statement. Obviously, he's not any of those guys. Also, using the Yankees for your Mt. Rushmore argument is a bit dumb, imo. One could argue that 3 of the 5 greatest players of all time are on the Yanks (Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio) and that's not including guys like Mantle and Berra. If Jeter is a top 10 Yankee it speaks volumes to how great he was. Other than Mays, Aaron, Williams and I'm sure someone I'm forgetting about, who else can even approach the Yankees Mount Rushmore?

For the MVP argument, ARod won 3 MVPs on roids. If we are counting the roids guys, then ARod is the greatest SS of all time and it's not even close; even with half of his career played there. If we're not, I think we could make the argument that Jeter is the best modern shortstop of all time. Jeter should have been the MVP in 06 and finished behind two roids guys (Nomar and Juan Gonzalez) in 98.

I disagree on the stat accumulator idea b/c he's a career 312 hitter with a 828ops. His career has been fairly consistent throughout. This isn't Biggio who was a career 280 and hung around just to get 3000 hits. Jeter led the league in hits and hit 316 at 38 years old.

He was a great player. Not a complimentary player or an accumulator. Pedro Martinez said during the WS last year that Jeter was the guy he didn't want to face in a big spot. That's legit from the most dominant pitcher of his era.

You must have missed where I say Jeter is most likely a 1st Ballot HoFer...OTOH, I absolutely think there is a fair amount of overreaction in this thread.

Why should Jeter have won the MVP in 2006? He certainly was not robbed. No other NYY was in the top 5 so he didn't split the vote. Morneau had 72 extra base hits (34 HRs and 1 3B), 130 RBI, and a .934 OPS for a playoff team, where he batted .417.

Regarding the MLB Mt Rushmore, Jeter is behind my MLB Mt. Rushmore, The Yankee Mt. Rushmore AND all those guys you mentioned, plus some others probably like Koufax and Ryan. One truly cannot be transcendent if they are behind all those guys. He didn't change the game.

No one knows for sure who is 100% clean. I would not be surprised about anyone. Do you know for a fact that Jeter never had a "green" cup of coffee? And if you are talking about the best modern SS. Cal Ripken Jr. says hi and Barry Larkin throws his name into the Goblet of Fire as well.

 

[The Viking]

Yeah... That's just the little kid in me talking. But he really does mean a lot to me and every other Yankee fan that saw this model of excellence play growing up. I'm sure, for you Sox fans, that anyone who saw Ted Williams growing up would say similar things. You know, besides the winning. And the class.

I'll grant you that Ted Williams was grumpy and Jeter was cool as a cucumber. But let's keep in mind that Mr. Williams was a fighter pilot for 5 years of his baseball career. He's probably allowed to be grumpy.

Let's also keep in mind that if he played in the old Yankee Stadium half of his games and if he didn't give up 5 seasons to fight overseas, he'd probably finish his career with 750+ HR's and 10 rings.

 

[boog204]

You must have missed where I say Jeter is most likely a 1st Ballot HoFer...OTOH, I absolutely think there is a fair amount of overreaction in this thread.

Why should Jeter have won the MVP in 2006? He certainly was not robbed. No other NYY was in the top 5 so he didn't split the vote. Morneau had 72 extra base hits (34 HRs and 1 3B), 130 RBI, and a .934 OPS for a playoff team, where he batted .417.

Regarding the MLB Mt Rushmore, Jeter is behind my MLB Mt. Rushmore, The Yankee Mt. Rushmore AND all those guys you mentioned, plus some others probably like Koufax and Ryan. One truly cannot be transcendent if they are behind all those guys. He didn't change the game.

No one knows for sure who is 100% clean. I would not be surprised about anyone. Do you know for a fact that Jeter never had a "green" cup of coffee? And if you are talking about the best modern SS. Cal Ripken Jr. says hi and Barry Larkin throws his name into the Goblet of Fire as well.

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

I don't think any rational fan is justifying Jeter as one of the greatest players of all time. He is a no doubt first ballot HOFer and I do think you could make the very strong argument that he's one of the top 3 shortstops ever.

 

[boog204]

I'll grant you that Ted Williams was grumpy and Jeter was cool as a cucumber. But let's keep in mind that Mr. Williams was a fighter pilot for 5 years of his baseball career. He's probably allowed to be grumpy.

Let's also keep in mind that if he played in the old Yankee Stadium half of his games and if he didn't give up 5 seasons to fight overseas, he'd probably finish his career with 750+ HR's and 10 rings.

Yeah, Ted Williams was an American hero before you even consider his baseball greatness. Dude could have been as grumpy as he wanted. John Wayne modeled his shtick after Ted Williams. 'Nuff said.

 

[intlzncster]

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

There'd be "shock" in the media, but I don't think most fans would be too surprised. I wouldn't. And that's got nothing to do with Jeter, it's just what this era of players has brought on themselves. Everybody is up for debate. Personally, I don't think players were all that clean over the preceding years, it's just that cheating became much more effective in recent years.

 

[Husky25]

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

I don't think any rational fan is justifying Jeter as one of the greatest players of all time. He is a no doubt first ballot HOFer and I do think you could make the very strong argument that he's one of the top 3 shortstops ever.

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

Also I didn't say steroids. I said Green, as in greenies; Amphetamines, which were rampant from the 60's, onward.

 

[mauconnfan]

He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.

You're a fn dope……always were but now you're HUGE ….DOPE!

 

[mauconnfan]

As incredible of an offensive-force as he was, his contribution to pointing out how much of a joke the gold glove award is was equally as important. But in all seriousness, heck of a player.

Yeah you should know that…..the midget ahead of Cano was right there with the worst!!! LOL

 

[boog204]

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

Also I didn't say steroids. I said Green, as in greenies; Amphetamines, which were rampant from the 60's, onward.

Dude has 3500 hits and a 312 average. He's a hall of famer regardless of position.

 

[boog204]

There'd be "shock" in the media, but I don't think most fans would be too surprised. I wouldn't. And that's got nothing to do with Jeter, it's just what this era of players has brought on themselves. Everybody is up for debate. Personally, I don't think players were all that clean over the preceding years, it's just that cheating became much more effective in recent years.

Jeter, Mo, Pedroia are the only three I can think of that would legitimately shock me and I think most fans would echo that sentiment. Everyone else, not so much...

 

[2north]

Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.

By this absolutely ridiculous argument Pedroia is less than complimentary. His 162 averages are .302 BA, 16HR, 79 RBI through 8 years. And those will only go down as he gets older.

 

[Husky25]

Relax, Boog!! You're gonna hurt yourself. . At the end of the day, its just conversation. Jeter is a HoFer, probably on the 1st ballot. I am a Red Sox Fan and really like how Pedroia plays, but he doesn't know me or give a half a hoot about me. So for me to care so much these guys, at my age, does not make much sense anymore.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Yeah you should know that…..the midget ahead of Cano was right there with the worst!!! LOL

I have no idea what you mean

 

[mauconnfan]

I have no idea what you mean

Neither did I….LOL……happy hour started with a customer at 2 and ended just in time for the Husky game!

Think it had to do with you making fun of Jeter's GG and Pedroia's GG win over Cano this year…….because Cano was the better fielder and deserved it but the "people" like Pedey just like they liked Jeter back then! But don't hold me to it……...

 

[Husky25]

Neither did I….LOL……happy hour started with a customer at 2 and ended just in time for the Husky game!

Think it had to do with you making fun of Jeter's GG and Pedroia's GG win over Cano this year…….because Cano was the better fielder and deserved it but the "people" like Pedey just like they liked Jeter back then! But don't hold me to it……...

C'mon, Mau. Pedey had a crazy good year and "deserved" it just as much; more, considering the numbers. In any other year, Cano gets it, no doubt.

What's the difference? Cano is not a Yankee why do you cae so much?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Neither did I….LOL……happy hour started with a customer at 2 and ended just in time for the Husky game!

Think it had to do with you making fun of Jeter's GG and Pedroia's GG win over Cano this year…….because Cano was the better fielder and deserved it but the "people" like Pedey just like they liked Jeter back then! But don't hold me to it……...

Well if it makes you feel better, I'm not a Red Sox fan, but I do understand the reasoning now haha. Though I will say, the advanced defensive metrics definitely don't agree with cano over pedroia

 

[David 76]

Haters will be haters.
There once was 3 amazing great young shortstops. A-Rod was the "best". Boston fans thought Nomar was 2nd best. In hindsight it is clear who had the best, legitimate career.
As far as his defense, I will miss him going deep to the third base side and making that jump-throw to first.I will never forget the dive into foul territory against the Sox , the Jeter/Cano/Tex double play combo or (one of the greatest defensive plays) the "flip" against the As that turned that playoff around.
Every free agent who came to NY ultimately said something to the effect of " I knew Jeter was good, I didn't realize he was this good".

 

[60'sfan]

Haters will be haters.
There once was 3 amazing great young shortstops. A-Rod was the "best". Boston fans thought Nomar was 2nd best. In hindsight it is clear who had the best, legitimate career.
As far as his defense, I will miss him going deep to the third base side and making that jump-throw to first.I will never forget the dive into foul territory against the Sox , the Jeter/Cano/Tex double play combo or (one of the greatest defensive plays) the "flip" against the As that turned that playoff around.
Every free agent who came to NY ultimately said something to the effect of " I knew Jeter was good, I didn't realize he was this good".

Good post. I agree with what you said. Sometime this year, Derek Jeter will pass Luis Aparicio for second place in games played at short stop. Only Omar Vizquel will have more but not by much. Shortstop is a skill position so to play that many games at that position is significant. The list of players behind him is impressive. Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, Luke Appling to name a few. I am a Red Sox fan and I would vote him into the Hall in a NY minute. The thing that I remember the most about him as a player was that he seemingly never killed a rally. He always would work a walk or punch one into right field. Still, I hate to see him go.

 

[David 76]

It will also be the end of the era of the core 4. I always see it as 5 because Bernie came up just before them (and people have forgotten how good he was). But not a bad class from the farm system of a team known to be built on free agents. Bernie, Jorge, Andy, Mo and Derek. Two first-round HOFers and 3 guys that will fall a little short.

 

[Excalibur]

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

Just stop. Do I think that Yankee fans overrate the guy? Sure. But find me a guy with 3000 hits at over .310 for his career who isn't in the Hall, regardless of position.

 

[Husky25]

Just stop. Do I think that Yankee fans overrate the guy? Sure. But find me a guy with 3000 hits at over .310 for his career who isn't in the Hall, regardless of position.

Given only those criteria? Raphael Palmeiro and Pete Rose.

You're creating a strawman argument. Show me where I said Derek Jeter is not going in the Hall of Fame? I must have missed it.

My comment was about his "transcendence" or lack thereof. This is not a sad day. I was at Todd Helton Appreciation Day vs. the Red Sox last year. They flashed a whole bunch of teammates, coaches, and friends on their video board between innings, but I believe it was Clint Hurdle who quoted a better man than myself (Dr. Seuss), who said," Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."

Yankee fans don't feel sorry for Jeter, just like Red Sox fans don't feel sorry for Ortiz and his wishes for an additional year or Pedro in 2005 when he wanted 4 more years. The guy has made roughly $250 million from baseball alone. Yankee fans feel sorry for themselves. They see diminished chances of living vicariously through the Empire. Jeter represented the last link to their glorious era from the mid 90's - late 00's. He's ready to pass the baton for the anchor leg and no one is ahead of him to take it. Cano left, Ellsbury is an outsider, and the upper levels of the farm system is pretty barren in comparison to the Stick Michael era of 20 years ago and the rest of MLB. Yankees' fans are searching for, but are scared they can't find, the answer for the next 20 years.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Given only those criteria? Raphael Palmeiro and Pete Rose.

Show me where I said Derek Jeter is not going in the Hall of Fame? I must have missed it..

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

I'm pretty sure you know exactly what he was saying. And picking two guys with HUGE black eyes on their record as evidence really doesn't do anything to dispel the opinion that Jeter would have been a HOFer regardless of position.

 

[Husky25]

I'm pretty sure you know exactly what he was saying. And picking two guys with HUGE black eyes on their record as evidence really doesn't do anything to dispel the opinion that Jeter would have been a HOFer regardless of position.

And I'm pretty sure I never said Jeter is not a HoFer.

Still waiting for someone to show me where I sate that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer. I said that without Ripken blazing the trail, He's a 3rd Baseman.

If given 3B for all or half of his career, Jeter may very well not have compiled the stats he did and possibly would not have attained HOF status. I never said Jeter is not a HOFer. He's not Don Mattingly. There is no argument there.

This is fun. How riled up can we get Yankee fans?

 

[WhereistheDove?]

And I'm pretty sure I never said Jeter is not a HoFer.

Still waiting for someone to show me where I sate that Jeter is not a Hall of Famer. I said that without Ripken blazing the trail, He's a 3rd Baseman.

If given 3B for all or half of his career, Jeter may very well not have compiled the stats he did and possibly would not have attained HOF status. I never said Jeter is not a HOFer. He's not Don Mattingly. There is no argument there.

This is fun. How riled up can we get Yankee fans?

I'm not a Yankees fan, but no one ever accused you of saying he absolutely wasn't a HOFer. You inferred that. The original comment was in response to you saying he possibly wouldn't have been a HOFer. I'm also not really sure how had he been a 3B, he may not have compiled the stats he did.... Is it because he would have been playing a less strenuous position?

 

[Husky25]

I'm not a Yankees fan, but no one ever accused you of saying he absolutely wasn't a HOFer. You inferred that. The original comment was in response to you saying he possibly wouldn't have been a HOFer. I'm also not really sure how had he been a 3B, he may not have compiled the stats he did.... Is it because he would have been playing a less strenuous position?

No, the original comment was in response to Jeter's transcendence (or lack thereof).

Every one of my posts explicitly states that Jeter is a HoFer and probably on the 1st ballot. The only time I mention the possibility otherwise was clearly a hypothetical based on revisionist history. That said, it is absolutely my opinion that if Ripken was not moved to shortstop in 1982 then Jeter would have been a 3rd baseman as well.

Now, excuse me. I have to go snowblow the driveway.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

No, the original comment was in response to Jeter's transcendence (or lack thereof).

Every one of my posts explicitly states that Jeter is a HoFer and probably on the 1st ballot. The only time I mention the possibility otherwise was clearly a hypothetical based on revisionist history. That said, it is absolutely my opinion that if Ripken was not moved to shortstop in 1982 then Jeter would have been a 3rd baseman as well.

Which still leads back to you saying that he potentially would not have been a HOFer, which is what Excalibur commented on. No one has accused of saying he absolutely isn't a HOFer. I'm not sure why you're so defensive about what you said.

 

[mauconnfan]

Well if it makes you feel better, I'm not a Red Sox fan, but I do understand the reasoning now haha. Though I will say, the advanced defensive metrics definitely don't agree with cano over pedroia

Well we won't get into metrics because they mean very little….Cano makes more impact plays look easy so metrics suck! Sorry…….it's not that close!

But who cares we have UConn basketball……...

 

[Buzzyboy]

Funniest part is that he compared him to Babe Ruth! You couldn't find a worse role model for society. Fortunately, he didn't grow up in the age of information.

Jeter wasn't even on MJ's, Ruth's, and Manning Montana's level in terms of being an icon either.

Jeter is easily as much of an icon as Joe Montana. Joe Montana is known for being a winner and what does 5 World Series titles mean to you???? He was clutch and savvy and classy and made big plays and performed when the lights were the brightest. How different is that than Montana. I won't compare Jeter to the other guys because I concede their place in history but Montana? He played for a hell of a club with super skilled players at every position and a Hall Of Fame coach so it wasn't the toughest thing in the world and didn't his replacement do just as well? So maybe it was more the team and less Joe Montana, right?