OT: Derek Jeter

[Buzzyboy]

You know you can win a world series with a sub-par fielder on the team, right? And not to come across as obnoxious, but quoting fielding percentage as proof of his defensive ability is the same incredibly flawed thinking that leads to close-minded baseball writers selecting undeserving gold glove winners. He was sure handed when he got to the ball, but his range was consistently not good and trying to judge that over a career based on amateur observation is a total exercise in futility. Pretty much every advanced defensive metric shares a common negative view of Jeter's defense over the course of his career. And let's be honest, with over 3300 hits, a .380 career OBP and a .310 BA, he was getting in to the HOF regardless of his defense. Take a look at this post:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/44294/a-few-notes-on-derek-jeters-defense

You can argue that he wasn't that bad, fine, but there's really no legitimate argument that he wasn't a defensive liability over the course of his career. He was an incredibly valuable player and easily one of the best SSs of all time, but that value came from the bat, not the glove, but realistically it just really doesn't matter where the value comes from.

I guess we can agree to disagree. The metrics aren't in my mind. I've seen him and scads of other shortstops play over 58 years and I know he wasn't close to a defensive liability. You mentioned his range and I know that he had good range through the first 1/2 or more of his career. He lost a step or two but then again, who hasn't.

 

[mauconnfan]

Bill Walsh and Joe Montana created a brand new offensive philosophy for their time, portions of which are still used today. They transcend their sport. Joe Montana is in the conversation of the greatest player in the history of his game. Jeter does not transcend his sport and he is barely in the top ten in his own teams' history.

Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

Listen, Jeter played int he steroid era and looks to have played clean…..RH hitters keeping a .312 career average in that many years are few and far between….he is easily Top 10 in his franchise history but not Top 5…….but remember unlike mostly every other team the Yankees storied past makes the Top 10 difficult to get into…...

If he played for the Red Sox you guys would have parades every year for the guy so please, let's not downplay his place int he game. He's not Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle etc etc but he's in the next set of names mentioned…….1999 he batted over .350 with 24 hr's and 102 RBI as a SS and came in 2nd to a huge roider or he would have an MVP also……..he's a first ballot HOFer and deservedly so……….pretty simple

 

[Husky25]

Listen, Jeter played int he steroid era and looks to have played clean…..RH hitters keeping a .312 career average in that many years are few and far between….he is easily Top 10 in his franchise history but not Top 5…….but remember unlike mostly every other team the Yankees storied past makes the Top 10 difficult to get into…...

If he played for the Red Sox you guys would have parades every year for the guy so please, let's not downplay his place int he game. He's not Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle etc etc but he's in the next set of names mentioned…….1999 he batted over .350 with 24 hr's and 102 RBI as a SS and came in 2nd to a huge roider or he would have an MVP also……..he's a first ballot HOFer and deservedly so……….pretty simple

I never said he was not a Hall of Famer.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I guess we can agree to disagree. The metrics aren't in my mind. I've seen him and scads of other shortstops play over 58 years and I know he wasn't close to a defensive liability. You mentioned his range and I know that he had good range through the first 1/2 or more of his career. He lost a step or two but then again, who hasn't.

We can and I don't mean this in a mean way, but as my generation is much more accepting of the value of these stats and recognizes how much better of a measure they are than the infamous baseball writer "eye test", I think we'll see these WTF gold glove winners like Jeter, Palmerio, etc. starting to significantly decrease. It is just downright impossible for the human brain to possibly accurately track the defensive performance of all players at a position over an entire year. Our minds will automatically give more credit to an amazing looking play even if there are many other players who would have made that play look much easier. It's just human nature.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I never said he was not a Hall of Famer.

You said had he been a 3B, he may not have been a HOFer. That's what people are taking exception to. I don't get how it's that hard to understand.

 

[Husky25]

You said had he been a 3B, he may not have been a HOFer. That's what people are taking exception to. I don't get how it's that hard to understand.

It was a hypothetical. If you aunt had nut she'd be your uncle.

I don't get how it's that hard to understand.

People are taking exception because people take it way too personally.

Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

 

[mauconnfan]

It was a hypothetical. If you aunt had nut she'd be your uncle.

I don't get how it's that hard to understand.

People are taking exception because people take it way too personally.

Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

I get it……kind of like if Papi played……..errr uhhhh……..anywhere I guess other than DH he may not be a HOFer?

 

[Husky25]

I get it……kind of like if Papi played……..errr uhhhh……..anywhere I guess other than DH he may not be a HOFer?

You know I think Papi is borderline.

He has PEDs working against him as well as many BBWAA Writers thinking just like you vis a vie the DH Primary.

Disclaimer: Derek Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

It was a hypothetical. If you aunt had nut she'd be your uncle.

I don't get how it's that hard to understand.

People are taking exception because people take it way too personally.

Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.

And people are responding to that hypothetical.... because it was a wrong hypothetical statement. If you don't want people commenting on it, you shouldn't have posted it.

 

[Husky25]

I dont care if they respond. I wouldn't post on a message board if I cared. Every one of you are missing the point though.

Every one of my posts relates back (some more loosely than others) to the OP's statement of Jeter's, "transcendence."

 

[David 76]

Jeter is not just a Hall of Fame player, he is a first round, virtually unanimous Hall of Famer.

 

[David 76]

Ruth, Gehrig, Di Maggio, Berra, Mantle. OK maybe DJ doesn't make the top 5 of Yankee history (neither would Yastremski, btw) but he is top 6 or 7. However he passed all those guys for hits, games, behind only Gehrig for doubles, behind only Ruth in OBP,3rd in extra base hits, first in steals.

The metrics move was a good corrective to only relying on the old baseball guys eyes. But like all movements there has been an over-reach in the data community. Things like a players form, a pitcher's wind up efficiency, and things not measured on a stat sheet that still count. Jeter had intangibles that they don't know how to measure yet. The data darlings may get offended, but data is very important, it is not the only important thing.

 

[StevieDude]

Once ARod started using his range was history….legs slower was no longer a SS although when he was he was damn good, younger years! BUt Jeter was good when young, admittedly some GG's were a farce but again they still play favorites on that award!

So you really think he lost all his range in high school?

 

[mauconnfan]

So you really think he lost all his range in high school?

That's pretty good…LOL….he started getting a lot bigger with Texas and the Yanks for sure though so who knows……but you may have a point

 

[Buzzyboy]

Eh, I just threw Montana in there, mainly because someone else tried sneaking Peyton Manning with that group. Which I thought was laughable. Whenever anyone talks best QB ever, Montana is usually the first name that comes up (whether it's correct or not).

Also, while they are both team sports, a quarterback is a hell of a lot more important to his team than any position in baseball. Any position in sports actually.

The 5 world series titles is good, no question. But I'd argue an individual's players importance to a title in baseball is less so than a sport like basketball or a position like quarterback in football.

Again, how much did the 49'ers lose when Montana left?????? Not much, NOTHING! So, was he that superb or was it the team including the receivers, one of whom is the all time leading receiver in history. Then too, how much offense did Montana provide? I don't remember his numbers being off the charts and that was in the early days of the West Coast offense when defenses weren't proficient in defending it. I also remember seeing him play at Notre Dame and thinking, this guy is really a very mediocre quarterback and can't Notre Dame do any better. He improved and played better with a superb offensive line with San Francisco. The quarterback gets a lot of credit when the team does well and so it's Montana leads the 49'ers to a Super Bowl title but when you compare his teams and how many great skilled players he had year after year and then you see what Tom Brady has done with the riff raff he's had year after year. I can't conceive Montana would have done anywhere near as well with Brady's receiver corps nor his running backs though I concede Brady has always had a pretty good offensive line. I definitely don't think Montana deserves any more accolades than Jeter, no way, no how! Maybe not nearly as much, in fact.

 

[mauconnfan]

Again, how much did the 49'ers lose when Montana left?????? Not much, NOTHING! So, was he that superb or was it the team including the receivers, one of whom is the all time leading receiver in history. Then too, how much offense did Montana provide? I don't remember his numbers being off the charts and that was in the early days of the West Coast offense when defenses weren't proficient in defending it. I also remember seeing him play at Notre Dame and thinking, this guy is really a very mediocre quarterback and can't Notre Dame do any better. He improved and played better with a superb offensive line with San Francisco. The quarterback gets a lot of credit when the team does well and so it's Montana leads the 49'ers to a Super Bowl title but when you compare his teams and how many great skilled players he had year after year and then you see what Tom Brady has done with the riff raff he's had year after year. I can't conceive Montana would have done anywhere near as well with Brady's receiver corps nor his running backs though I concede Brady has always had a pretty good offensive line. I definitely don't think Montana deserves any more accolades than Jeter, no way, no how! Maybe not nearly as much, in fact.

yeah the offense that Walsh installed was pretty successful with Young and others……..Rice was pretty good too! To me QB is probably more important than SS but it's all relative and worth debate……

 

[Husky25]

Again, how much did the 49'ers lose when Montana left?????? Not much, NOTHING! So, was he that superb or was it the team including the receivers, one of whom is the all time leading receiver in history. Then too, how much offense did Montana provide? I don't remember his numbers being off the charts and that was in the early days of the West Coast offense when defenses weren't proficient in defending it. I also remember seeing him play at Notre Dame and thinking, this guy is really a very mediocre quarterback and can't Notre Dame do any better. He improved and played better with a superb offensive line with San Francisco. The quarterback gets a lot of credit when the team does well and so it's Montana leads the 49'ers to a Super Bowl title but when you compare his teams and how many great skilled players he had year after year and then you see what Tom Brady has done with the riff raff he's had year after year. I can't conceive Montana would have done anywhere near as well with Brady's receiver corps nor his running backs though I concede Brady has always had a pretty good offensive line. I definitely don't think Montana deserves any more accolades than Jeter, no way, no how! Maybe not nearly as much, in fact.

Jerry Rice was a 1985 draft pick. He had no part in the firts two Montana Super Bowls.

The '9ers didnt fall off with Steve Young because he's a HoFer in his own right.

 

[mauconnfan]

Jerry Rice was a 1985 draft pick. He had no part in the firts two Montana Super Bowls.

The '9ers didnt fall off with Steve Young because he's a HoFer in his own right.

Or maybe they were HOFers thanks to Walsh? Both very good QB's in what turned out to be an efficient offensive machine no matter who was throwing……Montana made it the best and with Young they didn't lose much. Both HOFers and dervervedly so……..just like Jeter. No matter, one sport has 9 guys the other 11, there's more to both than the 1 HOFer so who's more important than the other? Argue it ALL DAY…….bottom line is first ballot HOFer.

 

[David 76]

Not arguing the Jeter point, that's beyond arguing. Jeter is great.

But the QB vs SS point is interesting. The SS is the most important position on defense. The QB is even more important to his team's offense. But the QB has no direct impact on defense while a SS, especially Jeter, is very important to his team's defense. No football team can win without defense, not Montana, Unitas or Brady. Just ask Marino or John Hadl. (old timer alert)

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Not arguing the Jeter point, that's beyond arguing. Jeter is great.

But the QB vs SS point is interesting. The SS is the most important position on defense. The QB is even more important to his team's offense. But the QB has no direct impact on defense while a SS, especially Jeter, is very important to his team's defense. No football team can win without defense, not Montana, Unitas or Brady. Just ask Marino or John Hadl. (old timer alert)

I'm not sure this is the best argument when using Jeter, who rarely actually helped his defense. I'll say this for this argument. I think it's much easier to cover up a subpar player at short than it is to cover up a supbar QB. There are plenty of teams who have all defense or all offense SSs are are still successful. And I will say this; if you look at the 2011 NFL season, you'll see the two worst defenses by far (NE and GB) combined to go 28-4. It's definitely harder but still doable.

 

[Husky25]

Or maybe they were HOFers thanks to Walsh? Both very good QB's in what turned out to be an efficient offensive machine no matter who was throwing……Montana made it the best and with Young they didn't lose much. Both HOFers and dervervedly so……..just like Jeter. No matter, one sport has 9 guys the other 11, there's more to both than the 1 HOFer so who's more important than the other? Argue it ALL DAY…….bottom line is first ballot HOFer.

Never argued against Jeter not being a HoFer.