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And this is the thinking that led to gold gloves for Jeter...
OT: Derek Jeter
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Your remark suggests that he wasn't a decent fielder? That he was a liability? You are definitely out of wack on that. Look at his fielding percentage. Not too shabby. He had good range, not great range but played the pivot well. He's not going to go into the Hall Of Fame based on his glove but if he wasn't at least a pretty decent fielder, he probably wouldn't get in at all. He never hurt the team with his glove and I think he was an asset because with the middle of any infield being a key to any defense, didn't the Yankees win a bunch of pennants and World Series. Your suggesting that their defense sucked, then???? Who the hell was making plays for the Yankees? Then they got ARod and wouldn't put him at shortstop so as not to ruffle Jeter's feathers in your mind? I don't think the Yankees patronized Jeter so much that they would allow an inferior defensive player to botch up the middle of the infield when they had an All Star shortstop in ARod who could make so much of a difference playing that position. I'll concede ARod was a better shortstop but the difference between them wasn't so substantial that the Yankees would move Jeter to Third. That suggests Jeter was pretty good and that your opinion really doesn't seem to have a lot of validity.
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Once ARod started using his range was history….legs slower was no longer a SS although when he was he was damn good, younger years! BUt Jeter was good when young, admittedly some GG's were a farce but again they still play favorites on that award!
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I don't think him winning a Golden Glove was a big joke. I've seen him make countless outstanding plays and though his range wasn't as substantial as a couple of other guys, he had an accurate arm, made the pivot well and had a quick release while always making plays in the clutch. Now if Papi was getting a Golden Glove, then we have to concede it's April Fools Day or something.
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And to continue this pointless discussion, neither of those guys have career averages of 310... Rose was barely over 300 and Palmeiro was around 290. I still don't understand your premise that if Jeter were a 3B and put up those stats that he wouldn't have been a HOF. It doesn't make sense. I could understand you comparing a catcher or Ozzie Smith or something like that. But anyone over 3000 hits (without enormous baggage) is or will be a hall of famer (despite my belief that Craig Biggio should not be one, but that's another pointless discussion for another time).
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Mandela played baseball?????? He's talking about baseball which was called America's pastime when I was growing up. You find so many players in so many sports getting adulation and a lot of them, most of them fall short of being a healthy image for kids to aspire to. Jeter isn't one of those guys who falls short. You never hear him being controversial, talking down anybody, raising a fuss, showing up umpires or managers. He's always carried himself well and to do that in the media center of the world, with a microphone constantly forced down your throat, he's been articulate, positive, hardworking and skilled for twenty years. There are others who've also been a role model on and off the field but not in a market like New York where your every move is under scrutiny 24/7. You've heard remarks from a lot of people that aren't Yankee groupies in the baseball community including the commissioner who've lauded his achievements on the field and that way he's represented himself, the Yankees and major baseball over these twenty years. This announcement should have been a time for people to show respect for the way he's played (hard) and for the positive role model he's been and not find some stupid knitpicking issues questioning whether he was absolutely the best defensive shortstop in the years that he was selected as Golden Glove. Those arguments should have been discussed then and not with him but with whoever votes for the Golden Glove. He's an amazingly well rounded ballplayer whose a credit to the game, period!
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intlzncster
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Eh, I just threw Montana in there, mainly because someone else tried sneaking Peyton Manning with that group. Which I thought was laughable. Whenever anyone talks best QB ever, Montana is usually the first name that comes up (whether it's correct or not).
Also, while they are both team sports, a quarterback is a hell of a lot more important to his team than any position in baseball. Any position in sports actually.
The 5 world series titles is good, no question. But I'd argue an individual's players importance to a title in baseball is less so than a sport like basketball or a position like quarterback in football.
Husky25
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Bill Walsh and Joe Montana created a brand new offensive philosophy for their time, portions of which are still used today. They transcend their sport. Joe Montana is in the conversation of the greatest player in the history of his game. Jeter does not transcend his sport and he is barely in the top ten in his own teams' history.
Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
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Husky25
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Because typically, 3b is a power position, which is not Jeter's offensive game. It was not Boggs' game either and he is in the HoF, but that doesn't further my pointless view.
All of my posts continues to go back to the, "Jeter transcends..." comment that the OP made. How can he transcend? He wasn't the best of his era by a wide margin (No MVPs. A-Rod, Ripken and Larkin; Smith and Vizquel for defense all have a stake in the conversation) or first (Ripken. Before Ripken, SS before him were puny in comparison and defensive in nature).
Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
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You know you can win a world series with a sub-par fielder on the team, right? And not to come across as obnoxious, but quoting fielding percentage as proof of his defensive ability is the same incredibly flawed thinking that leads to close-minded baseball writers selecting undeserving gold glove winners. He was sure handed when he got to the ball, but his range was consistently not good and trying to judge that over a career based on amateur observation is a total exercise in futility. Pretty much every advanced defensive metric shares a common negative view of Jeter's defense over the course of his career. And let's be honest, with over 3300 hits, a .380 career OBP and a .310 BA, he was getting in to the HOF regardless of his defense. Take a look at this post:
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/44294/a-few-notes-on-derek-jeters-defense
You can argue that he wasn't that bad, fine, but there's really no legitimate argument that he wasn't a defensive liability over the course of his career. He was an incredibly valuable player and easily one of the best SSs of all time, but that value came from the bat, not the glove, but realistically it just really doesn't matter where the value comes from.
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I guess we can agree to disagree. The metrics aren't in my mind. I've seen him and scads of other shortstops play over 58 years and I know he wasn't close to a defensive liability. You mentioned his range and I know that he had good range through the first 1/2 or more of his career. He lost a step or two but then again, who hasn't.
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Listen, Jeter played int he steroid era and looks to have played clean…..RH hitters keeping a .312 career average in that many years are few and far between….he is easily Top 10 in his franchise history but not Top 5…….but remember unlike mostly every other team the Yankees storied past makes the Top 10 difficult to get into…...
If he played for the Red Sox you guys would have parades every year for the guy so please, let's not downplay his place int he game. He's not Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle etc etc but he's in the next set of names mentioned…….1999 he batted over .350 with 24 hr's and 102 RBI as a SS and came in 2nd to a huge roider or he would have an MVP also……..he's a first ballot HOFer and deservedly so……….pretty simple
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Husky25
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I never said he was not a Hall of Famer.
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We can and I don't mean this in a mean way, but as my generation is much more accepting of the value of these stats and recognizes how much better of a measure they are than the infamous baseball writer "eye test", I think we'll see these WTF gold glove winners like Jeter, Palmerio, etc. starting to significantly decrease. It is just downright impossible for the human brain to possibly accurately track the defensive performance of all players at a position over an entire year. Our minds will automatically give more credit to an amazing looking play even if there are many other players who would have made that play look much easier. It's just human nature.
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You said had he been a 3B, he may not have been a HOFer. That's what people are taking exception to. I don't get how it's that hard to understand.
Husky25
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It was a hypothetical. If you aunt had nut she'd be your uncle.
I don't get how it's that hard to understand.
People are taking exception because people take it way too personally.
Disclaimer: Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
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I get it……kind of like if Papi played……..errr uhhhh……..anywhere I guess other than Dan Hurley he may not be a HOFer?
Husky25
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I get it……kind of like if Papi played……..errr uhhhh……..anywhere I guess other than Dan Hurley he may not be a HOFer?
You know I think Papi is borderline.
He has PEDs working against him as well as many BBWAA Writers thinking just like you vis a vie the Dan Hurley Primary.
Disclaimer: Derek Jeter will be elected to the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum.
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And people are responding to that hypothetical.... because it was a wrong hypothetical statement. If you don't want people commenting on it, you shouldn't have posted it.
Husky25
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I dont care if they respond. I wouldn't post on a message board if I cared. Every one of you are missing the point though.
Every one of my posts relates back (some more loosely than others) to the OP's statement of Jeter's, "transcendence."
Every one of my posts relates back (some more loosely than others) to the OP's statement of Jeter's, "transcendence."
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David 76
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Ruth, Gehrig, Di Maggio, Berra, Mantle. OK maybe DJ doesn't make the top 5 of Yankee history (neither would Yastremski, btw) but he is top 6 or 7. However he passed all those guys for hits, games, behind only Gehrig for doubles, behind only Ruth in OBP,3rd in extra base hits, first in steals.
The metrics move was a good corrective to only relying on the old baseball guys eyes. But like all movements there has been an over-reach in the data community. Things like a players form, a pitcher's wind up efficiency, and things not measured on a stat sheet that still count. Jeter had intangibles that they don't know how to measure yet. The data darlings may get offended, but data is very important, it is not the only important thing.
The metrics move was a good corrective to only relying on the old baseball guys eyes. But like all movements there has been an over-reach in the data community. Things like a players form, a pitcher's wind up efficiency, and things not measured on a stat sheet that still count. Jeter had intangibles that they don't know how to measure yet. The data darlings may get offended, but data is very important, it is not the only important thing.
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So you really think he lost all his range in high school?
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That's pretty good…LOL….he started getting a lot bigger with Texas and the Yanks for sure though so who knows……but you may have a point
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Again, how much did the 49'ers lose when Montana left?????? Not much, NOTHING! So, was he that superb or was it the team including the receivers, one of whom is the all time leading receiver in history. Then too, how much offense did Montana provide? I don't remember his numbers being off the charts and that was in the early days of the West Coast offense when defenses weren't proficient in defending it. I also remember seeing him play at Notre Dame and thinking, this guy is really a very mediocre quarterback and can't Notre Dame do any better. He improved and played better with a superb offensive line with San Francisco. The quarterback gets a lot of credit when the team does well and so it's Montana leads the 49'ers to a Super Bowl title but when you compare his teams and how many great skilled players he had year after year and then you see what Tom Brady has done with the riff raff he's had year after year. I can't conceive Montana would have done anywhere near as well with Brady's receiver corps nor his running backs though I concede Brady has always had a pretty good offensive line. I definitely don't think Montana deserves any more accolades than Jeter, no way, no how! Maybe not nearly as much, in fact.
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yeah the offense that Walsh installed was pretty successful with Young and others……..Rice was pretty good too! To me QB is probably more important than SS but it's all relative and worth debate……
Husky25
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Jerry Rice was a 1985 draft pick. He had no part in the firts two Montana Super Bowls.
The '9ers didnt fall off with Steve Young because he's a HoFer in his own right.
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Or maybe they were HOFers thanks to Walsh? Both very good QB's in what turned out to be an efficient offensive machine no matter who was throwing……Montana made it the best and with Young they didn't lose much. Both HOFers and dervervedly so……..just like Jeter. No matter, one sport has 9 guys the other 11, there's more to both than the 1 HOFer so who's more important than the other? Argue it ALL DAY…….bottom line is first ballot HOFer.
David 76
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Not arguing the Jeter point, that's beyond arguing. Jeter is great.
But the QB vs SS point is interesting. The SS is the most important position on defense. The QB is even more important to his team's offense. But the QB has no direct impact on defense while a SS, especially Jeter, is very important to his team's defense. No football team can win without defense, not Montana, Unitas or Brady. Just ask Marino or John Hadl. (old timer alert)
But the QB vs SS point is interesting. The SS is the most important position on defense. The QB is even more important to his team's offense. But the QB has no direct impact on defense while a SS, especially Jeter, is very important to his team's defense. No football team can win without defense, not Montana, Unitas or Brady. Just ask Marino or John Hadl. (old timer alert)
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I'm not sure this is the best argument when using Jeter, who rarely actually helped his defense. I'll say this for this argument. I think it's much easier to cover up a subpar player at short than it is to cover up a supbar QB. There are plenty of teams who have all defense or all offense SSs are are still successful. And I will say this; if you look at the 2011 NFL season, you'll see the two worst defenses by far (NE and GB) combined to go 28-4. It's definitely harder but still doable.
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