OT: Derek Jeter

[WhereistheDove?]

Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.

Career .312/.381/.446 line from a shortstop?! Yeah, that's pretty freaking good and certainly hall of fame and superstar stats out of a shortstop who sustained that as long as he did.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Wow, where does that kinda remark come from. I don't think Derek Jeter gave himself gold gloves so for you to bring that up when responding to his retirement announcement after an illustrious and classy career is about bullcrap. He was in the most intense media market in the world for almost 20 years and conducted himself in a manner that brings honor and respect to himself and to the game of baseball. He put up some incredibly good numbers year after year and was an inspiration on and off the field for thousands if not millions of young kids and you gotta come up with gold glove crap. Unbelievable.

This is a joke, which is based in truth. I love that some people in this thread are telling me how much worse he is than I say he is and some people are telling me how much better. But seriously, this faction that has taken any negative comment towards him as an affront to god needs to chill out. He's a baseball player, who I've even said was one of the best offensive shortstops of all time and absolutely deserves to be in the HOF. But let's be serious, he was a terrible defensive player over the course of his career.

 

[boog204]

Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.

Idiotic post. He's among the greatest shortstops ever and could be argued the greatest ever (at least in the modern era). Those average stats, coupled with 100 runs scored, 20sbs, and a 380+obp (800+ops) every year hitting second (it's 16hr/yr) are historically superstar stats for a shortstop. No 'roids, leadership up the ass, clutch as a . He was absolutely a superstar and everyone knows it. He was an overrated defensive player in terms of winning gold gloves; mainly for a lack of range up the middle. He was, however, extremely reliable and made every play he could get to. For comparison sake some average year stats of the hall of fame middle infielders of Jeter's era (non roids guys) along with Honus Wagner, who we really can't compare to...

Honus Wagner: .328 6HR, 100rbi
Roberto Alomar: 300 14hr, 77rbi
Cal Ripken: 276 23hr 71rbi
Robin Yount 285 14hr 80rbi
Barry Larkin 291 15hr 71rbi
Derek Jeter 312 16hr 79rbi

And pray tell, who were these amazing offensive players that everyone loves to talk about that Jeter leeched off of? During the hey day of the yanks, he was the 2 hitter w/ O'Neill, Bernie, and Tino behind him. Those were all very good players but Jeter was consistently better than all of them. Those were the best offensive players of their era? Uh, no. After that when the Yanks went idiotic w/ the payroll he had a coming off roids and quickly diminishing Giambi, 2 decent years of a roided up and breaking down Sheffield, the ARod circus, and then a diminishing Tex. He had some of his worst years w/ those mega stars around him.

 

[boog204]

This is a joke, which is based in truth. I love that some people in this thread are telling me how much worse he is than I say he is and some people are telling me how much better. But seriously, this faction that has taken any negative comment towards him as an affront to god needs to chill out. He's a baseball player, who I've even said was one of the best offensive shortstops of all time and absolutely deserves to be in the HOF. But let's be serious, he was a terrible defensive player over the course of his career.

He wasn't terrible. He did not have great range up the middle. His defensive war was slightly below average. But he was pretty reliable. A terrible defensive shortstop is Jose Offerman or Eduardo Nunez or something like that...

 

[Buzzyboy]

He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.

You're wrong, it helped the gazillion dollar players batting around Derek Jeter. He obviously got more media attention being in New York (and helping win 5 World Championships) but there are guys in other small markets whose aggregate totals are similar to his, who are pretty renowned guys. Paul Molitor and Robyn Yount come to mind. Oh yeah, what about Cal Ripken whose biggest claim to fame is that he played more consecutive games (a lot of games he should have missed and instead hurt his team) who was in a small market. He may have had more power but he had years that were pretty ordinary by any standard used. They were pretty well known guys, right? I don't think there's a Yankee whose ever had more respect from his teammates, other ballplayers or the media than Jeter and that's because he rates it. He's played high quality ball under the microscope of New York and done it with the utter most class you can display. He's worthy of his own bubblegum or candy bar and has been so much more of a credit to baseball than the steroid boys, Manny Ramirez and ARod and a ton of other guys. Look at Jim Rice who was probably close to the worst clutch hitter in the history of baseball and still somehow made the Hall of Fame. He had the personality of a block of wood and had the fielding skills of Edward Scissorhand and put up numbers in meaningless situations year after year, somehow getting into the Hall. Now they have Mr Personality of NESN.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

In this thread - a lot of people showing their sheer ignorance of advanced baseball statistics.

Jeter is a first ballot hall of fame player wherever he played. Winning titles in New York with all of his memorable moments is what makes him a legend.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

He wasn't terrible. He did not have great range up the middle. His defensive war was slightly below average. But he was pretty reliable. A terrible defensive shortstop is Jose Offerman or Eduardo Nunez or something like that...

We're going waaaaay to the end of the spectrum with those comparisons. He had a couple mediocre seasons tossed in there, but for the most part he was pretty awful as a defender. His UZR/150 over his career puts him 23rd out of 26th for qualified players over that same span, ahead of only Tony Womack, Hanley Ramirez, and Yuniesky Betancourt. Hall of fame hitter, which thankfully overshadowed this rather glaring weakness.

 

[Buzzyboy]

He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.

Your ridiculous numbers for Jeter based on 162 games is supposed to really mean something, isn't it. Well, you're probably a big Red Sox fan and do yourself a favor and check out Carl Yaztremski's totals over 162 games and you'll find out how totally ordinary this Hall of Famer is based on that formula. His stats are approximately the same as Dwight Evans who never got a sniff of the Hall of Fame but who played the most difficult position in Fenway (and maybe all of baseball) in rightfield and had more assists from throwing out guys from there than any right fielder in history. Meanwhile Yaz played probably the easiest position in baseball (left field in Fenway) where all you have to do is learn the caroms to be solid there. You've had some of the worst defensive fielders in baseball history play there because it's such an easy position including Ted Williams, Jim Rice and Manny Ramirez. None of them had any kind of fielding ability and so maybe throw Yaz out of the Hall and put in Dewie Evans. I had so much more respect for him (Evans) than Yaz and he was more of a clutch hitter than Yaz, as well. Did you know that Yaz batted under 270 (which sucks) more often than he batted over .300 (isn't that interesting?) Jeter was a good defensive player at probably the most difficult position on the diamond and an outstanding leader as well as a clutch hitter. His playoff stats are off the charts as is his All-Star game stats. I think you make yourself look foolish by trying to diminish Jeter. I think you diminish yourself, buddy!

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Your ridiculous numbers for Jeter based on 162 games is supposed to really mean something, isn't it. Well, you're probably a big Red Sox fan and do yourself a favor and check out Carl Yaztremski's totals over 162 games and you'll find out how totally ordinary this Hall of Famer is based on that formula. His stats are approximately the same as Dwight Evans who never got a sniff of the Hall of Fame but who played the most difficult position in Fenway (and maybe all of baseball) in rightfield and had more assists from throwing out guys from there than any right fielder in history. Meanwhile Yaz played probably the easiest position in baseball (left field in Fenway) where all you have to do is learn the caroms to be solid there. You've had some of the worst defensive fielders in baseball history play there because it's such an easy position including Ted Williams, Jim Rice and Manny Ramirez. None of them had any kind of fielding ability and so maybe throw Yaz out of the Hall and put in Dewie Evans. I had so much more respect for him (Evans) than Yaz and he was more of a clutch hitter than Yaz, as well. Did you know that Yaz batted under 270 (which sucks) more often than he batted over .300 (isn't that interesting?) Jeter was a good defensive player at probably the most difficult position on the diamond and an outstanding leader as well as a clutch hitter. His playoff stats are off the charts as is his All-Star game stats. I think you make yourself look foolish by trying to diminish Jeter. I think you diminish yourself, buddy!

Jeter is a HOFer, but don't kid yourself, he was not a good fielder.... at all.

 

[Husky25]

Jeter was a good player an almost certain 1st ballot HoFer, but lets not overstate it. There are plenty of First Ballot HoFer's that don't transcend sports. Let me play Devil's advocate. If he did transcend sports, tell me how he transcended baseball first.

First Big Body Shortstop? Nope. Cal Ripken beat him by over a dozen years; A-Rod by at least one.
Best player in the league? Nope, not a single MVP award. Came in the top 3 a few years, but A-Rod has 3 MVPs and Ripken has 2.
Best player at his position? Arguable, which means there are just as (if not more) viable arguments against. A-Rod was the best SS in the league until 2004 and for a while Jeter wasn't even considered the best SS on his own team. Garciaparra was arguably a better all around [player who played] SS [in the field] through 2003.
He was steady and he played 19 years (17 can be considered full). IF you disregard the Worlds Series titles and NY, Jeter would be a stat accumulator. Alas the pressure of doing it in the Big Apple does count for something.

In my opinion a player has to make the Mt. Rushmore in to be considered transcendent. Jeter doesn't even make it for his own team (Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio). Berra & Whitey have a seat at the table before him as well.

By the way Transcendent Baseball players = Ruth, Cobb, Robinson, and Gibson
Transcendent Basketball players = Bird, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic
Transcendent Football players = Montana, LT, Brown, and Rice
Transcendent Football players = Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Richard.

 

[boog204]

Jeter was a good player an almost certain 1st ballot HoFer, but lets not overstate it. There are plenty of First Ballot HoFer's that don't transcend sports. Let me play Devil's advocate. If he did transcend sports, tell me how he transcended baseball first.

First Big Body Shortstop? Nope. Cal Ripken beat him by over a dozen years; A-Rod by at least one.
Best player in the league? Nope, not a single MVP award. Came in the top 3 a few years, but A-Rod has 3 MVPs and Ripken has 2.
Best player at his position? Arguable, which means there are just as (if not more) viable arguments against. A-Rod was the best SS in the league until 2004 and for a while Jeter wasn't even considered the best SS on his own team. Garciaparra was arguably a better all around SS through 2003.
He was steady and he played 19 years (17 can be considered full). IF you disregard the Worlds Series titles and NY, Jeter would be a stat accumulator. Alas the pressure of doing it in the Big Apple does count for something.

In my opinion a player has to make the Mt. Rushmore in to be considered transcendent. Jeter doesn't even make it for his own team (Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio). Berra & Whitey have a seat at the table before him as well.

By the way Transcendent Baseball players = Ruth, Cobb, Robinson, and Gibson
Transcendent Basketball players = Bird, Jordan, Wilt, and Magic
Transcendent Football players = Montana, LT, Brown, and Rice
Transcendent Football players = Orr, Howe, Gretzky and Richard.

I may have missed the "transcendent" statement. Obviously, he's not any of those guys. Also, using the Yankees for your Mt. Rushmore argument is a bit dumb, imo. One could argue that 3 of the 5 greatest players of all time are on the Yanks (Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio) and that's not including guys like Mantle and Berra. If Jeter is a top 10 Yankee it speaks volumes to how great he was. Other than Mays, Aaron, Williams and I'm sure someone I'm forgetting about, who else can even approach the Yankees Mount Rushmore?

For the MVP argument, ARod won 3 MVPs on roids. If we are counting the roids guys, then ARod is the greatest SS of all time and it's not even close; even with half of his career played there. If we're not, I think we could make the argument that Jeter is the best modern shortstop of all time. Jeter should have been the MVP in 06 and finished behind two roids guys (Nomar and Juan Gonzalez) in 98.

I disagree on the stat accumulator idea b/c he's a career 312 hitter with a 828ops. His career has been fairly consistent throughout. This isn't Biggio who was a career 280 and hung around just to get 3000 hits. Jeter led the league in hits and hit 316 at 38 years old.

He was a great player. Not a complimentary player or an accumulator. Pedro Martinez said during the WS last year that Jeter was the guy he didn't want to face in a big spot. That's legit from the most dominant pitcher of his era.

 

[Cheddie]

Turning your final season into a victory lap is lame. Play or don't. Announce your retirement when you're actually retiring.

Easy to say when you're not being asked multiple times a day about how much longer you're going to play (as he was last year). If you know you're going, do you mislead the beat writers?

 

[Husky25]

... I just want to touch on what he means to society. He's a truly transcendent player, a label that only belongs to a handful of athletes; MJ, Babe Ruth, Peyton Manning, etc. ...

I may have missed the "transcendent" statement. Obviously, he's not any of those guys. Also, using the Yankees for your Mt. Rushmore argument is a bit dumb, imo. One could argue that 3 of the 5 greatest players of all time are on the Yanks (Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio) and that's not including guys like Mantle and Berra. If Jeter is a top 10 Yankee it speaks volumes to how great he was. Other than Mays, Aaron, Williams and I'm sure someone I'm forgetting about, who else can even approach the Yankees Mount Rushmore?

For the MVP argument, ARod won 3 MVPs on roids. If we are counting the roids guys, then ARod is the greatest SS of all time and it's not even close; even with half of his career played there. If we're not, I think we could make the argument that Jeter is the best modern shortstop of all time. Jeter should have been the MVP in 06 and finished behind two roids guys (Nomar and Juan Gonzalez) in 98.

I disagree on the stat accumulator idea b/c he's a career 312 hitter with a 828ops. His career has been fairly consistent throughout. This isn't Biggio who was a career 280 and hung around just to get 3000 hits. Jeter led the league in hits and hit 316 at 38 years old.

He was a great player. Not a complimentary player or an accumulator. Pedro Martinez said during the WS last year that Jeter was the guy he didn't want to face in a big spot. That's legit from the most dominant pitcher of his era.

You must have missed where I say Jeter is most likely a 1st Ballot HoFer...OTOH, I absolutely think there is a fair amount of overreaction in this thread.

Why should Jeter have won the MVP in 2006? He certainly was not robbed. No other NYY was in the top 5 so he didn't split the vote. Morneau had 72 extra base hits (34 HRs and 1 3B), 130 RBI, and a .934 OPS for a playoff team, where he batted .417.

Regarding the MLB Mt Rushmore, Jeter is behind my MLB Mt. Rushmore, The Yankee Mt. Rushmore AND all those guys you mentioned, plus some others probably like Koufax and Ryan. One truly cannot be transcendent if they are behind all those guys. He didn't change the game.

No one knows for sure who is 100% clean. I would not be surprised about anyone. Do you know for a fact that Jeter never had a "green" cup of coffee? And if you are talking about the best modern SS. Cal Ripken Jr. says hi and Barry Larkin throws his name into the Goblet of Fire as well.

 

[The Viking]

Yeah... That's just the little kid in me talking. But he really does mean a lot to me and every other Yankee fan that saw this model of excellence play growing up. I'm sure, for you Sox fans, that anyone who saw Ted Williams growing up would say similar things. You know, besides the winning. And the class.

I'll grant you that Ted Williams was grumpy and Jeter was cool as a cucumber. But let's keep in mind that Mr. Williams was a fighter pilot for 5 years of his baseball career. He's probably allowed to be grumpy.

Let's also keep in mind that if he played in the old Yankee Stadium half of his games and if he didn't give up 5 seasons to fight overseas, he'd probably finish his career with 750+ HR's and 10 rings.

 

[boog204]

You must have missed where I say Jeter is most likely a 1st Ballot HoFer...OTOH, I absolutely think there is a fair amount of overreaction in this thread.

Why should Jeter have won the MVP in 2006? He certainly was not robbed. No other NYY was in the top 5 so he didn't split the vote. Morneau had 72 extra base hits (34 HRs and 1 3B), 130 RBI, and a .934 OPS for a playoff team, where he batted .417.

Regarding the MLB Mt Rushmore, Jeter is behind my MLB Mt. Rushmore, The Yankee Mt. Rushmore AND all those guys you mentioned, plus some others probably like Koufax and Ryan. One truly cannot be transcendent if they are behind all those guys. He didn't change the game.

No one knows for sure who is 100% clean. I would not be surprised about anyone. Do you know for a fact that Jeter never had a "green" cup of coffee? And if you are talking about the best modern SS. Cal Ripken Jr. says hi and Barry Larkin throws his name into the Goblet of Fire as well.

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

I don't think any rational fan is justifying Jeter as one of the greatest players of all time. He is a no doubt first ballot HOFer and I do think you could make the very strong argument that he's one of the top 3 shortstops ever.

 

[boog204]

I'll grant you that Ted Williams was grumpy and Jeter was cool as a cucumber. But let's keep in mind that Mr. Williams was a fighter pilot for 5 years of his baseball career. He's probably allowed to be grumpy.

Let's also keep in mind that if he played in the old Yankee Stadium half of his games and if he didn't give up 5 seasons to fight overseas, he'd probably finish his career with 750+ HR's and 10 rings.

Yeah, Ted Williams was an American hero before you even consider his baseball greatness. Dude could have been as grumpy as he wanted. John Wayne modeled his shtick after Ted Williams. 'Nuff said.

 

[intlzncster]

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

There'd be "shock" in the media, but I don't think most fans would be too surprised. I wouldn't. And that's got nothing to do with Jeter, it's just what this era of players has brought on themselves. Everybody is up for debate. Personally, I don't think players were all that clean over the preceding years, it's just that cheating became much more effective in recent years.

 

[Husky25]

Robbed might be too strong of a word, but Jeter had a 900ops and hit .343 for a playoff team where he hit .500 (8 for 16) and had a higher WAR. Lots of people thought Jeter should have been the MVP that year.

I think the overreaction was more towards the people who said that Jeter was merely a complimentary player and a compiler. I personally would put Jeter ahead of Barry Larkin and ahead of Cal. Cal had a couple of HUGE years offensively but also a few fairly pedestrian 250/20/70 years (career ops of 778.) Half of his career he had seasons w/ an OPS under .800 while Jeter has only had 6 in his 18 years (career OPS of 828). Obviously, Cal has the amazing games played streak and him being the first true big shortstop but was he truly a better player than Jeter? Also, the transcendent argument is pretty pointless and I'm not sure why we're even talking about. He didn't change the game, but he was one of the greats. He's not Mays, Ruth, etc., but he's certainly of the best players of his era and he did it when there was rampant cheating. There has never been one whisper of steroid use. We'll never know for sure, but I think 99.9% of people would be really, really surprised if his name came up.

I don't think any rational fan is justifying Jeter as one of the greatest players of all time. He is a no doubt first ballot HOFer and I do think you could make the very strong argument that he's one of the top 3 shortstops ever.

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

Also I didn't say steroids. I said Green, as in greenies; Amphetamines, which were rampant from the 60's, onward.

 

[mauconnfan]

He was a perfect fit for the Yankees.

But really if you put him on KC, Milwaukee, Colorado, a Cleveland or another stiff team for his whole career, it would be Derek Who?
Great complimentary player, but he could never carry a team.
It did help him having gazillion dollar players batting around him his whole career.

You're a fn dope……always were but now you're HUGE ….DOPE!

 

[mauconnfan]

As incredible of an offensive-force as he was, his contribution to pointing out how much of a joke the gold glove award is was equally as important. But in all seriousness, heck of a player.

Yeah you should know that…..the midget ahead of Cano was right there with the worst!!! LOL

 

[boog204]

Without Cal as the trailblazer, Jeter is a third baseman (probably should have moved over in 2004) and possibly not a HoFer because 3B is considered a power position, offensively.

Also I didn't say steroids. I said Green, as in greenies; Amphetamines, which were rampant from the 60's, onward.

Dude has 3500 hits and a 312 average. He's a hall of famer regardless of position.

 

[boog204]

There'd be "shock" in the media, but I don't think most fans would be too surprised. I wouldn't. And that's got nothing to do with Jeter, it's just what this era of players has brought on themselves. Everybody is up for debate. Personally, I don't think players were all that clean over the preceding years, it's just that cheating became much more effective in recent years.

Jeter, Mo, Pedroia are the only three I can think of that would legitimately shock me and I think most fans would echo that sentiment. Everyone else, not so much...

 

[2north]

Jeter - Over 162 game season average in his career 14HR, 79 RBI .312 BA 109 K's
Monster stats, really? And this is playing with some of the best offensive players of his era on his team
Are these superstar stats or complementary player stats? You tell me.
What would stats have been with a crappy team and surrounded by bums? Just sayin.

By this absolutely ridiculous argument Pedroia is less than complimentary. His 162 averages are .302 BA, 16HR, 79 RBI through 8 years. And those will only go down as he gets older.

 

[Husky25]

Relax, Boog!! You're gonna hurt yourself. . At the end of the day, its just conversation. Jeter is a HoFer, probably on the 1st ballot. I am a Red Sox Fan and really like how Pedroia plays, but he doesn't know me or give a half a hoot about me. So for me to care so much these guys, at my age, does not make much sense anymore.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Yeah you should know that…..the midget ahead of Cano was right there with the worst!!! LOL

I have no idea what you mean