OT - A-Rod/Dempster

[UConn990411]

Wait, do people really still care that much about who cheated?

Every team had a bunch of juicers, largely because Major League Baseball implicitly endorsed steroid use in late '90s/early 2000s by blatantly turning a blind eye. I can't believe people still get this worked up about something that, by and large, is extremely prevalent yet completely ignored in other sports.

 

[Calhoun's Court]

I somewhat think this is due to that report that ARod and his clan incriminated other players. If remotely true that is as low as it gets and what Dempster did was what every pitcher could justify regardless of game situation. Papi did his share but isn't off being a total Ah*le and threatening to sue MLB and his team or ratting out other players.

As for Farrell and Dempster, they can't admit or suggest they were throwing at him -- that is isn't suspension time.

I'm going on what they both do on the field only. Both of their career numbers should be looked at with a raised eyebrow.

 

[tentoes4rings]

Wait, do people really still care that much about who cheated?

Every team had a bunch of juicers, largely because Major League Baseball implicitly endorsed steroid use in late '90s/early 2000s by blatantly turning a blind eye. I can't believe people still get this worked up about something that, by and large, is extremely prevalent yet completely ignored in other sports.

I agree that baseball is under much more scrutiny than the other sports now. Football players routinely get these 4 game suspensions and nobody thinks twice about it. I think the sport that never seems to be mentioned when it comes to PED usage is basketball, when in reality with their sometimes grueling schedules the need for recovery is that much greater. Also, the athleticism in the NBA is so supreme that a little help in speed, jumping ability could easily decide whether a fringe player enjoys a 12 year career or plays in Europe. I've attached a link to an article written on this below. It's just funny that the sport with the best and most conditioned athletes seems to completely fly under the radar.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/41666640

 

[tentoes4rings]

Ortiz promised "to get to the bottom" of his positive test in 2003. Well ten years later we're still waiting.... It's common knowlege that PED's can be taken in the off season and not detected by testing on season. Ortiz is someone whose bat is gaining speed with advancing age, right. Dempster should be throwing at him.

I don't think Ortiz's bat is speeding up, far from it. I remember when five or 6 years ago when he took one of the nastiest lefties in the league (former closer for Jays who blew his arm out) to dead center by turning around a 98 mph fastball like it was nothing. As almost all older players need to do, I think he cheats more now by committing earlier to the harder fastball and leaving himself a little more susceptible to softer stuff away. Anyone who watches his at bats on a regular basis and has through his Red Sox career will agree that his bat speed is not what it once was. I think he's just a much more selective and smarter hitter than he was before. If news came out that he was using PEDs I wouldn't be shocked, but his bat speed is certainly not increasing as he gets older.

 

[superjohn]

I'm getting tired of people trying to lump people like Papi together with a confirmed serial cheater like ARod. Papi has never failed an official test, only the test that was supposed to be anonymous in 2003. I'm not going to pretend he was clean his whole career but just because he's 37 and hitting for a high average doesn't indicate he's on PEDs. The guy has a whopping 24 home runs, if he was on PEDs he should ask for his money back. Alex Rodriguez has been linked to PEDs three times now and had Anthony Galea treating him at one point. Putting these two in the same discussion is ridiculous.

I can't stand ARod but it's a joke that anyone is trying to say Ortiz isn't a cheater. There was a whole juicing culture with the Red Sox, Lou Merloni said he was pressured by the organization to take steroids, Curt Schilling said the same and when that murderer Jared Remy was working as a parking lot security guard for the team he and his buddy were pinched for roids and Remy said Ortiz would openly talk about his steroid use.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

And I like you too FLA but you are a typical ignorant Sox fan when this comes up.......actually many agree with me and many even here. Obviously I have no proof but let's just go with he was on the list, they never gave a about him and his numbers never swayed until they went after everyone around 08-09, then magically he returned. His name hasn't been discussed as much as ARod because he's not Arod and he was entitled to sit back and pretend he knew nothing.....you're entitled to your opinion and I respect it but don't think I'll ever believe your guy should sniff the HOF if none of the others will....he is Manny Ramirez with a "mask"........

Well, for one, A-Rod admitted it. You don't remember his apology tour, where he went on and on about how ashamed he was, while he probably had a needle sticking out of his ass?

Showing up on the list in '03 means squadoosh, for both of them, for reasons I set out in another post and I don't have the energy to rehash. Also, you can try to equate the two all you want, but from what I've heard from publicly available sources and people in the know who move in MLB circles there's a freaking MOUNTAIN of evidence against A-Rod, and with Ortiz you've got what, the 2003 list where they can't tell them what they tested for and half the stuff that would trigger a positive test either (a) wasn't banned at the time or (b) you could buy at GNC? C'mon, .

The biggest problem, Mau, and maybe you don't see this as a Yankee fan, although I'd be shocked if you didn't, because the Yankee fans I know all concede this, is that Rodriguez is an inherently unlikable, sociopathic . He has zero friends in his clubhouse or any other. So when they chips are down those guys get it the worst. It's not rocket science.

I mean, for , look at your boy:

 

[tentoes4rings]

And I like you too FLA but you are a typical ignorant Sox fan when this comes up.......actually many agree with me and many even here. Obviously I have no proof but let's just go with he was on the list, they never gave a about him and his numbers never swayed until they went after everyone around 08-09, then magically he returned. His name hasn't been discussed as much as ARod because he's not Arod and he was entitled to sit back and pretend he knew nothing.....you're entitled to your opinion and I respect it but don't think I'll ever believe your guy should sniff the HOF if none of the others will....he is Manny Ramirez with a "mask"........

I guess neither of us is going to budge on this Mau, and I'll respect your opinion as well. As an intelligent poster though who like myself is clearly a big baseball fan I feel the need to hold you to a higher standard when you claim things like Varitek had to be juicing because he got huge and anyone who believes Papi is clean is ignorant. As with any argument on this board I'd like to see some substantiated evidence to take anyone seriously.

Quick side story on Papi. I am far from a Papi apologist by the way. He was down here in Ft Myers in April doing a 3 day rehab assignment. I went on day 2 and couldn't believe how much he and the staff went out of their way to route him in a golf course in a manner that fans couldn't get to him for an autograph. There were literally 20 people if not less, including some women and kids. He had 3 or 4 opportunities to sign, which would have taken all of 5 minutes I'm guessing. A group of about 8 of us waited outside near the exit to the parking lot, thinking he might stop and sign for us now that his "work" was done for the day. We waited outside for over an hour for his vehicle to come out. He was conveniently on his cell phone as his vehicle drove by and just sent out a lame little wave as they sped by. I know he does a lot of things in the community in Boston, particularly for kids, but his behavior that day definitely left a bad taste in my moth about him.

 

[tentoes4rings]

Well, for one, A-Rod admitted it. You don't remember his apology tour, where he went on and on about how ashamed he was, while he probably had a needle sticking out of his ass?

Showing up on the list in '03 means squadoosh, for both of them, for reasons I set out in another post and I don't have the energy to rehash. Also, you can try to equate the two all you want, but from what I've heard from publicly available sources and people in the know who move in MLB circles there's a freaking MOUNTAIN of evidence against A-Rod, and with Ortiz you've got what, the 2003 list where they can't tell them what they tested for and half the stuff that would trigger a positive test either (a) wasn't banned at the time or (b) you could buy at GNC? C'mon, .

The biggest problem, Mau, and maybe you don't see this as a Yankee fan, although I'd be shocked if you didn't, because the Yankee fans I know all concede this, is that Rodriguez is an inherently unlikable, sociopathic . He has zero friends in his clubhouse or any other. So when they chips are down those guys get it the worst. It's not rocket science.

I mean, for , look at your boy:

Big Ern, were you able to find any pictures of the 2 paintings he allegedly had with him as a centaur? I think Kate Hudson spilled the beans on those. I think it's hysterical if true that he not only had a self portrait of himself as a centaur but apparently felt one above his bed wasn't enough, lol. The biggest problem I have with the guy is how arrogant yet dumb he is. I love how he throws around the nicknames too like "Jete" and "Pet" like those guys are his boys. Last night he said a lot of his teammates told him to hit a bomb off Dempster to exact revenge, then he said EVERY teammate came up to him and told him that. Sure Alex, keep on living in that delusional world of yours. Unfortunately due to MLB's loophole he'll be able to have a significant effect on the playoff race, he has already.

 

[mauconnfan]

I guess neither of us is going to budge on this Mau, and I'll respect your opinion as well. As an intelligent poster though who like myself is clearly a big baseball fan I feel the need to hold you to a higher standard when you claim things like Varitek had to be juicing because he got huge and anyone who believes Papi is clean is ignorant. As with any argument on this board I'd like to see some substantiated evidence to take anyone seriously.

Quick side story on Papi. I am far from a Papi apologist by the way. He was down here in Ft Myers in April doing a 3 day rehab assignment. I went on day 2 and couldn't believe how much he and the staff went out of their way to route him in a golf course in a manner that fans couldn't get to him for an autograph. There were literally 20 people if not less, including some women and kids. He had 3 or 4 opportunities to sign, which would have taken all of 5 minutes I'm guessing. A group of about 8 of us waited outside near the exit to the parking lot, thinking he might stop and sign for us now that his "work" was done for the day. We waited outside for over an hour for his vehicle to come out. He was conveniently on his cell phone as his vehicle drove by and just sent out a lame little wave as they sped by. I know he does a lot of things in the community in Boston, particularly for kids, but his behavior that day definitely left a bad taste in my moth about him.

Interesting story for such a "lovable" guy........they all have those stories now. The days of autographs for our kids left when I was a kid it seems although having said that, there are a few good one's too just a lot fewer!

I don't mean to say your "ignorant" as a poster or person by the way, just a Sox fan thing I guess LOL.........we're all fans I get it.

 

[Edward Sargent]

I'm far from the biggest baseball fan, or A-Rod fan for that matter, but what Dempster did was cowardly to put it modestly. If you're self-important enough to feel like you have to send some sort of "message" fine, but it's pretty universally accepted that you don't throw at a guys knee, which he did.

Also, the umpire's decision to issue a warning after the fourth pitch directed at A-Rod was disgraceful. Honestly, pitchers trying to prove their manhood by jeopardizing another man's health, in addition to the guy on their team who is going to be pinned as the sacrificial lamb, really rubs me the wrong way. These bean-ball wars have been going on in baseball for as long as I've been watching the sport, and probably much longer, and the fact that Selig hasn't put an end to it is a real stain on his legacy, IMO. Let's not wait for somebody to be seriously injured in one of these to put a s top to it. It's cowardly in every sense of the word, especially in the American League when somebody else on the team is going to have to take the bullet for you, not to mention putting a free runner on in the thick of a pennant race is never a good idea. Ryan Dempster, grow a pair, and try to get your ERA below 4.5 before you get too brave next time.

If it was Bob Feller dentists would still be extracting the ball from his mouth!

 

[jibsey]

There are no angels in this but , here's the difference between AROD and Papi, AROD stood in front of cameras some time ago and said he took PED's when he was outed, Papi no. AROD whether you hate him or not does not cry like a baby to umpires on every called strike or punchout, and yesterday he took the HBP without emotion (his manager went crazy). One other thing, I have less respect for Dempster and Farrell than AROD for not owning up because they could have just said "you saw what you saw" and owned it without openly admitting it. I think Girardi said something like "there will be other games", which says that they will retaliate.

 

[boog204]

The Yanks will definitely retaliate... They couldn't afford to yesterday given that the game was too close and our pitching is too inconsistent to be playing around w/ free baserunners. But I can guarantee that Elsbury, Pedroia, or Ortiz will take one in the back from a starter other than Pettitte or Kuroda or in the head if Girardi is dumb enough ever to put Joba in the game.

ARod is an unquestionable . But he's a different type than say Barry Bonds. Bonds was hated b/c he was just an a plain and simple. You knew exactly where he stood. Surly, mean spirited, arrogant and selfish. People hate ARod b/c he is so phony and tries to paint himself as one of the boys. Every little thing he does is fake. I (and I think baseball) would hate him less if he just went into Bonds mode and just was an ass.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Maybe, but hockey fighting is beyond stupid. There is no fighting in college or International leagues and it doesn't affect the quality of play. It's a US created thing like people enjoying NASCAR crashes.

I agree. That's the reason Olympic Hockey is so much better Oddly, j am a NASCAR fan but I don't watch for crashes.

 

[jibsey]

The Yanks will definitely retaliate... They couldn't afford to yesterday given that the game was too close and our pitching is too inconsistent to be playing around w/ free baserunners. But I can guarantee that Elsbury, Pedroia, or Ortiz will take one in the back from a starter other than Pettitte or Kuroda or in the head if Girardi is dumb enough ever to put Joba in the game.

ARod is an unquestionable . But he's a different type than say Barry Bonds. Bonds was hated b/c he was just an a plain and simple. You knew exactly where he stood. Surly, mean spirited, arrogant and selfish. People hate ARod b/c he is so phony and tries to paint himself as one of the boys. Every little thing he does is fake. I (and I think baseball) would hate him less if he just went into Bonds mode and just was an ass.

I hear the phony thing all the time, but most of the people saying it are jealous of the attention and money, and how do fans throw that label out without actually meeting him? He's polite in interviews so he's phony? During his recent minor league rehab, young players he worked with were extremely complimentary, so my point is that we don't really know these guys and the seemingly nicest ones can in fact be scum and vice versa.

 

[Gurleyman]

Hitting batters has been in the game since it began. So be it.

But, it doesn't matter if the batter is Pol Pot, you have to toss the pitcher if he needs four pitches to nail a guy.

It was awfully self-aggrandizing as well - or at least the idea was. The execution was a tad embarrassing.

Hey - Fishy used Pol Pot as his go to evil mass-murderer for a joke and I missed it. Serves me right for spending a Sunday at the zoo.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

ARod has never failed an official test either; he was on the "anonymous" list along with Papi.

A-Rod tested positive for testosterone and Primobolan and has admitted as much.

 

[Fishy]

Hey - Fishy used Pol Pot as his go to evil mass-murderer for a joke and I missed it. Serves me right for spending a Sunday at the zoo.

Right after I posted that, I pointed towards the west coast and made one of those chest-thumping gestures.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I can't stand ARod but it's a joke that anyone is trying to say Ortiz isn't a cheater. There was a whole juicing culture with the Red Sox, Lou Merloni said he was pressured by the organization to take steroids, Curt Schilling said the same and when that murderer Jared Remy was working as a parking lot security guard for the team he and his buddy were pinched for roids and Remy said Ortiz would openly talk about his steroid use.

As the saying goes John, why let the truth get in the way of a good story? Here is the quote you're referring to allegedly about Ortiz openly talking about his steroid use "The two workers told the Red Sox and Major League Baseball that they knew of no steroid use by players, but Remy told the Spotlight Team a former aide to David Ortiz had talked openly about his own steroid use while the former aide and Remy were at Gold’s Gym on Lansdowne Street." Please at least put a little effort in if you're going to blatantly misstate an allegation.

Merloni discussed one meeting where a doctor allegedly spoke to the team about the proper way to use steroids. He never said anything about being personally pressured to use them. He later backtracked somewhat on his comments and couldn't remember the date of the meeting or the doctor's name.

Schilling has always been a windbag who likes to hear himself talk and bankrupt states. As someone once said he was a "horse every 5 days and a horse's ass every other day". He said it was "former members" of the Red Sox organization who are no longer there suggested PEDs over shoulder surgery.

I'm not suggesting that there's no merit to Merloni and Schilling's comments but holes can certainly be poked in both. So you just cited 3 examples to prove there was a "juicing culture" with the Red Sox. One I disproved by providing the right quote and the other two are somewhat weak as well. Your statements remind me of that game telephone where one kid whispers something in another's ear, and this goes around in a circle until the final story doesn't even resemble the original story. It won't kill you to put a little effort in to find quotes or links to stories you're using to try to paint a very negative picture of an organization.

 

[jibsey]

It seems Manny was a one man juicing culture for 2 world championships. Would I bet my life that he was the only one?

 

[superjohn]

As the saying goes John, why let the truth get in the way of a good story? Here is the quote you're referring to allegedly about Ortiz openly talking about his steroid use "The two workers told the Red Sox and Major League Baseball that they knew of no steroid use by players, but Remy told the Spotlight Team a former aide to David Ortiz had talked openly about his own steroid use while the former aide and Remy were at Gold’s Gym on Lansdowne Street." Please at least put a little effort in if you're going to blatantly misstate an allegation.

Merloni discussed one meeting where a doctor allegedly spoke to the team about the proper way to use steroids. He never said anything about being personally pressured to use them. He later backtracked somewhat on his comments and couldn't remember the date of the meeting or the doctor's name.

Schilling has always been a windbag who likes to hear himself talk and bankrupt states. As someone once said he was a "horse every 5 days and a horse's ass every other day". He said it was "former members" of the Red Sox organization who are no longer there suggested PEDs over shoulder surgery.

I'm not suggesting that there's no merit to Merloni and Schilling's comments but holes can certainly be poked in both. So you just cited 3 examples to prove there was a "juicing culture" with the Red Sox. One I disproved by providing the right quote and the other two are somewhat weak as well. Your statements remind me of that game telephone where one kid whispers something in another's ear, and this goes around in a circle until the final story doesn't even resemble the original story. It won't kill you to put a little effort in to find quotes or links to stories you're using to try to paint a very negative picture of an organization.

I'll admit I had the Remy Ortiz quote wrong I was going off of memory on an article I read a long time ago. It's pretty clear you are trying to dismiss what Merloni and Schilling said, I thought they were pretty explosive revelations. Do you also think Manny was taking anti-fertility drugs to stop his pregnancy? Gabe Kapler and Trot Nixon certainly didn't look like steroid candidates. The most shocking thing was that George Mitchell didn't find a single Red Sox player to be using when he was commissioned with his report and he focused in on many Yankees, I'm sure it has nothing to do with Mitchell being a director of the Red Sox, no conflict of interest there. Yes the Red Sox had a steroid culture like the rest of the teams in major league baseball had a steroid culture.

 

[mauconnfan]

OMG how could we forget the original juicer in Gabe Kapler.....no not Gabe!!

 

[tentoes4rings]

OMG how could we forget the original juicer in Gabe Kapler.....no not Gabe!!

I'll see your Kapler and raise you a Jason Giambi.

 

[tentoes4rings]

I'll admit I had the Remy Ortiz quote wrong I was going off of memory on an article I read a long time ago. It's pretty clear you are trying to dismiss what Merloni and Schilling said, I thought they were pretty explosive revelations. Do you also think Manny was taking anti-fertility drugs to stop his pregnancy? Gabe Kapler and Trot Nixon certainly didn't look like steroid candidates. The most shocking thing was that George Mitchell didn't find a single Red Sox player to be using when he was commissioned with his report and he focused in on many Yankees, I'm sure it has nothing to do with Mitchell being a director of the Red Sox, no conflict of interest there. Yes the Red Sox had a steroid culture like the rest of the teams in major league baseball had a steroid culture.

I've admitted to Nixon, Kapler was big long before he came to the Sox so I wouldn't blame the Red Sox at all for whatever he did or didn't do. I'll agree that the Red Sox steroid abuse was probably commensurate with the rest of the teams in the league. Let's face it, any team that didn't have it's share would have had no chance of competing unfortunately during that period.

 

[The Viking]

The Yanks will definitely retaliate... They couldn't afford to yesterday given that the game was too close and our pitching is too inconsistent to be playing around w/ free baserunners. But I can guarantee that Elsbury, Pedroia, or Ortiz will take one in the back from a starter other than Pettitte or Kuroda or in the head if Girardi is dumb enough ever to put Joba in the game.

ARod is an unquestionable . But he's a different type than say Barry Bonds. Bonds was hated b/c he was just an a plain and simple. You knew exactly where he stood. Surly, mean spirited, arrogant and selfish. People hate ARod b/c he is so phony and tries to paint himself as one of the boys. Every little thing he does is fake. I (and I think baseball) would hate him less if he just went into Bonds mode and just was an ass.

I would say A-Rod was hated by many before he was allegedly a rat. I'd say now 95% of the players now despise him, and that probably includes many of his own teammates.

 

[The Viking]

There are no angels in this but , here's the difference between AROD and Papi, AROD stood in front of cameras some time ago and said he took PED's when he was outed, Papi no. AROD whether you hate him or not does not cry like a baby to umpires on every called strike or punchout, and yesterday he took the HBP without emotion (his manager went crazy). One other thing, I have less respect for Dempster and Farrell than AROD for not owning up because they could have just said "you saw what you saw" and owned it without openly admitting it. I think Girardi said something like "there will be other games", which says that they will retaliate.

What planet have you been on lately? A-Rod is the biggest clown in the sport, there is no one who is on his level. Especially Dempster and Farrell.
I hate to break this to you but I'll bet there were several NY players who were thrilled with A-Rod getting plunked in the ribs, and you know that Cervelli, Cashman and Levine were loving the hell out of it..as were the millions of NY fans who were just recently praying NY would somehow find a way to cut ties with him. The guy is threatening to sue the team that he is playing for. It's a circus. The GM doesn't even want to talk to him.
There is NO ONE comparable to A-Rod.