Ortiz locks up HOF

[UConn990411]

Ortiz should be a HOFer (so too should Edgar Martinez), but unfortunately for him there's a slew of old school, holier than thou baseball writers who just won't vote for a Dan Hurley. Throw in the whole steroids thing (it's pretty reasonable to assume did 'em at some point, even if he isn't juicing now) and I don't see him making the cut.

I absolutely hate the argument that DHs shouldn't make it to the Hall, though. Regardless of where you come down on the issue, the Dan Hurley spot is a legitimate position in baseball ... and Ortiz is the best or second best that position has ever seen. Between that and his playoff resume, he probably belongs in the HOF.

 

[Jerry1714]

The steroids stick is going to knock Ortiz out of any HOF consideration.

I mean, come on now...

He supposedly ended up on the infamous 2003 'list' and that's when he conveniently started whacking 40+ home runs a year - the guy is a nothing until he ends up in the Boston pharmacy at age 28.

He left Minnesota at 26 and hit 20 HRs his last year there. 30 his first year in Boston, batting behind the best hitter in the game at the time which helps, a lot.

No doubt he did fail a test so I am no arguing he is completely clean, but the contention that he was nothing before Boston and would be nothing without riods is uniformed.

 

[Dogdeacon]

In the conversation but easily? Has Ortiz won back to back rings on 2 different teams, Manny was the straw that stirred the drink on the Sox 2 title teams. Manny is more comparable to Reggie then Ortiz is.

I posted that without looking up a single stat, just a feeling based on impression. With respect to Manny because Manny crashed and burned with both steroids and performance in an epic manner and meanwhile Ortiz remained consistent and prolific, Ortiz has been lifted as the face of the Red Sox since 2004.

Ortiz's & Jackson's stats are remarkably similar in both quality and quantity. I think that's why for generations that didn't witness Reggie's heroics, Ortiz is the face of postseason clutch. But Reggie has more World Series games which at the time were more the definition of "October". Reggie also has more postseason HR's and way more World Series HR's, so in retrospect Reggie retains the title by unanimous decision.

 

[Scoe]

I posted that without looking up a single stat, just a feeling based on impression. With respect to Manny because Manny crashed and burned with both steroids and performance in an epic manner and meanwhile Ortiz remained consistent and prolific, Ortiz has been lifted as the face of the Red Sox since 2004.

Ortiz's & Jackson's stats are remarkably similar in both quality and quantity. I think that's why for generations that didn't witness Reggie's heroics, Ortiz is the face of postseason clutch. But Reggie has more World Series games which at the time were more the definition of "October". Reggie also has more postseason HR's and way more World Series HR's, so in retrospect Reggie retains the title by unanimous decision.

Manny and Reggie are both s too, if Reggie were around in todays game everyone would hate him more now then they did in his playing days. Ortiz will always be more beloved for being a better person and teammate. Manny has always been a star since day one your relationship with the media does make a difference with the HOF.

 

[Husky25]

Ortiz failed the same test A-Rod did, the only one he failed. It is talked about repeatedly on any sports radio show. The test that was supposed to be anonymous. But A-Rods, Sosa, Ortiz and a couple others were leaked.

A-Rod admitted to taking performance enhancing drugs. A-Rod was also implicated in the Biogenesis scandal. Clemens was implicated in the MacNamee Scandal and by at least two of his former teammates. Bonds was implicated in the BALCO scandal, by a host of former athletes who used the Cream, and Clear and by the Lab's chief executive. Both Clemens and Bonds were formally indicted by the United States Congress.

How exactly does all of that compare to Ortiz?

Whether Ortiz gets into the Hall or not, he certainly has had his HOF moments. He's won the Edgar Martinez Award more times than Edgar Martinez. He's a 9 time All Star, a 5 time silver slugger winner, holds 3 records (Hits, RBIs and HRs) at his position and has been in the top 5 in MVP voting 5 times. He doesn't have a chance to cross traditional HOF Thresholds (3k hits, 500 HR), but his body of work, and penchant for the dramatic gets him some consideration.

 

[Husky25]

He left Minnesota at 26 and hit 20 HRs his last year there. 30 his first year in Boston, batting behind the best hitter in the game at the time which helps, a lot.

No doubt he did fail a test so I am no arguing he is completely clean, but the contention that he was nothing before Boston and would be nothing without riods is uniformed.

"...the Major League Baseball Players Association issued a statement[14] pointing out that because of several factors, any player appearing on the list compiled by the federal government in 2003 did not necessarily test positive for performance enhancing drugs. Among those factors were that the total number of players said to be on the list far exceeded the number of collected specimens that tested positive. In addition, there were questions raised regarding the lab that performed the testing and their interpretation of the positive tests. Also, the statement pointed out that certain legal supplements that were available over the counter at the time could possibly cause a positive test result."

 

[60'sfan]

David Ortiz has had an interesting career. I don't know is he ever took PED's but judging from his stats one could speculate that if he did, it happened in 2003 when he joined the Sox. At that time his power numbers began to improve. However, again looking at his numbers, he may have stopped in 2007 when his power numbers began to decline. In 2008, which was his worst year, if it wasn't for Terry Francona's encouragement, he might have been released. Something happened again in 2011. His average went up, his power numbers stayed about the same and his strikeouts were the lowest of his career. He came to spring training that year much lighter and was a better base runner. I think, like many players, David Ortiz made some mistakes but IMHO he has been clean for a number of years now, is a good team player and a great representative for the city of Boston. What sets him aside from the others is his flair for the dramatic. He is a great clutch hitter and makes my Hall of Fame easily.

 

[Husky25]

David Ortiz has had an interesting career. I don't know is he ever took PED's but judging from his stats one could speculate that if he did, it happened in 2003 when he joined the Sox. At that time his power numbers began to improve. However, again looking at his numbers, he may have stopped in 2007 when his power numbers began to decline. In 2008, which was his worst year, if it wasn't for Terry Francona's encouragement, he might have been released. Something happened again in 2011. His average went up, his power numbers stayed about the same and his strikeouts were the lowest of his career. He came to spring training that year much lighter and was a better base runner. I think, like many players, David Ortiz made some mistakes but IMHO he has been clean for a number of years now, is a good team player and a great representative for the city of Boston. What sets him aside from the others is his flair for the dramatic. He is a great clutch hitter and makes my Hall of Fame easily.

Or his improvement are a result of tireless work with Ron "Papa Jack" Jackson, Ortiz's first hitting coach with Boston. It was commonly speculated that Ortiz had a hole in his swing (under the hands), which went undetected in Minnesota. Also, Ortiz had many an injury attributable to the AstroTurf at the HomerDome while Ortiz was there.

During my tenure here in Boston, I was proud to be part of one of the most explosive offenses in baseball and Red Sox history. I am happy to say I was part of that. One of the most memorable things in Boston for me was working with the world-class hitters on this club, especially David Ortiz. Working with David and watching him train every day to develop into the player that he is today is something I will remember forever.

I am sure that Terry's decision to move in a different direction without me is part of the logical plan to help the team get back on track to another World Series which the fans, the guys on the team, and the whole organization deserve.

 

[zyron]

A-Rod admitted to taking performance enhancing drugs. A-Rod was also implicated in the Biogenesis scandal. Clemens was implicated in the MacNamee Scandal and by at least two of his former teammates. Bonds was implicated in the BALCO scandal, by a host of former athletes who used the Cream, and Clear and by the Lab's chief executive. Both Clemens and Bonds were formally indicted by the United States Congress.

How exactly does all of that compare to Ortiz?

Whether Ortiz gets into the Hall or not, he certainly has had his HOF moments. He's won the Edgar Martinez Award more times than Edgar Martinez. He's a 9 time All Star, a 5 time silver slugger winner, holds 3 records (Hits, RBIs and HRs) at his position and has been in the top 5 in MVP voting 5 times. He doesn't have a chance to cross traditional HOF Thresholds (3k hits, 500 HR), but his body of work, and penchant for the dramatic gets him some consideration.

Because he failed the exact same test that they did.

 

[Husky25]

Because he failed the exact same test that they did.

What test that who took? I'm not implicating these players because of the 2003 100 person list. A-Rod admitted it. Clemens = MacNamee Scandal + Pettitte accusation+ Knoblach accusation + Canseco Accusation. Bonds = BALCO Scandal + take your pick. Read my post 3 up from here. Whoever tested positive in 2003 did not necessarily test positive for banned PEDs.

I'm not saying Ortiz did not take PED's, but there is enough doubt both ways that it could in fact go either way. I am of the opinion that Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in the Hall. They also deserve to have a big fat asterisk indicating their "suspected" involvement and role they partook in the Steroid Era. Same with a number of quality players from 1993-present.

 

[Dogdeacon]

A-Rod admitted to taking performance enhancing drugs. A-Rod was also implicated in the Biogenesis scandal. Clemens was implicated in the MacNamee Scandal and by at least two of his former teammates. Bonds was implicated in the BALCO scandal, by a host of former athletes who used the Cream, and Clear and by the Lab's chief executive. Both Clemens and Bonds were formally indicted by the United States Congress.

How exactly does all of that compare to Ortiz?

Whether Ortiz gets into the Hall or not, he certainly has had his HOF moments. He's won the Edgar Martinez Award more times than Edgar Martinez. He's a 9 time All Star, a 5 time silver slugger winner, holds 3 records (Hits, RBIs and HRs) at his position and has been in the top 5 in MVP voting 5 times. He doesn't have a chance to cross traditional HOF Thresholds (3k hits, 500 HR), but his body of work, and penchant for the dramatic gets him some consideration.

Good points, again I reject the need to measure a guy's greatness based on HOF as if it is a guilty or not guilty verdict.

With respect to PED's there are really very few Most Wanted Poster bad guys. Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Canseco, Palmiero, Clemens and ARod are way out there as primary culprits.
After that a second but still very serious level of guys suspended from games, notable names include; Manny, Giambi, Braun, Tejada, Cabrera etc..
Then a 3rd level of admitted or known users but never suspended including; Petite, Brady Anderson, Ivan Rodriguez. With this group depending on the quality of their confessions or denials most people are willing to look past that. Probably no HOF quality guys on that list, but again who cares.

So Ortiz is in a 4th tier, guys with one rumor or alleged positive test, but nothing more. No question this is different than totally clean guys and could be a big obstacle for a borderline HOF case. But Ortiz isn't out of consideration like the first two groups and ultimately one or two 'maybe' steroid guys will get in before Ortiz is even eligible and at that point he's in a class of player that is not excluded, just loses a few silly votes.

 

[temery]

True, but the HOF might as well close if they plan to keep such players out.

Let Rose and of the rest of them in, and include their full, but accurate bio.

The steroids stick is going to knock Ortiz out of any HOF consideration.

I mean, come on now...

He supposedly ended up on the infamous 2003 'list' and that's when he conveniently started whacking 40+ home runs a year - the guy is a nothing until he ends up in the Boston pharmacy at age 28.

 

[G0UCONN]

No hitter in my life has come close to Ortiz in terms of big hits in October...no one.

Will end with most hits for Dan Hurley and 450 HRs.

No fair to say DHs are out...though they have to do what Ortiz did to overcome it. Are closers out?

Steroid issue aside...which means no one basically gets in any more....He is in.

 

[Fishy]

Let me know when the steroid kids start getting in the Hall of Fame.

Until then, Ortiz is in the Hall of Guys Whose Heads Inexplicably Started to Grow Really Huge in Their Late 20's.

 

[Husky25]

Let me know when the steroid kids start getting in the Hall of Fame.

Until then, Ortiz is in the Hall of Guys Whose Heads Inexplicably Started to Grow Really Huge in Their Late 20's.

Ortiz has always been a big guy.

 

[Husky25]

What will it take to get Joe Buck and Tim McCarver to stop stroking Justin Verlander.

 

[StoweD210]

What will it take to get Joe Buck and Tim McCarver to stop stroking Justin Verlander.

A restraining order?

 

[Husky25]

A restraining order?

Not likely. Have you seen where the booth is in relation to the pitcher's mound at Comerica? Well over 100 ft.

On a side note, what a phenominal pitching performance on both sides. Lackey was in 2002 form.

 

[Scoe]

The guy is/was a borderline case with arguments both ways ..... (Not even counting the steroid questions and voters who may not count him)

Think he locked it up last night with the grand slam in that spot....just an off the charts postseason performer. He is a walking Disney sports movie....

 

[zyron]

I'm not saying Ortiz did not take PED's, but there is enough doubt both ways that it could in fact go either way. I am of the opinion that Clemens and Bonds deserve to be in the Hall. They also deserve to have a big fat asterisk indicating their "suspected" involvement and role they partook in the Steroid Era. Same with a number of quality players from 1993-present.

Oh look what was recently posted on Yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-b...ain-tigers-jhonny-peralta-153829758--mlb.html

 

[Husky25]

Oh look what was recently posted on Yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-b...ain-tigers-jhonny-peralta-153829758--mlb.html

What are you getting at? Do you think Peralta is a HOF candidate? I never said word one about Peralta. In fact (and you quote me) I said that suspected and confirmed users deserve to be in the Hall, with an explanation of their involvement in the Era. The HOF is a museum of baseball. These emphysema having coffee addicted holier than thou baseball writers are the keepers at the gate. How much speed do they take to meet a deadline?

 

[mauconnfan]

Red Sox fans are delusional, really really fn delusional!! LOL................the numbers jump out SCREAMING Manny and Papi juicing but there is doubt in their minds somehow!! funny !! hahahaha

2003 he suddenly goes from a hefty bag field to PAPI the slugger but there's still doubt in their minds........way too funny guys!!

Oh yeah then maybe ARod has an argument too!!

 

[mauconnfan]

What are you getting at? Do you think Peralta is a HOF candidate? I never said word one about Peralta. In fact (and you quote me) I said that suspected and confirmed users deserve to be in the Hall, with an explanation of their involvement in the Era. The HOF is a museum of baseball. These emphysema having coffee addicted holier than thou baseball writers are the keepers at the gate. How much speed do they take to meet a deadline?

How about grabbing a glove and wearing it to catch something then he's a given for the hall. Their not holier than thou they just believe you need to be a baseball player not a guy eating hot dogs while your teammates are making plays......the guy has been a great hitter since he juiced, a really clutch hitter but he's a Dan Hurley........there's no room yet in Cooperstown for Dan Hurley's

 

[Husky25]

How about grabbing a glove and wearing it to catch something then he's a given for the hall. Their not holier than thou they just believe you need to be a baseball player not a guy eating hot dogs while your teammates are making plays......the guy has been a great hitter since he juiced, a really clutch hitter but he's a Dan Hurley........there's no room yet in Cooperstown for Dan Hurley's

Not denying he is primarily a Dan Hurley, but they only season in his career where Ortiz has not played in the field was 2008. He got hurt that year as well and did not play a full season.

The Dan Hurley has been a bona fide position for 40 years and the members of the BBWAA are not holier than thou because they won't vote in a Dan Hurley Primary. They are holier than thou because they are arbitrarily omitting 17 years from a museum of baseball history based on largely circumstantial evidence.

 

[Husky25]

Red Sox fans are delusional, really really fn delusional!! LOL................the numbers jump out SCREAMING Manny and Papi juicing but there is doubt in their minds somehow!! funny !! hahahaha

2003 he suddenly goes from a hefty bag field to PAPI the slugger but there's still doubt in their minds........way too funny guys!!

Oh yeah then maybe ARod has an argument too!!

A-ROD admitted use. Manny not only may have been on the 2003 list but has been suspended twice directly because of PEDs. Ortiz was also on the list, but has not been implicated by any other means. Is he guilty? Possibly. Perhaps probably. Doesn't change the fact that evidence against him is circumstantial.