On the "need" for big (ie. tall) post players

[PacoSwede]

3 players outside the 3 pt arc and 1 player above the foul line is another reason why offensive rebounding is not great.

what's the excuse for not corralling rebounds on defense, as was seen excessively in some games (teammates should get some tips from nika in this regard)

 

[01Neaggrad02]

Is it wrong to wish for a Center that is tall like Kara, as talented as Tina, with a whole lot of Steph thrown in for good measure? Or a big that could play like Lauren Jackson....

 

[Alydar]

Since Morgan Tuck : Gabby Williams at 5'11" played the 5 position at AA level and was a capable scorer.
Napheesa Collier at 6'2" )( allegedly) played the 5 position for UCONN at an AA level & and was a very capable scorer.
Megan Walker at 6'1' played the 4 position for UCONN at an AA level was a very capable scorer.

Do you think that either Collier or Williams would have had major success against Boston?

 

[Bone Dog]

Its not just about Boston, or any other 5 for that matter, taken in isolation. It’s Boston and Saxton and Amihere and Cardoso — the whole set. How does our whole set match up with them? We will be outplayed by Boston and Cardoso at the 5 and we will pound them at the 4. If the 4 playing next to Boston is muscled out of position, her effectiveness will be reduced too. I’ve said this before but I really think Aaliyah and Ayanna and Ice will do exactly that. And if Saxton and Amihere are not free to help on Caroline and Lou at the 3… well, you can see how it snowballs.

 

[CocoHusky]

Do you think that either Collier or Williams would have had major success against Boston?

I do. As good a player as Boston is I do not consider her a better player than A'ja Wilson. Gabby and Napheesa had "major success" not only guarding A'ja Wilson but many other quality post players. With Boston you have to attack and defend her with quickness.

 

[Alydar]

Aayliah is a ‘Beast’—>sometimes.
Sometimes- not so much.
I’m hoping last year’s 2nd half trajectory continues.

Brady will take some of the physicality off of Edward's back. And Edwards' hard work ethic will be a great role model for Brady as a freshman.
Sometimes players commit fouls because the coach wants them to be aggressive. With the apparent depth UConn will have it won't be as important for both Edwards and Mühl to stay out of foul trouble. Of course this assumes that the freshmen can contribute.

=====================================================

Is it wrong to wish for a Center that is tall like Kara, as talented as Tina, with a whole lot of Steph thrown in for good measure? Or a big that could play like Lauren Jackson....

Listening to the lyrics, it's enlightening how female roles have evolved in my lifetime.

 

[Bone Dog]

Boston is not stronger than Aaliyah or Ice or Ayanna. She is probably stronger than Amari and Dorka. She is also quicker than Amari and Dorka, and probably Ice and Aaliyah too. She worked on that before last season. But what she mainly is with respect to all of them is way more decisive on both O and D. She has better post moves and she boxes out really well. This is what being a senior does for you. Cardoso doesn’t have these advantages, though she’s no slouch either. This is why we can only really hope to limit her, not stop her completely. She’ll get a double-double against us. Count on it.

But I think we can shut out the others and maybe even make their guards have to help in the lane. That’s our key, challenge SC’s bigs enough to allow our 1-3 to torch them from the perimeter.

 

[BobbyJ]

Boston is not stronger than Aaliyah or Ice or Ayanna. She is probably stronger than Amari and Dorka. She is also quicker than Amari and Dorka, and probably Ice and Aaliyah too. She worked on that before last season. But what she mainly is with respect to all of them is way more decisive on both O and D. She has better post moves and she boxes out really well. This is what being a senior does for you. Cardoso doesn’t have these advantages, though she’s no slouch either. This is why we can only really hope to limit her, not stop her completely. She’ll get a double-double against us. Count on it.

But I think we can shut out the others and maybe even make their guards have to help in the lane. That’s our key, challenge SC’s bigs enough to allow our 1-3 to torch them from the perimeter.

IMO, this is the key to her offense. She doesn't have much for moves or any kind of turnaround jumper. What she understands is that the hardest place to guard someone is right up in your face. She seals, catches, uses a drop step and puts her shoulder right up into the defender's chin. She either draws their contact for a foul or the defender steps back and she gets the 5 footer. It's good technique to teach but not many post players like the constant contact or have the body to initiate it. They tend to try to avoid it and that's why Juhasz isn't very effective in the offensive post. But I think there's a chance that both Brady and Patterson might be willing and able. We'll see.

 

[Alydar]

I do. As good a player as Boston is I do not consider her a better player than A'ja Wilson. Gabby and Napheesa had "major success" not only guarding A'ja Wilson but many other quality post players. With Boston you have to attack and defend her with quickness.

And when she knocks you on your ass for the 12th time you won't be so quick.
I guess my point is that Boston is a true center, like Kalani Brown. I don't remember Brown being either quick or having an outside game but no 6'+/- was going to defend her on the low post.

When Collier had to play against Brown without Williams in 2019, Baylor won 68-59 and while Collier had 16 pts (on18 shots) & 11 rebounds, she allowed Brown to put up 22 pts & 17 rebounds.

Baylor 68-57 UConn (Jan 3, 2019) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Baylor Bears vs. UConn Huskies NCAAW game, final score 68-57, from January 3, 2019 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

 

[hoophuskee]

Is it wrong to wish for a Center that is tall like Kara, as talented as Tina, with a whole lot of Steph thrown in for good measure? Or a big that could play like Lauren Jackson....

I prefer Stewart over any of them. Though all your picks are excellent ones too.

 

[Bone Dog]

I prefer Stewart over any of them. Though all your picks are excellent ones too.

I agree. Stewie’s first year, she had Steph next to her. But later she showed how the Huskies could win without a big center if she was the 4.

 

[UHF]

what's the excuse for not corralling rebounds on defense, as was seen excessively in some games (teammates should get some tips from nika in this regard)

Ask Geno. Good luck getting a straight answer without getting blasted with sarcastic insults.



Last few years there were no players of the caliber of Gabby Williams, Napheesa Collier, Stefanie Dolson, Tina Charles, or Maya Moore on the UConn rosters to rebound on defense or offense.

 

[HopJim]

Two points:
-While I am a tranditionalist who loves having a big 5 on the team like a Dolson (or better yet a mobile big like Stewie), I doubt we would have much of this conversation without Boston's dominating first half in the championship last year. In the second half, things were coming under control, and we cut the lead to 7. With a full game of decent rebounding, who knows what the outcome would have been?
-I watched this game again and feel much of our early game rebounding issues resulted from our guard defense. SC continually drove past their defender, the UConn Bigs came out to help, and when the shot missed, there were no Huskies in position to rebound. Just having more height would not have solved the issues we created for ourselves the 1st half. I doubt Geno would let this happen again so happy with the balance of shooting, size and athleticism we will have this year.

 

[CocoHusky]

And when she knocks you on your ass for the 12th time you won't be so quick.
I guess my point is that Boston is a true center, like Kalani Brown. I don't remember Brown being either quick or having an outside game but no 6'+/- was going to defend her on the low post. When Collier had to play against Brown without Williams in 2019, Baylor won 68-59 and while Collier had 16 pts (on18 shots) & 11 rebounds, she allowed Brown to put up 22 pts & 17 rebounds.

Baylor 68-57 UConn (Jan 3, 2019) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Baylor Bears vs. UConn Huskies NCAAW game, final score 68-57, from January 3, 2019 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

Way to bury the headline! When Napheesa was matched up against Brown in the 2019 game you mentioned Brown got plenty of help in the form of NyLyssa Smith and Lauren Cox. Napheesa held her own to the tune of 16 Points and 11 rebounds. It was Megan Walker and ONO who came up small to the tune of 2 rebounds combined for UCONN on the defensive end and the inaccurate shooting of Cyrstal Dangerfield and KLS (8 for 34) on the offensive side that ultimately doomed UCONN . It was particular Smith for who UCONN had no answer. Smith came off the bench and gave Baylor 12 Points and 6 rebounds in only 12 minutes.

 

[UHF]

Way to bury the headline! When Napheesa was matched up against Brown in the 2019 game you mentioned Brown got plenty of help in the form of NyLyssa Smith and Lauren Cox. Napheesa held her own to the tune of 16 Points and 11 rebounds. It was Megan Walker and ONO who came up small to the tune of 2 rebounds combined for UCONN on the defensive end and the inaccurate shooting of Cyrstal Dangerfield and KLS (8 for 34) on the offensive side that ultimately doomed UCONN . It was particular Smith for who UCONN had no answer. Smith came off the bench and gave Baylor 12 Points and 6 rebounds in only 12 minutes.

Not disagreeing at all. Just commenting.

Surprised that Megan Walker was voted All American. Do not remember Walker playing anywhere near Gabby Williams level in big time national TV games.

KLS shot 47.5% from 3PT as a junior. After her ankle surgery, KLS shot 37.6% from 3PT as a senior. Unable to get sufficient lift on her jump shots? Rebounds per game increased from 4.5 to 6.3, which might be explained by positioning and boxing out.

 

[Alydar]

Way to bury the headline! When Napheesa was matched up against Brown in the 2019 game you mentioned Brown got plenty of help in the form of NyLyssa Smith and Lauren Cox. Napheesa held her own to the tune of 16 Points and 11 rebounds. It was Megan Walker and ONO who came up small to the tune of 2 rebounds combined for UCONN on the defensive end and the inaccurate shooting of Cyrstal Dangerfield and KLS (8 for 34) on the offensive side that ultimately doomed UCONN . It was particular Smith for who UCONN had no answer. Smith came off the bench and gave Baylor 12 Points and 6 rebounds in only 12 minutes.

It took a while before I could read this, the post was spinning too fast to see.

You almost made me believe that the game was decided by 2 freshmen non-starters. UConn shot 29% and that's why they lost. They only had 9 2pt fgs. Collier made 6 of them but she was 6-14 from 2. All her slick low post moves were ineffective against a true center.

This isn't about why UConn lost. This is a discussion of Collier's ability to play the 5 and the bottom line is that Brown ruled her that day as much if not more than Boston dominated a one-legged ONO.

 

[CocoHusky]

It took a while before I could read this, the post was spinning too fast to see.

You almost made me believe that the game was decided by 2 freshmen non-starters. UConn shot 29% and that's why they lost. They only had 9 2pt fgs. Collier made 6 of them but she was 6-14 from 2. All her slick low post moves were ineffective against a true center.

This isn't about why UConn lost. This is a discussion of Collier's ability to play the 5 and the bottom line is that Brown ruled her that day as much if not more than Boston dominated a one-legged ONO.

Your over the top hyperbole is distracting from your somewhat valid point. Granted Gabby Williams, Napheesa Collier and Megan walker did not have the ideal height or bulk to play the post position for UCONN. Despite lacking ideal height and the required bulk these three players managed to become AAs while playing the post for UCONN. I’d forgotten to send Brown a note of congrats for “owning” Napheesa in this one game. Do you happen to know which WNBA team Kalani is suiting up for this season? Nobody ever owned Napheesa Collier-just stop it!

 

[Alydar]

I think WNBA posts about non-UConn players belong on the other board.

 

[hoophuskee]

Ask Geno. Good luck getting a straight answer without getting blasted with sarcastic insults.



Last few years there were no players of the caliber of Gabby Williams, Napheesa Collier, Stefanie Dolson, Tina Charles, or Maya Moore on the UConn rosters to rebound on defense or offense.

And as a result, we should've been so proud of this team, right? For what they were able to achieve despite all the injuries?

I guess in a way we can say- Good luck getting any type of appreciation with that without getting blasted with sarcastic insults, right?

 

[ctchamps]

South Carolina goes by UofSC and not SC so if we need to be technical we probably should be technically correct don’t ya think.

 

[Bone Dog]

Only folks outside of SC call the university SC. South Carolinians call it USC. In Maryland, locals cal the university UM, not the initials, just the sound: ummmm.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

I always want us to recruit height too. But the key to the losses in the tournament has not been our height but it has been guard play. Our inability to shut down small quick athletic guards have been our down fall. 2017 Morgan Williams (Miss St). 2018-19 Arike Ogunbowale (Notre Dame), 2021 Ari McDonald (Arizona) and 2022 Destanni Henderson (South Carolina). All are quick small athletic guards who are under 5'8". Granted two were last second shots, but it was not the height that made us lose. We have just not had an answer for that in the last 6 years.

 

[GoChips20]

I’m glad we’re not relitigating the NC game loss. But I agree with @oldhuskie and his reading of the likelihoods over the next two seasons and the importance of having enough people to play a ‘natural’ position.

As it happens, I’m very confident about what Ice and Ayanna will be able to bring even as freshmen. I suspect a rotation consisting of the 5 bigs (with Amari as the only real question mark) will be very difficult for any team to cope with. Even SC, with a tremendous Boston and a so-so Cardozo, will be hard pressed to deal with us. Why? Because they’ll be overwhelmed at the 4. That will put Saxton and Amihere up against a lot of really strong kids. They’re used to being stronger and faster than any opponents, and that won’t be the case against us. They’ll win the battle of the 5s and get swamped at the 4. And I think they’ll be totally outmatched at 1-3. I’d say we’re SC’s worry much more than they are ours.

Its a similar story at Stanford. Brink and Betts and Prechdel may win the 5, but not the 4, and they just don’t have the guards to run with us. If Amari exceeds expectations, so much the better. But even if she just gives us 7-8 mediocre mins, it’s still gonna be a huge plus for us.

I’m simply playing devil’s advocate here but this has been the narrative for a little while now and it didn’t come to fruition in either of the matchups last year. In fact, I would say the UConn bigs played SC’s frontcourt closer to a draw than the guards in the national championship match.

Make no mistake, when Paige is healthy, I don’t think there’s a better guard in the nation. I’m a big fan and have been for some time. But I’m not sure how the loss of a strong defensive post and the addition of two unproven freshman will overwhelm two other top teams at the 4 spot. (For what it’s worth, I suspect Brink will primarily play the 4 for Stanford this year).

To me, the national championship question for Connecticut this year is how the multifaceted frontcourt rotation (admittedly deeper than last year) gels together enough so that the offensive and defensive performances aren’t disrupted when players come in and out at the 4 and 5 spots. The UConn bigs range from raw and absurdly athletic (DeBerry, Griffin, Patterson) to skilled and perhaps a touch undersized (Brady and Juhasz), so remaining consistent on both ends of the floor may determine how far the Huskies go.

 

[Bone Dog]

I’m simply playing devil’s advocate here but this has been the narrative for a little while now and it didn’t come to fruition in either of the matchups last year. In fact, I would say the UConn bigs played SC’s frontcourt closer to a draw than the guards in the national championship match.

Make no mistake, when Paige is healthy, I don’t think there’s a better guard in the nation. I’m a big fan and have been for some time. But I’m not sure how the loss of a strong defensive post and the addition of two unproven freshman will overwhelm two other top teams at the 4 spot. (For what it’s worth, I suspect Brink will primarily play the 4 for Stanford this year).

To me, the national championship question for Connecticut this year is how the multifaceted frontcourt rotation (admittedly deeper than last year) gels together enough so that the offensive and defensive performances aren’t disrupted when players come in and out at the 4 and 5 spots. The UConn bigs range from raw and absurdly athletic (DeBerry, Griffin, Patterson) to skilled and perhaps a touch undersized (Brady and Juhasz), so remaining consistent on both ends of the floor may determine how far the Huskies go.

I think you have a reasonable sense of the problems here generally speaking, and about the SC matchup in particular.

My view is optimistic at best. I can only base it on what happened two seasons ago, when Beal couldn't contain Paige, and she led a stunning defeat of SC. It depended importantly on Aaliyah Edwards outplaying Saxton at the 4. When Olivia was out of the game, Edwards couldn't really contain Boston. But Griffin and Edwards together did a pretty decent job of keeping Boston and Saxton from running away with the game at those moments.

It is an optimistic view, to be sure, even if all the injury chances break our way. I think we are very likely to lose at the 4-5, but not by too much, and we'll win at the 1-3 by a lot. SC has some promising young guards who might step up to play next to Beal and Cooke, but they've gotten precious little experience, and our guards have 6 tons of experience. Maybe that mitigates my optimistic reverie a little. In any event, it means that we pose more problems to SC than we did last season.