On the "need" for big (ie. tall) post players

[Bigboote]

I'm sorry but Mir was not as effective as the rose colored glasses so many of you have... yeah maybe she rebounded but what did she do with it? Not kick it out... She would just go back up with a low percent awkward shot at a big or travel.. she was also a liability on defense with all the fouls. Aubrey is great for periods of time but you still need a big when the other team is good and has a good big.

in my viewing years, only Tuck at her under size 6' 2" for a 5 could defend bigs as well as score.. I still love how she could just shut Coates in particular down.

The only thing I mentioned (and the only thing mentioned in the thread) is that Mir rebounded very well. No rose-colored glasses, since you agree.

 

[CocoHusky]

Her first 2 years she had Stewie and Tuck.

I'm not talking about her first two years. Stewie & Tuck Had Dolson in their first two years and Kiah Stokes for 3 years as well. Gabby didn't become an AA until Stewie and Tuck had graduated.

 

[SVCBeercats]

Griner has also only won 1 WNBA title even with Dee on the team. Sue has won more WNBA titles in that time then either of them.

Let's not forget Sue won more WNBA titles because she was teamed with Lauren Jackson and Breanna Stewart. Without them ... ???

 

[SVCBeercats]

That 2016 team had a 7 that could beat anyone. Stewie, Tuck, Collier, KLS, Nurse, who was as tough as anyone, Gabby, and Moriah.

Anyone except the 2013-14 seven: Stewart, Dolson, Stokes, Tuck, KML, Moriah, and Hartley.

 

[DEpup]

Since Morgan Tuck : Gabby Williams at 5'11" played the 5 position at AA level and was a capable scorer.
Napheesa Collier at 6'2" )( allegedly) played the 5 position for UCONN at an AA level & and was a very capable scorer.
Megan Walker at 6'1' played the 4 position for UCONN at an AA level was a very capable scorer.

And no national championships without Morgan and Stewie......

 

[hoophuskee]

USC’s post players forced our guards to help out our post players on defense giving Henderson the opportunity to take wide open shots.

Our post players were neutralized much better by their post players allowing their guards to tightly guard our perimeter players.

The discrepancy from the perimeter was directly related to the advantage of their post players. The question mark for me is how much of this superiority would have existed with a healthy ONO.

And a healthy Dorka?

**Before anyone gets on us, I'll say again SC was the better team. Just sayin though . . . But SC deserved their title. An impressive team.

 

[baggerbob]

Anyone except the 2013-14 seven: Stewart, Dolson, Stokes, Tuck, KML, Moriah, and Hartley.

The 2016 team had 3 seniors in Stewie, Tuck, and Moriah who were much better then the Sophomore, Stewie, Tuck, and Moriah, and wasn't Tuck injured part of that year.

 

[ctchamps]

And a healthy Dorka?

**Before anyone gets on us, I'll say again SC was the better team. Just sayin though . . . But SC deserved their title. An impressive team.

Based on Dorka’s play against NC State and Indiana I didn’t include her. She doesn’t match up well against certain bigs.

 

[oldhusky]

And no national championships without Morgan and Stewie......

See I can see logic in both Coco and DEpup's points. Coco shows examples of undersized players performing quite well, and DEpup while not disagreeing with those examples, also points out that those players as good as they were, did not win any championships when the team played them out of position out of necessity.

Ideally those teams would have had a very good big C and Gabby and Napheesa could have been 4's, and the best scenario with Megan would have her at the 3, but we didn't have quality at the 4 that year so we went small ball with Megan as a 4. In my opinion all three of those players would be better at their natural position, but frequently teams have too much depth at one position, are relatively weak at another and make do with a player or two getting major minutes away from their best position. Certainly having a few multi position players helps when injuries strike or teams use a shorter rotation.

For this upcoming season things are nicely in place. If the starters are Paige, Azzi, Caroline, Aaliyah, and Dorka, all those players are at their natural position. We can even have substitutes largely at comfortable positions as well. Nika for Paige, Lou for Caroline, either Nika or Lou as Azzi's backup, but if Paige is still in the game and Nika comes in for Azzi, Nika plays the point and for a few minutes Paige is the SG.

Up front Ice, Ayanna and Aubrey are mostly 4's behind Aaliyah, and only at backup C does the question of playing someone out of position really come into play. Even there, if Amari takes the backup job you might have everyone playing a natural position, but if it wound up being say Ice instead, that is still presumably pretty darn good.

Can we beat SC or Stanford with two great C's (6-5 and 6-7) and (6-4 and 6-7) respectively? Sure but not because of an edge there, but because those teams don't have a backcourt of Paige and Azzi either. We don't have to beat their bigs, but we can't be dominated there either, and we have to at least be competitive with them.

The size issue is more about next year. We lose a starting C with size, and if Amari isn't the answer we don't have anyone else with C size lined up for that position, at least yet. Aaliyah or Ice could do well there, but ideally they wouldn't have to. Del Rosario is probably the only remaining C in the 2023 class that could potentially keep our PF's at their natural position, and she might not be good enough to accomplish that either, and there are no indications we are near nabbing her services. So we probably make do with our talented 4's at the 5 next year, but I think we should continually be looking for a top true C as well.

 

[hoophuskee]

Based on Dorka’s play against NC State and Indiana I didn’t include her. She doesn’t match up well against certain bigs.

How well did Evina match up to bigs on Stanford?

 

[Bone Dog]

I’m glad we’re not relitigating the NC game loss. But I agree with @oldhuskie and his reading of the likelihoods over the next two seasons and the importance of having enough people to play a ‘natural’ position.

As it happens, I’m very confident about what Ice and Ayanna will be able to bring even as freshmen. I suspect a rotation consisting of the 5 bigs (with Amari as the only real question mark) will be very difficult for any team to cope with. Even SC, with a tremendous Boston and a so-so Cardozo, will be hard pressed to deal with us. Why? Because they’ll be overwhelmed at the 4. That will put Saxton and Amihere up against a lot of really strong kids. They’re used to being stronger and faster than any opponents, and that won’t be the case against us. They’ll win the battle of the 5s and get swamped at the 4. And I think they’ll be totally outmatched at 1-3. I’d say we’re SC’s worry much more than they are ours.

Its a similar story at Stanford. Brink and Betts and Prechdel may win the 5, but not the 4, and they just don’t have the guards to run with us. If Amari exceeds expectations, so much the better. But even if she just gives us 7-8 mediocre mins, it’s still gonna be a huge plus for us.

 

[DrummerDee]

USC’s post players forced our guards to help out our post players on defense giving Henderson the opportunity to take wide open shots.

Our post players were neutralized much better by their post players allowing their guards to tightly guard our perimeter players.

The discrepancy from the perimeter was directly related to the advantage of their post players. The question mark for me is how much of this superiority would have existed with a healthy ONO.

Sorry, but USC is in California. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[AzzisBraids]

We need someone who wants to play in the post. Napheesa Collier is a prime example of the paint player we need. She just wanted to be in the paint and make lay-ups. It was that simple. I'll take a 6'2 post who likes to bang in the paint over anyone not 6'6 and up. I think Ice Brady will be that girl.

 

[Stymie]

I was going to put this in the "recruiting" thread, but it's not discussing any specific recruits, and more a theoretical rambling on my part...

A couple of thoughts FWIW. A lot of people (myself included at times) lament that we don't have, or seem to recruit, a big 6'5" elite true center. Well a couple of things.
First, Boston as we know, is the most elite of all centers in the country. But put her on a lesser team without as much talent at every other position, and it wouldn't really be a problem for UCONN. WHAT you say??

Included in the top 10 centers last season (Boston and Ono on the list of course) were Mackenzie Holmes of Indiana and Elissas Cunane for NC State (Cunane was "rated" higher in the top 10 centers for last season).

When UCONN faced off against Indiana, Holmes had 12 points and 6 boards. Their other forward, 6'3" Gulbe, had 7 and 5. On the other hand, Ono had 10/14 while Edwards had 9/10. Dorka played 3 minutes.

Vs. NC State, it was the opposite. Forwards Cunane/Jones had 18/9 and 12/9 respectively. It was a 2 OT game. ONO and Edwards had 6/7 and 10/6 respectively. 18 boards vs. 13 for us. Dorka played 3 minutes. But in this game our guards carried us with Paige, Azzi and Christyn scoring 67 between the trio. So we overcame the deficiency in our post production with great guard play.

Vs. SC, we were torched by Henderson (26 points) but the duo of Boston/Saxton didn't demolish our post players in production, with the exception of rebounds. 10 offensive boards for SC. Ono/Edwards had 4/2 and 8/2. Boston/Saxton had 11/16 and 6/5. Not devastating in scoring, but of course killed us on the boards. The problem in that game wasn't our post players, but rather the fact that Azzi and Christyn scored a combined 5 points.

Anyway my point is that if you look at the skill and talent we have in the post - right now and incoming - Dorka, Liya, Amari, Ice, Ayanna, and hopefully Aubrey, that's enough to hold our own even against SC. If Ducharme is our 3rd starter at the "guard" spot, then she and Azzi can't chuck up 5 points in a big game and expect to win. We have to do better at rebounding, but this is Boston's last season, and there are no elite centers coming up that are at her level (Betts is way unproven. Cunningham is only 1" taller than Ice and no better).

I would argue that Ice is already elite (for her age) as a big body in the post. Ayanna, at 6'3" (or maybe 6'2") is an uber-elite athlete. She will GET AFTER rebounds. Aaliyah is a beast, Dorka can be, and Amari - well the jury is out on her.

I always want quality bigs. but aside from Boston and maybe Betts, I'm not sure there are any game changers out there. Griner only won 1 NC. We have enough skill and size to win. But a lot depends on how much Amari improves and how much Ice and Ayanna can give us as freshmen. Also we need to be healthy. Good grief, even over the summer, we still hear reports that several players won't be 100% till closer to the start of the season.

I don't doubt that some will be emphatic that we need more quality "size". But 1) it hardly exists and 2) I'm not sure we don't already have that. Thoughts?

Aayliah is a ‘Beast’—>sometimes.
Sometimes- not so much.
I’m hoping last year’s 2nd half trajectory continues.

 

[DEpup]

See I can see logic in both Coco and DEpup's points. Coco shows examples of undersized players performing quite well, and DEpup while not disagreeing with those examples, also points out that those players as good as they were, did not win any championships when the team played them out of position out of necessity.

Ideally those teams would have had a very good big C and Gabby and Napheesa could have been 4's, and the best scenario with Megan would have her at the 3, but we didn't have quality at the 4 that year so we went small ball with Megan as a 4. In my opinion all three of those players would be better at their natural position, but frequently teams have too much depth at one position, are relatively weak at another and make do with a player or two getting major minutes away from their best position. Certainly having a few multi position players helps when injuries strike or teams use a shorter rotation.

For this upcoming season things are nicely in place. If the starters are Paige, Azzi, Caroline, Aaliyah, and Dorka, all those players are at their natural position. We can even have substitutes largely at comfortable positions as well. Nika for Paige, Lou for Caroline, either Nika or Lou as Azzi's backup, but if Paige is still in the game and Nika comes in for Azzi, Nika plays the point and for a few minutes Paige is the SG.

Up front Ice, Ayanna and Aubrey are mostly 4's behind Aaliyah, and only at backup C does the question of playing someone out of position really come into play. Even there, if Amari takes the backup job you might have everyone playing a natural position, but if it wound up being say Ice instead, that is still presumably pretty darn good.

Can we beat SC or Stanford with two great C's (6-5 and 6-7) and (6-4 and 6-7) respectively? Sure but not because of an edge there, but because those teams don't have a backcourt of Paige and Azzi either. We don't have to beat their bigs, but we can't be dominated there either, and we have to at least be competitive with them.

The size issue is more about next year. We lose a starting C with size, and if Amari isn't the answer we don't have anyone else with C size lined up for that position, at least yet. Aaliyah or Ice could do well there, but ideally they wouldn't have to. Del Rosario is probably the only remaining C in the 2023 class that could potentially keep our PF's at their natural position, and she might not be good enough to accomplish that either, and there are no indications we are near nabbing her services. So we probably make do with our talented 4's at the 5 next year, but I think we should continually be looking for a top true C as well.

Thank you. I feel like you got my point. Great players forced to be out of position. That can get you wins for almost the whole season until the end where the opponents are pretty good and can exploit the out of position situation..Azure stays another year like Dorka and gets some of the post moves she developed in the W. It's a whole different equation. Size matters.

 

[Carnac]

View attachment 77208

We'll switch to CROWN ROYAL once the season starts.

 

[Beemer]

Bingo on Jamelle! While certainly not close to UConn's all-time best players, she'll always be on my roster because of her warrior presence. Loved her from the moment I saw her.

I equate her to Kevin Freeman on the men's side.

She's my all time favorite Husky and for that reason. She was "only" 6 feet tall but she played much bigger, especially underneath the basket. If she can get some of UConn's young "bigs" to play half as large as she did, they'll be fine.

 

[Bone Dog]

Watching the workout videos, I have a feeling Ayanna is the next Jamelle. She’s strong and tough, and used to carrying her HS team. She can be that rock for us. And when she dunks the ball in a game, it won’t be one of those barely-getting-it-over-the-rim onehanders. It’ll be a thunderous two handed throw down.

 

[Gus Mahler]

Anyone except the 2013-14 seven: Stewart, Dolson, Stokes, Tuck, KML, Moriah, and Hartley.

My all-time favorite team.

Unless I'm mistaken, both sevens consisted of all first-round draft picks.

 

[hoophuskee]

Thank you. I feel like you got my point. Great players forced to be out of position. That can get you wins for almost the whole season until the end where the opponents are pretty good and can exploit the out of position situation..Azure stays another year like Dorka and gets some of the post moves she developed in the W. It's a whole different equation. Size matters.

Please don’t take offense to the post. I have to post quick – it is meant with respect and I have to run out. You and others on here are great posters.

But aren’t you also saying that “natural-position” isn't necessary? It could be a factor just like many things could be. Because you just spoke of Azura needing more “experience” despite team having "natural position" players. So a team with more experience for example could take advantage of "an Azura of more-natural-position" even if they aren’t, right?

For example - when UCONN lost to ND that year- isn't it true that the guards played poorly? What does that have to do with "natural position?" - The "natural-position players" got significantly outplayed. IS that the bigger problem? When UCONN has won their titles, haven’t they had tremendous guards other than 09-10? That doesn't have anything to do with natural position either at other positions, right?

Looking back at past champions, in Wolters sr year, they had a team with natural position and lost to Tenn. When UCONN won in 01-02 - was AJones a natural-position" center? And isn't that team regarded as one of the greatest of all-time? What about Tennessee when they had the 3 "Miques?" Did they have a natural center that was significant? Maybe- I don’t know. Just asking.

Looking back at the championship teams of the past- 9 of the 11- UCONN had the best player in WCBB. The 99-00 team had Bird, Ralph, and Sveta. The 12-13 team, had the best player in the Tourney- Stewart. This is a lot more important than "natural position." The 15-16 team, who was the “natural-position” center?

 

[baggerbob]

Please don’t take offense to the post. I have to post quick – it is meant with respect and I have to run out. You and others on here are great posters.

But aren’t you also saying that “natural-position” isn't necessary? It could be a factor just like many things could be. Because you just spoke of Azura needing more “experience” despite team having "natural position" players. So a team with more experience for example could take advantage of "an Azura of more-natural-position" even if they aren’t, right?

For example - when UCONN lost to ND that year- isn't it true that the guards played poorly? What does that have to do with "natural position?" - The "natural-position players" got significantly outplayed. IS that the bigger problem? When UCONN has won their titles, haven’t they had tremendous guards other than 09-10? That doesn't have anything to do with natural position either at other positions, right?

Looking back at past champions, in Wolters sr year, they had a team with natural position and lost to Tenn. When UCONN won in 01-02 - was AJones a natural-position" center? And isn't that team regarded as one of the greatest of all-time? What about Tennessee when they had the 3 "Miques?" Did they have a natural center that was significant? Maybe- I don’t know. Just asking.

Looking back at the championship teams of the past- 9 of the 11- UCONN had the best player in WCBB. The 99-00 team had Bird, Ralph, and Sveta. The 12-13 team, had the best player in the Tourney- Stewart. This is a lot more important than "natural position." The 15-16 team, who was the “natural-position” center?

Stewie's 2 WNBA championships had no natural center, the same with EDD in 2019. Chicago did have Dolson, but Parker played most of the time. Notice the similarities, a great mobile forward on each team.
A player who can play from one end to the other. Create for them selves and teammates.

 

[Bone Dog]

Yup, there's not just one formula for winning. The genius of a coach is to imagine how it will happen with the talent he has each year.

 

[UHF]

indeed
and being damned good at boxing out will do wonders too

3 players outside the 3 pt arc and 1 player above the foul line is another reason why offensive rebounding is not great.

 

[Beemer]

3 players outside the 3 pt arc and 1 player above the foul line is another reason why offensive rebounding is not great.

This ^. You can't even hope to get a rebound if you're nowhere near the basket.

 

[UHF]

Yup, there's not just one formula for winning. The genius of a coach is to imagine how it will happen with the talent he has each year.

NY Giants head coach Tom Coughlin lead 10-6 and 9-7 teams to Super Bowl victories. Coughlin got the team to peak at the right time.

Of course, without the helmet catch and Brady throwing the ball 3 inches too high for Welker to catch, the Giants most likely lose both SB42 and SB46.

(Plaxico Burress shooting himself ruined the season for the best team that Coughlin coached in NY. Giants were 10-1 when Burress shot himself. Giants then went 2-3 to end the regular season, before losing their only playoff game.)