Notre Dame struggling in Cancun (merged thread)

[msf22b]

For me its very simplistic...
I like to see them lose...to us...splendid...to the greater world: better yet.
The feeling is a little like I had watching the futility at UTenn last season...
Interestingly, I'm enjoying see UTenn show some life and spunk and I have a good vibe with regard their new coach.

People here have long memories about the UTenn issues which were discussed earlier in the week.
But I remember much unpleasantness with regard the Irish; mainly Muffet; sexist, hogwash with regard Geno, refusing to applaud for Stewie, coaching her team in the fine art of taking fake charges and drawing imaginary fouls... arrogant displays by her players, not discouraged. They were not gracious winners...and they won some terrific, highly contested games. No complaints about that.

But I continue to sprout a theory...and I'm not going to relinguish it until definitively proven wrong:

Muffet is the empress without clothes.

The real power behind the team is/was Niele Ivey
No Niele Ivey equals weak recruiting and weak guard play.

I can see a mediocre or worse Notre Dame woman's BB for 2 or 3 years.
Then they'll figure it out and bring her back to be head coach.
And she left to set up that scenario.

 

[Dokey]

I think I prefer to celebrate our victories, not someone else’s defeats.
Unless it’s Nebraska doing the losing, of course.

 

[Rb335]

Right. It was Pulido. Neither Pheesa nor Gabby were starters the year before. It doesn't change the fact that ND's recruiting is the issue.

I think it’s less initial recruiting, and more transfers.
Had all of the players MM recruited stayed, the team would be vastly different.

Starting 5 would be Jordan Nixon, Jackie Young, Erin Boley, Danielle Patterson, Mikayla Vaughn

Then the Irish would have a bench of Gilbert, cosgrove, Prohaska, Brunelle and Peoples. That’s 4 top 70 recruits coming off the bench. Easily a top 10 type team. Maybe her issue is recruiting players who want to stay all four years.

We are just lucky that the timing of 75% of our current junior class transferring didn’t have a larger negative impact.

 

[JordyG]

I think it’s less initial recruiting, and more transfers.
Had all of the players MM recruited stayed, the team would be vastly different.

Starting 5 would be Jordan Nixon, Jackie Young, Erin Boley, Danielle Patterson, Mikayla Vaughn

Then the Irish would have a bench of Gilbert, cosgrove, Prohaska, Brunelle and Peoples. That’s 4 top 70 recruits coming off the bench. Easily a top 10 type team. Maybe her issue is recruiting players who want to stay all four years.

We are just lucky that the timing of 75% of our current junior class transferring didn’t have a larger negative impact.

And somehow you think those recruits didn't know that huge class was graduating? Still they left. A major part of recruiting is knowing the kind of player you're recruiting. There is where I think MM fell down. That and knowing how they would respond to her quick yank philosophy. Also, if all the players Texas, UConn SCar and other colleges had stayed they'd be vying for that top 10 spot as well. If if's were skiffs we'd all be sailing.

 

[LoTrader]

I feel like I was the only person in the entire that knew Norte Dame was going to be one of the worst teams in the country this season. Many more loses coming for Muffet this season, but kudos to her not playing a cupcake schedule like some (Mississippi State, Maryland, the Oregon schools).

Fake media: Oregon State has played 3 x Top 25 teams

 

[cohenzone]

Simple analogy: imagine UConn this year with no returning starters and only true post presence out with injury.

Of course their program is down this year for those reasons So? Obviously it’s likely not fun for their players, but nobody I know goes around looking at programs that are perpetual doormats around the country caring about those programs. And we just beat a P5 team with our senior point guard out, a freshman starter missing half the game and a potential AA center playing with a broken toe and using a senior at forward who GA has been reluctant to play much until forced to recently.

I get that it’s fun playing against good teams, but there was a time not many years ago when only a tiny number of teams could stay within 15 points of UConn. And UConn fans tend to fret if we only win by 7. Heaven forbid this ND team gives us a battle, even in a supposed down year for us. I’m guessing this “down year” will be one that most programs would die for and not cry a bit if we had a truly down year. ND won its first women’s NC when our two senior AA were out with injuries. I doubt their fans felt sorry for us.

 

[Orangutan]

But I continue to sprout a theory...and I'm not going to relinguish it until definitively proven wrong:

Muffet is the empress without clothes.

The real power behind the team is/was Niele Ivey
No Niele Ivey equals weak recruiting and weak guard play.

Niele is a special person and excellent coach. She was an integral part on ND's recent successes. However, I don't buy this theory.

Part of what got ND into this situation was mediocre (by the standards of a perennial top-5 team) recruiting classes in 2017 and 2018 with Niele as recruiting coordinator. ND just signed a very nice 2019 class after Niele departed for Memphis.

Transfers also have hurt ND and if you want to credit Niele for all the successes during her tenure it's only fair to assign her a share of the blame for the transfers that occured while she was there.

Also, there is the very obvious point that Muffet is Ivey's mentor.

In an alternate universe, Muffet retired after last season and Niele was appointed her successor. In that scenario, people would be saying that Niele was overrated all those years as she rode Muffet's coattails.

To echo a famous quip - it's the roster, stupid.

I mean, Marina Mabrey just torched the best club in Europe last week in her first Euroleague game.

Comparing her to Sniezek is like comparing a Ferrari to a used Honda Civic...

Of course the guard play is worse!

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

Notre Dame, to me, is like TN! The coaches, administrators, and a majority of their fans are arrogant about the "so-called" Notre Dame effect! They feel as though they're entitled because they're special!
It all comes from the ND Football image and filters down to the other sports!
TN Football has never been as worshipped as ND Football has through the years. TN got most of their WCBB clout from winning big in a lesser competitive NCAA Division I years (pre-1995)! There were maybe 9 - 10 teams that were powerhouses back then, Auburn, VA, LA Tech, Old Dominion, GA, TN, SoCal, Stanford, TX.
IMHO a lot of the top 25 teams today might be able to beat the powerhouses back then as the coaching is better, there are more better athletes, better knowledge of sports training.
I don't throw the players in but there were 2, Parker for TN and Diggins for the Irish

 

[TheGOAT23]

Fake media: Oregon State has played 3 x Top 25 teams
[/QUOTE

.....and the USA team (which didn’t affect their W/L), but they played them and didn’t back down.

 

[jayfromfla]

FGCU has been a solid team for 20 years. Can't believe the coach hasn't been stolen over the years. They are grossly overlooked and underestimated

 

[mbr33ct]

 

[oldude]

Just thought I would throw this in here. While ND appears to have fallen on hard times at 4-4 after losing their top 9 players from last season, the team from Austin, TX is now 3-3, unranked and, as far as I know, they didn’t lose their top 9 players from last season. Wondering if Karen Aston is on a HW watch?

 

[DEpup]

I think there is a certain pattern to their recruiting lately that has left them vulnerable. It seems they have had big classes followed by a one star class and each time the one star has chosen to go pro with the big class ahead of them. Examples are Lloyd and then Young. I think Peters also left early. And then they just had the mass exodus transfer group which impacts their consistency. There is some sort of shake up behind the scenes there looking at it from the outside.

 

[geneticrex]

I'm a simple man. ND goes down, I smile.

 

[JonathanXIV]

Fake media: Oregon State has played 3 x Top 25 teams

Surprised it took you 7 whole minutes to respond to the reference to Oregon State’s strength of schedule. You’re slipping.

 

[LoTrader]

Surprised it took you 7 whole minutes to respond to the reference to Oregon State’s strength of schedule. You’re slipping.

I'll work on being more responsive

 

[JordyG]

Fake media: Oregon State has played 3 x Top 25 teams

Actually only 2, but who's counting. Looking ahead things do get tough. Playing Oregon twice is a task. Scott has held his own this year though, ain't no doubt. I've shined your apple before, but Scott and Jeff Walz are two of the good guys in WCBB.

 

[VA Huskie]

I’m wondering if anyone thinks there’s a “problem” at ND that has produced 2 All Americans (Lloyd and Young) leaving early and 3 very good (or potentially so) players transferring (Patterson, Boley, Prohaska) transferring? I think there’s one more transfer that I’m forgetting. I know transfers are increasing, in general... and UConn has had its share. But is there an issue of some sort at ND?

 

[Plebe]

I’m wondering if anyone thinks there’s a “problem” at ND that has produced 2 All Americans (Lloyd and Young) leaving early and 3 very good (or potentially so) players transferring (Patterson, Boley, Prohaska) transferring? I think there’s one more transfer that I’m forgetting. I know transfers are increasing, in general... and UConn has had its share. But is there an issue of some sort at ND?

Prohaska didn't transfer.

 

[Naples Husky]

Oregon at home down at halftime to Louisville ND WON over USF

 

[Plebe]

Oregon at home down at halftime to Louisville ND WON over USF

The Virgin Islands are a bit far from Oregon to call it a home game.

 

[Ozimoto]

Right now ND is very inconsistent as is to be expected with a young team.

I don't think South Florida is a top twenty five team...

 

[DefenseBB]

Right. It was Pulido. Neither Pheesa nor Gabby were starters the year before. It doesn't change the fact that ND's recruiting is the issue.

I am researching recruiting by the “top” teams for an article I will update from last year and to be honest, it’s not recruiting that’s hurting ND, it’s transfers out, injuries (who has had more?) and Young leaving early that hurt ND for this season. Think Boley, Nixon, Patberg and Young all on this team. I think one other also transferred out and Vaughn has been hurt for much of her career. Now so is Prohaska. MM will deal with this “down” year in exchange for the NCAAT she got 2 years ago.

 

[Mr.LoveThem]

They lost to South Dakota State 65-59

Nuff said!

oh happy days. When we beat them in December it will feel good BUT I hope we meet them at the Dance so we can bid them adios like they have done to us in the past. Hard feelings? When it comes to ND there is, and let Geno did his one two gig after the ND game (in the tournament) like she did to us last year!

 

[Alydar]

I think there is a certain pattern to their recruiting lately that has left them vulnerable. It seems they have had big classes followed by a one star class and each time the one star has chosen to go pro with the big class ahead of them. Examples are Lloyd and then Young. I think Peters also left early. And then they just had the mass exodus transfer group which impacts their consistency. There is some sort of shake up behind the scenes there looking at it from the outside.

MM mortgaged the future and was lucky that Arike made both those 3's or she would have had nothing for it.

 

[CocoHusky]

MM mortgaged the future and was lucky that Arike made both those 3's or she would have had nothing for it.

How so?

 

[Alydar]

How so?

If she had spread out her classes and starters some of those transfers might not have happened. When you entire starting team are all juniors and seniors together that's 2 years of underclassmen basically sitting. Today's players, with social media and cell phones, find they have other options.

 

[CocoHusky]

If she had spread out her classes and starters some of those transfers might not have happened. When you entire starting team are all juniors and seniors together that's 2 years of underclassmen basically sitting. Today's players, with social media and cell phones, find they have other options.

Does not compute for Nixon, Boley and Patterson specifically. Nixon & Patterson walked away from "likely" starting as Sophomores. Boley started 10 of 37 games as a Freshmen, while Jackie Young got zero starts in the same season. I think as @DefenseBB has pointed out it was the injuries that got ND not transfers out and certainly not a failure to spread the recruiting classes out.

 

[sivad40]

If she had spread out her classes and starters some of those transfers might not have happened. When you entire starting team are all juniors and seniors together that's 2 years of underclassmen basically sitting. Today's players, with social media and cell phones, find they have other options.

No one has mention that she brought in grad transfers twice to supplant sophomore guards who were in line to get starter minutes. She brought in Lili Thompson, and Ali Patberg ending up transferring. She brought in Marta Sniezek and Destinee Walker, and Jordan Nixon transferred.

 

[Alydar]

Does not compute for Nixon, Boley and Patterson specifically. Nixon & Patterson walked away from "likely" starting as Sophomores. Boley started 10 of 37 games as a Freshmen, while Jackie Young got zero starts in the same season. I think as @DefenseBB has pointed out it was the injuries that got ND not transfers out and certainly not a failure to spread the recruiting classes out.

I sympathize with the injuries but without them N Dame would still be losing their entire starting 5. It wouldn't be the nightmare MM faces but even without the injuries they were in a rebuilding year. Who among the roster as of last May had much starting experience or serious minutes? Only the Stanford transfer and that experience was for Tara.