NON-Uconn WCBB News

[Plebe]

Pac 12 Player of the Year: Sabrina Ionescu (Oregon)
Defensive Player of the Year: Kristine Anigwe (Cal)
Sixth Player of the Year: Aleah Goodman (Oregon State)
Freshman of the Year: Dre’Una Edwards (Utah)
Coach of the Year: Kelly Graves (Oregon)

All very deserving recipients.
Glad to see Edwards get FOY despite the late-season knee injury.

Pac-12 Announces Annual Women’s Basketball Awards

 

[triaddukefan]

Looking over these All Conference teams..... just goes to show you that no team loses good players to transfer like Maryland. Slocum, Leslie, Gillespie those States definitely benefited

Wow, there are a few Jr. in there but the top level talent in the ACC is almost entirely Sr. The conference is going to look VERY different next season.

 

[UConnCat]

Wow, there are a few Jr. in there but the top level talent in the ACC is almost entirely Sr. The conference is going to look VERY different next season.

Even more so if, as expected, the best junior declares for the draft.

 

[oldude]

Even more so if, as expected, the best junior declares for the draft.

I appreciate your insights. Are you at liberty to discuss the source of your prediction that Ms Young will be declaring for the WNBA draft rather than returning to ND for her senior year?

 

[TerpWomenFan]

Looking over these All Conference teams..... just goes to show you that no team loses good players to transfer like Maryland. Slocum, Leslie, Gillespie those States definitely benefited

Brenda is a great talent evaluator. Sometimes she need to do a better job of keeping her kids on campus.

 

[Dillon77]

Looking over these All Conference teams..... just goes to show you that no team loses good players to transfer like Maryland. Slocum, Leslie, Gillespie those States definitely benefited

Brenda is a great talent evaluator. Sometimes she need to do a better job of keeping her kids on campus.

Yes. Recruiting and Retention are different skill sets.

As you said, that's a lot of talent distributed across the US of A. But there's quite a bit in College Park. And the two fine freshmen had great seasons. And more talent coming in next year (Owusu, Miller, Masonius, etc.). Will see how the development and retention goes.

 

[Orangutan]

Durr with back-to-back ACC PoY awards. Turner with her 3rd DPoY award. Would have expected Wes Moore for CoY, but Butler is an excellent choice given the major turnaround that Clemson made this year.

 

[Jmsdawg]

Thanks for sharing. There will always be a stigma between men and women college basketball. The thing that bothers me the most about the attendance of women college basketball is the students rarely attend the women games.

Obvious South Carolina, Tennessee, UConn, Notre Dame, Louisville and Baylor are exceptions to the rule.

One day someone will do a study on the gap in attendance between the men and women basketball teams in the Power 5 conferences plus UConn.

I believe WBB attendance at Mississippi State exceeds the men’s team. I have seen post on the Elite dawg message complaining about the lack of support for the men vs the women at MSST, most believe it is because the women’s team draws community support but the men’s team support is mainly students and they only come out for big games.

 

[biobioprof]

Bad news for Texas A&M. Hope she is ok for NCAA tournament.

I get the sense that @HuskyNan wants the discussion on the thread that was started on the injury moved here. So here's a reply to that thread that I didn't post there.

Texas A&M's Carter (finger) to miss SEC tourney

Carter, a sophomore guard, was hurt during the Aggies' victory Sunday against Arkansas, suffering a fracture to the little finger on her right (shooting) hand. She's had surgery and is expected to be evaluated in 10 days for a return to basketball activities, according to a release Tuesday from Texas A&M.

It was an open reduction and fixation, signaling a messy fracture. Ordinarily rehab cannot begin for the first 7 days post surgery. And study of recovery from such surgeries reveals:

" Before starting rehabilitation, although pain was minimal, the range of motion was severely restricted and there was considerable restriction in ability to work. Most of the recovery in range of motion, pain, strength, hand use and work participation occurred by Week 6, with smaller gains by Week 12 and Week 26. "

See Pattern of recovery after open reduction and internal fixation of proximal phalangeal fractures in the finger: a prospective longitudinal study. - PubMed - NCBI.

Yes, yes, but those studies involve mere mortals you say! Challenging road ahead hor Ms. Carter and the Aggies. A young talent with a great touch and a big career ahead better think long and hard before trying anything heroic.

Thanks for finding that article. I had posted about the injury news in the Sunday games thread yesterday. What gives us hope that they're not just blowing smoke about the recovery time is stuff like how Alabama QB Tua Tagovailoa was back in practice 2 weeks after ankle surgery.

I was curious about the study you posted, so I took advantage of my university access to the full text. As with most things involving human subjects, the study has limitations wrt the numbers. They started with 66 patients who were a mix of ages, male and female, which finger was broken etc. By the first assessment, at week 6, they had lost 10 subjects for various reasons (7 didn't show up, 1 was an inclusion error, 1 reinjured the hand, 1 withdrew). More fell by the wayside as the study went on. With those caveats:

The findings from this study have important clinical implications. First, within 1 week after ORIF, pain was low but the active range of finger motion was severely impaired. Therefore, rehabilitation that directly targets the loss of motion should be started early, rather than focusing on treating pain. Second, since most of the improvement in range of motion, pain, grip strength, hand activity and work participation occurred within 6 weeks of surgery using this regime, patients should be educated about the importance of maximizing their efforts in their early rehabilitation. This is particularly true for finger extension, since two-thirds were unable to completely extend the injured finger to the same extent as the uninjured side by 6 months.

In summary, range of motion was severely impaired, and participation considerably restricted, before starting rehabilitation. Most recovery occurred by 6 weeks, with smaller gains by 12 weeks and 6 months. Excellent outcomes were achieved, which provide a benchmark for the recovery in those who complete rehabilitation after ORIF of proximal phalangeal fractures.

I'm guessing that makes the difference if she does make it back for the NCAAs won't be superhuman patients, but rather the extent to which rehab will be managed differently than if one of us had the same injury and surgery.

 

[TerpWomenFan]

I believe WBB attendance at Mississippi State exceeds the men’s team. I have seen post on the Elite dawg message complaining about the lack of support for the men vs the women at MSST, most believe it is because the women’s team draws community support but the men’s team support is mainly students and they only come out for big games.

From TV it do seem like the MSST women team does very well. I think the SEC is better top to bottom for the women than it is for the men.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I get the sense that @HuskyNan wants the discussion on the thread that was started on the injury moved here. So here's a reply to that thread that I didn't post there.

Thanks for finding that article. I had posted about the injury news in the Sunday games thread yesterday. What gives us hope that they're not just blowing smoke about the recovery time is stuff like how Alabama QB Tua Tagovailoa was back in practice 2 weeks after ankle surgery.

I was curious about the study you posted, so I took advantage of my university access to the full text. As with most things involving human subjects, the study has limitations wrt the numbers. They started with 66 patients who were a mix of ages, male and female, which finger was broken etc. By the first assessment, at week 6, they had lost 10 subjects for various reasons (7 didn't show up, 1 was an inclusion error, 1 reinjured the hand, 1 withdrew). More fell by the wayside as the study went on. With those caveats:

I'm guessing that makes the difference if she does make it back for the NCAAs won't be superhuman patients, but rather the extent to which rehab will be managed differently than if one of us had the same injury and surgery.

I couldn't find this discussion yet again so I'll repeat what I said in my short thread just a couple of minutes ago:

Apologies Nan, but I just spent 5 minutes looking for that with no luck, so I just will post this and then move on:

According to Blair she has two fractures and had six pins/screws placed. You can see his whole interview in the article below. How good a dribbler/shooter is she left handed?

Texas A&M's Chennedy Carter out with injury until NCAA tournament

Is that new nonUConn board within a board what you are referencing Nan and where is it? The nonUconn news thread is where I wasted 5 minutes.

 

[MSGRET]

I couldn't find this discussion yet again so I'll repeat what I said in my short thread just a couple of minutes ago:

Apologies Nan, but I just spent 5 minutes looking for that with no luck, so I just will post this and then move on:

According to Blair she has two fractures and had six pins/screws placed. You can see his whole interview in the article below. How good a dribbler/shooter is she left handed?

Texas A&M's Chennedy Carter out with injury until NCAA tournament

Is that new nonUConn board within a board what you are referencing Nan and where is it? The nonUconn news thread is where I wasted 5 minutes.

Starts at post #382.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Defensive Player of the Year: Kristine Anigwe (Cal)

That's an interesting call to me. I don't think she's a stand out defensive player. I think this is mostly finding a way to give her some recognition. Couldn't really give her POY because Oregon finished so far ahead of Cal. She did grab a ton of rebounds, I guess that's a way of limiting your opponents scoring opportunities by not giving them second chances.

 

[j66kicker]

Durr with back-to-back ACC PoY awards. Turner with her 3rd DPoY award. Would have expected Wes Moore for CoY, but Butler is an excellent choice given the major turnaround that Clemson made this year.

View attachment 40589

Ahhhh... "The Other Player" wins it again

 

[biobioprof]

SEC Honors: Westbrook didn't make first or second team. Granted the SEC selects 8 players while the Big 10 selects 10.

First Team All-SEC
Caliya Robinson, Georgia
Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Maci Morris, Kentucky
Ayana Mitchell, LSU
Anriel Howard, Mississippi State
Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Sophie Cunningham, Missouri
Chennedy Carter, Texas A&M
Second Team All-SEC
Chelsea Dungee, Arkansas
Janiah McKay, Auburn
Crystal Allen, Ole Miss
Te'a Cooper, South Carolina
Tyasha Harris, South Carolina
Alexis Jennings, South Carolina
Rennia Davis, Tennessee
Mariella Fasoula, Vanderbilt
All-Freshman
Robyn Benton, Auburn
Blair Green, Kentucky
Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Akira Levy, Missouri
Destanni Henderson, South Carolina
Victaria Saxton, South Carolina
Zaay Green, Tennessee
Brinae Alexander, Vanderbilt
All-Defensive
Janiah McKay, Auburn
Caliya Robinson , Georgia
Taylor Murray, Kentucky
Jazzmun Holmes, Mississippi State
Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Co-Coaches of the Year: Matthew Mitchell, Kentucky and Vic Schaefer, Mississippi State
Player of the Year: Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Freshman of the Year: Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Defensive Player of the Year: Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
6th Woman of the Year: Cierra Porter, Missouri
Scholar-Athlete of the Year: Maci Morris, Kentucky

The two oddities for me on the SEC list:

• Rennia Davis on the 2nd team. I thought she was considered to be a letdown from expectations after a good freshman season last year, and I don't see her stats as being under the radar better than the eyeball test. But I only watched a limited number of LV games and the one vs us was particularly bad. LV fans have any thoughts on her? If anyone from Tenn, I expected Westbrook.
• Cierra Porter as 6th woman of the year. Porter's return was important to Mizzou, but she was a starter for the last 10 games after taking 7 to get back into playing form.

 

[Plebe]

BIG EAST Player of the Year
Natisha Hiedeman, Marquette, Sr., G*

BIG EAST Coach of the Year
Kurt Godlevske, Butler

BIG EAST Freshman of the Year
Mary Baskerville, Providence, Fr., F

BIG EAST Defensive Player of the Year
Michelle Weaver, Butler, Sr., G

BIG EAST Most Improved Player
Shadeen Samuels, Seton Hall, Jr., F

BIG EAST Sixth-Woman Award
Allazia Blockton, Marquette, Sr., G

BIG EAST Sportsmanship Award
Jannah Tucker, Villanova, Sr., F
Ashton Millender, DePaul, Sr., G

All-BIG EAST First Team
Audrey Faber, Creighton, Sr., F
Mart’e Grays, DePaul, Sr., F
Natisha Hiedeman, Marquette, Sr., G*
Shadeen Samuels, Seton Hall, Jr., F
Dionna White, Georgetown, Sr., G

All-BIG EAST Second Team
Dorothy Adomako, Georgetown, Grad., G
Erika Davenport, Marquette, Sr., F
Mary Gedaka, Villanova, Jr., F
Tori Schickel, Butler, Sr., F/C
Chante Stonewall, DePaul, Jr., F

All-BIG EAST Honorable Mention
Tiana England, St. John’s, R-So., G
A’riana Gray, Xavier, So., F
Whitney Jennings, Butler, Sr., G
Jovana Nogic, Providence, Sr., G
Amani Wilborn, Marquette, Sr., G

BIG EAST All-Freshman Team
Kadaja Bailey, St. John’s, Fr., G
Mary Baskerville, Providence, Fr., F*
Emily Esposito, Villanova, R-Fr., G
Lexi Held, DePaul, Fr., G*
Kaela Webb, Providence, Fr., G

*unanimous selection

BIG EAST Announces Women’s Basketball Regular-Season Awards

 

[HuskyNan]

I get the sense that @HuskyNan wants the discussion on the thread that was started on the injury moved here. So here's a reply to that thread that I didn't post there.

Thanks for finding that article. I had posted about the injury news in the Sunday games thread yesterday. What gives us hope that they're not just blowing smoke about the recovery time is stuff like how Alabama QB Tua Tagovailoa was back in practice 2 weeks after ankle surgery.

I was curious about the study you posted, so I took advantage of my university access to the full text. As with most things involving human subjects, the study has limitations wrt the numbers. They started with 66 patients who were a mix of ages, male and female, which finger was broken etc. By the first assessment, at week 6, they had lost 10 subjects for various reasons (7 didn't show up, 1 was an inclusion error, 1 reinjured the hand, 1 withdrew). More fell by the wayside as the study went on. With those caveats:

I'm guessing that makes the difference if she does make it back for the NCAAs won't be superhuman patients, but rather the extent to which rehab will be managed differently than if one of us had the same injury and surgery.

My post was just to let people know that the topic was also being discussed her

 

[triaddukefan]

Never in my life would I think I'd be watching Duke play on a Wednesday at the ACC tournament . But here I am . At least I'll get my first ever chance at seeing Pitt play. I think they have five fans here

 

[Plebe]

Never in my life would I think I'd be watching Duke play on a Wednesday at the ACC tournament . But here I am . At least I'll get my first ever chance at seeing Pitt play. I think they have five fans here

Could this be more dramatic? Hanging in the balance is a WNIT bid!

 

[Plebe]

Never in my life would I think I'd be watching Duke play on a Wednesday at the ACC tournament . But here I am . At least I'll get my first ever chance at seeing Pitt play. I think they have five fans here

It was a close game at halftime, but Duke opened up a can on Pitt in 3Q, now up by 18! If you don’t know you better ask somebody! (As in ask @triaddukefan !)

 

[IWearShoes]

The two oddities for me on the SEC list:

• Rennia Davis on the 2nd team. I thought she was considered to be a letdown from expectations after a good freshman season last year, and I don't see her stats as being under the radar better than the eyeball test. But I only watched a limited number of LV games and the one vs us was particularly bad. LV fans have any thoughts on her? If anyone from Tenn, I expected Westbrook.
• Cierra Porter as 6th woman of the year. Porter's return was important to Mizzou, but she was a starter for the last 10 games after taking 7 to get back into playing form.

Another "oddity" is that, with 16 players named 1st or 2nd team All-SEC, the 15-1 champions' 3rd best player didn't make the cut.

Jordan Danberry averaged 13+ points, 3+ rebounds (not a lot to be had with T & Howard, but she got some), 3+ assists, and nearly 2 steals while wreaking much havoc on D. She was the key piece in Mississippi State being pretty elite vs just very good and one of the most improved players in the country. She also stepped up big in the stretch following the loss of Bibby.

She deserved recognition.

 

[DallasBUFan]

2018-19 Phillips 66 All-Big 12 Awards

Coach of the Year: Kim Mulkey, Baylor (19th season at Baylor, 19th overall)
Player of the Year: Bridget Carleton, Iowa State, G, 6-1, Sr., Chatham, Ontario, Canada
Defensive Player of the Year: Lauren Cox, Baylor, F, 6-4, Jr., Flower Mound, Texas
Newcomer of the Year: Vivian Gray, Oklahoma State, G, 6-1, So., Argyle, Texas
Freshman of the Year: Chrislyn Carr, Texas Tech, G, 5-5, Davenport, Iowa
Sixth Man Award: Kari Niblack, West Virginia, F, 6-1, Fr., Leesburg, Fla.

All-Big 12 First Team (honors listed alphabetical by school)

Player School Pos Ht Cl Hometown
Kalani Brown+^** Baylor C 6-7 Sr. Slidell, La.
Lauren Cox+** Baylor F 6-4 Jr. Flower Mound, Texas
Bridget Carleton+^** Iowa State G 6-1 Sr. Chatham, Ontario, Canada
Kayla Goth% Kansas State G 6-1 Sr. DeForest, Wis.
Peyton Williams Kansas State F 6-4 Jr. Topeka, Kan.
Vivian Gray** Oklahoma State G 6-1 So. Argyle, Texas
Jordan Moore TCU C 6-3 Sr. Round Rock, Texas
Sug Sutton Texas G 5-8 Jr. St. Louis, Mo.
Naomi Davenport% West Virginia G/F 6-0 Sr. Cincinnati, Ohio
Tynice Martin^** West Virginia G 5-11 R-Jr. Atlanta, Ga.

All-Big 12 Second Team

Player School Pos Ht Cl Hometown
Chloe Jackson Baylor G 5-8 Gr. Upper Marlboro, Md.
Juicy Landrum Baylor G 5-8 Jr. Waco, Texas
Kristin Scott Iowa State C 6-3 So. Kasson, Minn.
Ana Llanusa Oklahoma G 6-0 So. Choctaw, Okla.
Amy Okonkwo% TCU F 6-2 Sr. Rancho Cucamonga, Calif.

All-Big 12 Honorable Mention
Alexa Middleton (Iowa State), Kylee Kopatich (Kansas), Christalah Lyons (Kansas), Braxtin Miller (Oklahoma State), Joyner Holmes (Texas), Danni Williams (Texas), Brittany Brewer (Texas Tech), Chrislyn Carr (Texas Tech).

 

[Jmsdawg]

SEC Honors: Westbrook didn't make first or second team. Granted the SEC selects 8 players while the Big 10 selects 10.

First Team All-SEC
Caliya Robinson, Georgia
Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Maci Morris, Kentucky
Ayana Mitchell, LSU
Anriel Howard, Mississippi State
Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Sophie Cunningham, Missouri
Chennedy Carter, Texas A&M
Second Team All-SEC
Chelsea Dungee, Arkansas
Janiah McKay, Auburn
Crystal Allen, Ole Miss
Te'a Cooper, South Carolina
Tyasha Harris, South Carolina
Alexis Jennings, South Carolina
Rennia Davis, Tennessee
Mariella Fasoula, Vanderbilt
All-Freshman
Robyn Benton, Auburn
Blair Green, Kentucky
Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Akira Levy, Missouri
Destanni Henderson, South Carolina
Victaria Saxton, South Carolina
Zaay Green, Tennessee
Brinae Alexander, Vanderbilt
All-Defensive
Janiah McKay, Auburn
Caliya Robinson , Georgia
Taylor Murray, Kentucky
Jazzmun Holmes, Mississippi State
Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Co-Coaches of the Year: Matthew Mitchell, Kentucky and Vic Schaefer, Mississippi State
Player of the Year: Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
Freshman of the Year: Rhyne Howard, Kentucky
Defensive Player of the Year: Teaira McCowan, Mississippi State
6th Woman of the Year: Cierra Porter, Missouri
Scholar-Athlete of the Year: Maci Morris, Kentucky

Ty Harris not on first team is a shock to me. The SC games I have watched Ty was really good. She would be first team on my list.

 

[MilfordHusky]

BIG EAST Player of the Year
Natisha Hiedeman, Marquette, Sr., G*

BIG EAST Coach of the Year
Kurt Godlevske, Butler

BIG EAST Freshman of the Year
Mary Baskerville, Providence, Fr., F

BIG EAST Defensive Player of the Year
Michelle Weaver, Butler, Sr., G

BIG EAST Most Improved Player
Shadeen Samuels, Seton Hall, Jr., F

BIG EAST Sixth-Woman Award
Allazia Blockton, Marquette, Sr., G

BIG EAST Sportsmanship Award
Jannah Tucker, Villanova, Sr., F
Ashton Millender, DePaul, Sr., G

All-BIG EAST First Team
Audrey Faber, Creighton, Sr., F
Mart’e Grays, DePaul, Sr., F
Natisha Hiedeman, Marquette, Sr., G*
Shadeen Samuels, Seton Hall, Jr., F
Dionna White, Georgetown, Sr., G

All-BIG EAST Second Team
Dorothy Adomako, Georgetown, Grad., G
Erika Davenport, Marquette, Sr., F
Mary Gedaka, Villanova, Jr., F
Tori Schickel, Butler, Sr., F/C
Chante Stonewall, DePaul, Jr., F

All-BIG EAST Honorable Mention
Tiana England, St. John’s, R-So., G
A’riana Gray, Xavier, So., F
Whitney Jennings, Butler, Sr., G
Jovana Nogic, Providence, Sr., G
Amani Wilborn, Marquette, Sr., G

BIG EAST All-Freshman Team
Kadaja Bailey, St. John’s, Fr., G
Mary Baskerville, Providence, Fr., F*
Emily Esposito, Villanova, R-Fr., G
Lexi Held, DePaul, Fr., G*
Kaela Webb, Providence, Fr., G

*unanimous selection

BIG EAST Announces Women’s Basketball Regular-Season Awards

Mary Baskerville attended Enfield (CT) High. @Blakeon18 mentioned her several times in the past.

 

[triaddukefan]

Joseph still suspended as Georgia Tech clings to NCAA hopes

From the article ...

Kierra Fletcher and Francesca Pan, two of Georgia Tech's top four scorers, left the team at the same time Joseph was forced out.

Assistant coach Mark Simons, serving as acting head coach, told The Associated Press on Tuesday Fletcher and Pan made the decisions to leave the team.

"We've had no contact with them," Simons said when asked about Fletcher and Pan. "We're told that they're fine. It was a personal decision on their part and that's about it."


Fletcher is a sophomore, Pan is a junior.

 

[bballnut90]

I believe WBB attendance at Mississippi State exceeds the men’s team. I have seen post on the Elite dawg message complaining about the lack of support for the men vs the women at MSST, most believe it is because the women’s team draws community support but the men’s team support is mainly students and they only come out for big games.

Mississippi State tickets are also only a couple of bucks for women. Not sure how expensive the men's are, but back to back title game appearances for a school without a rich athletic history is bound to draw crowds.

 

[HopJim]

My post was just to let people know that the topic was also being discussed her

Kudos to my Aggie friends. With most of TX big names going to Texas, Baylor, etc., A&M consistently has a competitive team. Less talent of late, but always well coached.

 

[CocoHusky]

Joseph still suspended as Georgia Tech clings to NCAA hopes

From the article ...

Kierra Fletcher and Francesca Pan, two of Georgia Tech's top four scorers, left the team at the same time Joseph was forced out.

Assistant coach Mark Simons, serving as acting head coach, told The Associated Press on Tuesday Fletcher and Pan made the decisions to leave the team.

"We've had no contact with them," Simons said when asked about Fletcher and Pan. "We're told that they're fine. It was a personal decision on their part and that's about it."


Fletcher is a sophomore, Pan is a junior.

@triaddukefan or someone else please help me with this. The article said Pan and Fletcher left the team at the same time Joseph was forced out. Did the University force Joseph out because she lost two key players or did the players leave because their coach was forced out?

 

[CBus13]

@triaddukefan or someone else please help me with this. The article said Pan and Fletcher left the team at the same time Joseph was forced out. Did the University force Joseph out because she lost two key players or did the players leave because their coach was forced out?

This first article doesn't mention Fletcher or Pan not being with the team. Georgia Tech women’s basketball coach placed on leave


But this second one the next day mentions the two did not travel with the team to Miami for "personal reasons"
MaChelle Joseph’s attorney asserts Tech coach was suspended as retaliation

So, from that I'd gather the two left because Joseph was put on leave...but that may be more bizarre ?

 

[Dillon77]

@triaddukefan or someone else please help me with this. The article said Pan and Fletcher left the team at the same time Joseph was forced out. Did the University force Joseph out because she lost two key players or did the players leave because their coach was forced out?

Coco:
I'm trying to get my facts/timing straight around that sequencing, as well.

And, excuse the obvious, are the departures of the two players and the unspecified charges regarding Joseph intertwined?

In regards to the grad assistant who was let go for having a private conversation, there must be legal flypaper all over the GT athletic facilities if there is a "no talk to players outside of formal events" order going on.

Geesh...this one has the appearance of a quagmire getting murkier...