Non-Key Tweets

[btstimpy]

The Buffalo to the B1G is sheer lunacy.

Their athletic programs suck and they play in high school grade facilities.

We're talking about a bottom feeding MAC program that most everyone would be up in arms if they got an AAC invite and now people are talking them up to the B1G?

I don't think it would happen. I do understand why the Big Ten would analyze SUNY Buffalo though. AAU, large state research university, large market in New York State, contiguous state.

 

[upstater]

Besides Academics, what does Buffalo really bring to the table. To quote Coach Winters from The Program, "Yeah, but when was the last time 80,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damm chemistry experiment? Why don't you stick the bow-tie up your ?"

This quote makes no sense when you think about it. It's like saying, yeah, some people like to watch big men chasing a pig's skin stuffed with leather, but when's the last time a football saved hundreds of millions of people from a disease? Never understood that quote. Is it about money? If so, then Winters wants a bow-tie for company.

UConn certainly has more to offer and has a higher ceiling. Nationally recognized athletics, tremendous state gov't support, increasing academia prestige and can complete the delivery of the an attentive portion of the largest TV market in the country. Buffalo can offer a contiguous state. Why that is important, I don't know.

Easy there. Buffalo just got a billion from the state for its UB2020 build-out. It's got the same backing UConn does. In addition, since its tuition is still under $7k a year, it has a lot of headroom if it wants to get even more money. It's still doing 2x as much in research as UConn, and its goals are to increase that by 40%.

Say all you want about TV markets and DMAs, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey are all pretty much professional sports markets, where college and amateur sports are an after thought. Connecticut brings attentive viewers of the college, amateur, and minor leagues. Of course this is my impression more than based on anything really concrete...

MAC schools are talking about dropping out altogether. There is no doubt at all that this rumor is made up and bogus since schools like Buffalo are looking at packing it in right now.

 

[upstater]

The ACC has a separate contract with Notre Dame that stipulates that iof the Irish joim a conference before 2027, it will be the ACC.

A suit for breach would result in claims for huge damages. It ain't going to happen, anyway.

What damages? How can they be damaged? What's the penalty in other words?

 

[woomba]

MAC schools are talking about dropping out altogether. There is no doubt at all that this rumor is made up and bogus since schools like Buffalo are looking at packing it in right now.

You mean the entire conference or just certain schools? I can see UMass and EMU calling it quits...not sure about the rest, although it wouldn't shock me if they went down to being a 8-10 member league someday.

 

[upstater]

Yes, interesting indeed. Buffalo Lion is certainly our most articulate and supportive 'non-fan' message board booster. As for SUNY Buffalo, yes - it has size and AAU status, but hard to see the B1G going down that rabit hole in the end. Unlike most states, NY's regional interests have competed and diluted the state brand across all big four university campuses and smaller colleges in the system. While I could see the B1G overlooking the lack of athletic accomplishments, its hard to ignore the state's long history of mixed/tangled support for its schools. When you ask NYers about the SUNY system you'll get seven different answers about which school is the flagship and I dont think there is any real will in state politics to change that. In other words, if I were the B1G, I wouldnt want a school which doesnt have clear political support/policy to be the state's flagship.

New York is a big state. It's not like Connecticut with one flagship. UB is the size of UConn. And, despite mixed support for the SUNYs, they have always been much better supported than UConn. Academically it's doing just fine. Sports is another discussion altogether. And there are 4 R1 universities in the state of New York, that's acknowledged by everyone. Many states have more than one flagship, esp. big states. Florida and Florida St is one example. Texas and Texas A&M is another. The term "flagship" itself has several definitions, and is used in different ways. U. Cal. Berkeley calls itself the flagship since it is the first U. Cal., but the Chancellor of U. Cal. has also told Berkeley that they are not to use that term anymore since it is on par with the likes of UCLA and San Diego, etc. Some smaller states like North Dakota have labelled both state universities as flagships.

New York state is too big to have a single flagship. The student population of such a school would make it the biggest school in the universe. As for political support, they just passed a $1 billion spending bill for UB2020.

The athletics talk is hot air. UB will eventually downsize that.

 

[upstater]

You mean the entire conference or just certain schools? I can see UMass and EMU calling it quits...not sure about the rest, although it wouldn't shock me if they went down to being a 8-10 member league someday.

Some others too. Not the whole conference.

 

[TerryD]

Beware of the Irish, they do things to suit themselves only. If they perceive an advantage elsewhere at the right moment they will drop you like a bad habit. I'm OK with that - but don't delude yourself into thinking that they will ever join the ACC unless the ACC can do more for them than they can do for the ACC.

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

 

[Fishy]

I don't think SUNY Buffalo is a good choice myself. But I can understand why the Big Ten might. AAU and Cable Boxes in a big state. It fits their model perfectly.

With all due respect, you're lost in space if you think Buffalo fits anyone's model.

For all intents and purposes, it's not the state of New York. There is a complete disconnect between Western New York and the parts of New York that, for lack of a better word, matter. (Capital District, Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island.)

Western New York has the population of Pittsburgh, but spread out over about 10,000 sq. miles.

 

[ctchamps]

ND has already helped the ACC. They have helped the ACC upgrade the ACC's bowl partner list. They have helped in making FSU happy and getting the GOR in place. The 3 ND football games in even years and 2 ND football games in odd years has added $1.5 million per year to each school. The GOR has added $2 million per year more to each school. ND being a nationally recognized brand makes an ACC Network more likely.

The only negative I see, and I hope it is only temporary, is that without fully joining in football, ND has the ACC in a holding pattern with 15 members in all sports and 14 in football. A 14 member league creates scheduling difficulty when it comes to playing the schools in the opposite division when you only have 8 games and a designated crossover. It will take 12 years to see the other teams at your home stadium. I don't like this. 16 members is much better. But if ND is to be one of the 16, the ACC has to sit in a holding pattern waiting on them. We'll do it for a while, but I don't like this longer term. If we go ahead and add 2 other schools, then we'll have to go to 20 eventually if ND decides to join.

I acknowledged paragraph one.
Paragraph two is the danger that the B!G and the BE have experienced. You are only one of millions of ACC fans. But I feel your statement echoes the wider population. I liken it to the guy who says I can take cocaine and not be addicted to it even as he observes those around him who failed. ND's immediate benefits will make those in decision making matters state the positive and over look the negative until the damage is done.

 

[upstater]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

I'm going to disagree with this. Some schools have acted more reasonably than ND in the past. ND had no business getting in the middle of the restructure in 2004 when all 8 football schools were getting ready to leave with the BCS autobid. It was ND that screwed the BE royally back then, and for what? To forcibly keep the schools together for another 7 years? It made no sense then and it did real damage to these schools, and ND didn't get anything out of it. ND should have let the football schools leave with the autobid and joined the ACC back then. And you're wrong if you believe that many schools wouldn't have done so.

ND was petty back then.

 

[Afroabe224]

The Buffalo to the B1G is sheer lunacy.

Their athletic programs suck and they play in high school grade facilities.

We're talking about a bottom feeding MAC program that most everyone would be up in arms if they got an AAC invite and now people are talking them up to the B1G?

Agree 110%. B1G fans hate the Rutgers/Maryland additions. There would be riots from Lincoln to State College if the B1G even considered this Buffalo nonsense.

 

[Sea Goat]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

I said: "I'm OK with that". My point is that the ACC is delusional if they think ND is going to act out of anything but self interest. This includes ND joining the ACC as real conference member at any time. I take it you agree with that?

 

[upstater]

With all due respect, you're lost in space if you think Buffalo fits anyone's model.

For all intents and purposes, it's not the state of New York. There is a complete disconnect between Western New York and the parts of New York that, for lack of a better word, matter. (Capital District, Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island.)

Western New York has the population of Pittsburgh, but spread out over about 10,000 sq. miles.

The big difference is in per capita income. There are enough people here to make it interesting, but this is a poor area (relatively). Between Buffalo/Niagara Falls/Rochester, there are 2.3m people. When you consider that these towns are 1 hour away by car, that's not an insignificant amount of people to live within an hour of one another. Culturally, the west side of the Niagara River in Ontario has little interest in Buffalo other than shopping, though the Bills get 20% of their season ticket holders from there, but businesswise, an hour's drive from Buffalo brings you to Hamilton and another million or so. One hour and a half gets you Toronto.

This region is actually a lot more compact and populated than any other in NY State other than NYC, and that includes the Capital District and Hudson Valley.

I am absolutely not making any argument for their athletics or TV market. Personally, I think they should join the B1G for D1 hockey. They would take over rather quickly.

 

[ctchamps]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

Everyone should value themselves first and foremost. But there are collaborative efforts that are better when the group has a single objective and the individual needs are sometimes sublimated. This is the entire framework of the B!G. Certainly there is animosity amongst members that ebbs and flows and changes amongst allies. And things could crumble quickly for that conference. From my perspective, if I have to value the two conferences, the ACC + ND vs. the B!G there is not one bit of doubt who's shares I'd buy. If ND went all in with the ACC then I'd most likely buy both. ND and the ACC are playing the short term game which they are playing a lot better than a lot of other players with weaker hands. But this will end up hurting both ND and the ACC in the future because they are misunderstanding the new paradigm in college sports.

If ND agreed to join the ACC, there is an increased chance for an ACC network. Otherwise the chances are small and the chances for success are very small. Without a network the ACC will fall further and further behind those that have networks in in $$$ and leverage to decide their fate.

 

[TerryD]

I'm going to disagree with this. Some schools have acted more reasonably than ND in the past. ND had no business getting in the middle of the restructure in 2004 when all 8 football schools were getting ready to leave with the BCS autobid. It was ND that screwed the BE royally back then, and for what? To forcibly keep the schools together for another 7 years? It made no sense then and it did real damage to these schools, and ND didn't get anything out of it. ND should have let the football schools leave with the autobid and joined the ACC back then. And you're wrong if you believe that many schools wouldn't have done so.

ND was petty back then.

Well, it did help ND in 2003. It kept the BE alive for ND's other sports and kept football independent. The ACC was not offering a partial deal in 2003.

But, in this thread, ND is getting blamed for:

1) Trying to keep the conference together, and

2) Not trying to keep the conference together

...at the same time?

Question:

Why didn't the football playing schools of the Big East just use the "get out of jail free card" before 2010?

Why didn't they split from the BE basketball schools and ND without an exit fee, keep their credits and start their own all sports conference?

How did ND keep them from using this option from 2004 until 2010?

Why didn't those schools band together, get their own TV deal and agree on which schools to expand this new all sports conference with?

I have never seen any real answers to those questions anywhere.

 

[TerryD]

I said: "I'm OK with that". My point is that the ACC is delusional if they think ND is going to act out of anything but self interest. This includes ND joining the ACC as real conference member at any time. I take it you agree with that?

Well, ND is a full, "real conference member" of the ACC in 24 sports, except for football and hockey.

But, yes, ND will not join the ACC as a football member unless it is clearly in ND's own self interest to do so.

I don't think it will ever happen. I don't think that "conference champs only" playoffs will ever occur.

As far as I can tell, that is the only thing that will force ND to join a conference for football.

 

[itgoeslike]

The ACC is getting $20 million per school. The $17 million number was before Notre Dame joined and before the GOR. The Basketball is worth 20%.

Some of the accounts I've read state the $20M figure includes the Notre Dame bump as well as the $2M guaranteed payout annually if the ACC network never launches. I've also seen the figure quoted at $18M without the guaranteed payout. You also need to consider that EPSN et al owns 100% of the media rights. Unlike Oklahoma and Kansas, who can add $6M or more for 2nd and 3rd tier rights on top of the $22M they collected, the ACC schools can't. The ACC will also collect less revenue from BCS (non playoff) bowls than the other four conferences.

 

[Sea Goat]

Well, ND is a full, "real conference member" of the ACC in 24 sports, except for football and hockey.

But, yes, ND will not join the ACC as a football member unless it is clearly in ND's own self interest to do so.

I don't think it will ever happen. I don't think that "conference champs only" playoffs will ever occur.

As far as I can tell, that is the only thing that will force ND to join a conference for football.

I think we're in agreement, but being a member in football is the only thing that really matters.

 

[Exit 4]

New York is a big state. It's not like Connecticut with one flagship. UB is the size of UConn. And, despite mixed support for the SUNYs, they have always been much better supported than UConn. Academically it's doing just fine. Sports is another discussion altogether. And there are 4 R1 universities in the state of New York, that's acknowledged by everyone. Many states have more than one flagship, esp. big states. Florida and Florida St is one example. Texas and Texas A&M is another. The term "flagship" itself has several definitions, and is used in different ways. U. Cal. Berkeley calls itself the flagship since it is the first U. Cal., but the Chancellor of U. Cal. has also told Berkeley that they are not to use that term anymore since it is on par with the likes of UCLA and San Diego, etc. Some smaller states like North Dakota have labelled both state universities as flagships.

New York state is too big to have a single flagship. The student population of such a school would make it the biggest school in the universe. As for political support, they just passed a $1 billion spending bill for UB2020.

The athletics talk is hot air. UB will eventually downsize that.

Yes, the state should and can support multiple flagship universities, but to this day, the four schools approach hasnt really worked in my opinion. I think it would be much better with two or three R1 schools rather than four. Four + the numerous medium sized state colleges dilutes the student body quality and inhibits the state from establishing a Berkeley, Madison, Penn State/State College or even an Ohio St/Columbus type institution.

 

[Husky25]

This quote makes no sense when you think about it. It's like saying, yeah, some people like to watch big men chasing a pig's skin stuffed with leather, but when's the last time a football saved hundreds of millions of people from a disease? Never understood that quote. Is it about money? If so, then Winters wants a bow-tie for company.

You're over thinking it to the point where it becomes apples and oranges comparison. I can't help that.

Easy there. Buffalo just got a billion from the state for its UB2020 build-out. It's got the same backing UConn does. In addition, since its tuition is still under $7k a year, it has a lot of headroom if it wants to get even more money. It's still doing 2x as much in research as UConn, and its goals are to increase that by 40%.

What did I say that is not true? Does UConn not have nationally recognized athletics (yes they do, 11 national champions in nationally televised revenue generating sports, among other sports)? Does UConn not have tremendous state gov't support (Yes it does, it just got another $Billion, as you said)? Does UConn not have increasing academia prestige (Yes it is. It is stepping up its hiring of renowned professors)? Can UConn not deliver an attentive portion of the largest TV market in the country (Yes, The Gold Coast is within state lines and UConn has a sizable following in the Greater New York Metropolitan region)? Do I not know why location in a contiguous state is important (No, I don't).

...MAC schools are talking about dropping out altogether. There is no doubt at all that this rumor is made up and bogus since schools like Buffalo are looking at packing it in right now.

I'd agree that the MAC as a conference may be ready to pack it in, but a few schools will be looking for a soft landing somewhere, in the AAC or CUSA, for example. Buffalo is one of those schools.

 

[TerryD]

Everyone should value themselves first and foremost. But there are collaborative efforts that are better when the group has a single objective and the individual needs are sometimes sublimated. This is the entire framework of the B!G. Certainly there is animosity amongst members that ebbs and flows and changes amongst allies. And things could crumble quickly for that conference. From my perspective, if I have to value the two conferences, the ACC + ND vs. the B!G there is not one bit of doubt who's shares I'd buy. If ND went all in with the ACC then I'd most likely buy both. ND and the ACC are playing the short term game which they are playing a lot better than a lot of other players with weaker hands. But this will end up hurting both ND and the ACC in the future because they are misunderstanding the new paradigm in college sports.

If ND agreed to join the ACC, there is an increased chance for an ACC network. Otherwise the chances are small and the chances for success are very small. Without a network the ACC will fall further and further behind those that have networks in in $ and leverage to decide their fate.

But you are not factoring in ND's goal to portray itself as the national, Catholic university, a football independent that has control over 7 games a year to schedule wherever and with whomever they want.

That identity, that marketing ability for the school (not the football program) is more important to ND that more TV money via the Big Ten or an ACC Network.

Big Ten people thought ND was about the most TV money and in 2010 thought that all they had to show was ND could make more money via the BTN and ND would run to the Big Ten.

They were wrong. ND had no interest in simply making more TV money by joining a football conference. It has other goals not shared by most other programs.

 

[TerryD]

I think we're in agreement, but being a member in football is the only thing that really matters.

We are in agreement. But, don't forget that ND does play five ACC football games a year, rotating among all members.

 

[ctchamps]

But you are not factoring in ND's goal to portray itself as the national, Catholic university, a football independent that has control over 7 games a year to schedule wherever and with whomever they want.

That identity, that marketing ability for the school (not the football program) is more important to ND that more TV money via the Big Ten or an ACC Network.

Big Ten people thought ND was about the most TV money and in 2010 thought that all they had to show was ND could make more money via the BTN and ND would run to the Big Ten.

They were wrong. ND had no interest in simply making more TV money by joining a football conference. It has other goals not shared by most other programs.

Just the opposite. Totally factoring it in. Just portraying the motivation behind it more negatively than you. Certainly there is a branding positive with independence.

Don't blame the Irish one bit for that. But there is an arrogance that is sustaining the marketing and the marketing is sustaining the arrogance. And that cycle will hurt the Irish and the ACC in the long run imo.

 

[TerryD]

By the way, I don't think that the ACC should wait on ND.

With 14 football members and ND as #15 for other sports, I think that they should invite UConn (#16) and a combo of Navy/Georgetown to get to 16 members in all sports to fight the Big Ten for the Northeast.

 

[Sea Goat]

But you are not factoring in ND's goal to portray itself as the national, Catholic university, a football independent that has control over 7 games a year to schedule wherever and with whomever they want.

That identity, that marketing ability for the school (not the football program) is more important to ND that more TV money via the Big Ten or an ACC Network.

Big Ten people thought ND was about the most TV money and in 2010 thought that all they had to show was ND could make more money via the BTN and ND would run to the Big Ten.

They were wrong. ND had no interest in simply making more TV money by joining a football conference. It has other goals not shared by most other programs.

We're not that slow - give us some credit. Its about the dinero. ND is a fine school, but this nationwide reach effort falls a little flat. In fact, it sounds more than a little parochial when you refer to yourself as "national, Catholic university." There are several national, Catholic universities I guess - like Georgetown and BC, but who cares if they're Catholic or whatever.

The best of the best universities in this country are all non-sectarian. That's just a fact. ND is very good, but let's not put it in any special category as far as prestige or academics are concerned. Its cache has been as much dependent on football as any thing else.