Non-Key Tweets

[FDNY99]

Here's the deal - whatever people think of the 3.6 mm people in CT, they mostly all are UConn fans and will watch UConn sports on cable (and demand that UConn sports be carried on their systems). That brings in the wealthiest portion of the NYC metro area and more to fray according to Mike Tranghese. (See Below) I am familiar with Buffalo - people will only watch SUNY Buffalo upon bribery, deep intoxication or a gun to their head. IMO, there will be zero following of SUNY Buffalo sports in NYC (and zero demand to add BTN to a cable system for SUNY sports).

Here's what Tranghese said:

Rutgers was accepted into the Big Ten last fall, with the widespread belief that the conference wanted a foothold in the New York metropolitan area. But while intending no disrespect to Rutgers, Tranghese said: “A lot of people don’t understand what makes New York tick. The two schools with the biggest impact in the New York market have been Syracuse and Connecticut.”

Is this true? Don't know for sure, but I have a multitude of friends in Fairfield County who are loyal, well-healed Husky fans and who follow the Huskies religiously.

Having grown up in eastern CT and now living in Port Chester NY right next to Greenwich..working in mid-town Manhattan..I can tell you that Rutgers and UCONN are the local schools that have NYC's attention. Rutgers has replaced Syracuse.

 

[Husky25]

I certainly agree. It is an intense mutual disdain and dislike.

In this case, though, it is not a good thing. That is why the "ND belongs in the Big Ten" crowd is dead wrong.

Other than being located in the Midwest, ND has nothing much in common with the Big Ten.

ND will not join the Big Ten, even though it could earn the most TV dollars and cut its travel costs the most by doing so.

The Big Ten is the absolute last place ND ever wants to be.

It thinks it will be "regionalized" there as a Midwest school.

Many of ND's students, fans and alumni and located in the Northeast. It wants Northeast exposure for that reason and Southeast exposure for recruiting and access to major markets there (Atlanta, Miami).

ND would be a bad fit in the Big Ten, being only one of two private schools in a huge, land grant public school conference.

ND believes that joining the Big Ten would place it under the thumb of Ohio State and especially Michigan (who rule the Big Ten), the latter school being considered the mortal enemy of ND.

ND doesn't want to join any conference in football. But, if it had to, it much prefers the ACC.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can kid yourself with all the demographic justification as you so choose, but the bottom line is the ACC gives Notre Dame 5 easier wins on average than the Big Ten would over have time. It's an easier route to the Playoff...period. They went from being affiliated with the "6th best" (Big East) conference to being affiliated with the 5th best conference. ND is like water in that respect. It will find the path of least resistance to relevancy, and who can blame them? It was afforded to them long ago...

 

[Exit 4]

quote]

Upstate NY -when including Orange and Putnam County as upstate NY (which is debatable) has something like 7 million people. Roughly 12MM of the states 19MM live in NYC, Rockland, Westchester, Suffolk and Nassau Counties.

 

[Dooley]

Wait...we still haven't reached the point of chaos?!?!?

An equally good point. I guess it depends on the tint and the shade of said tint of the glasses that you wear!

 

[whaler11]

You can bash ND all you like but they always play one of the toughest schedules in the country. They aren't ducking anyone.

 

[btstimpy]

Regarding business, ND and the BE did exactly what they felt was necessary at the time. ND was in a strong position in football and needed a home for its olympic sports. The BE was new and needed cache. So they made a deal that was mutually beneficial.

What many of us are warning our ACC friends about is the combination of purely business attitude and arrogance that ND has towards other entities. There was a loose cultural federation of universities in the BE that was beginning to develop stronger bonds. Had any of a number of things taken place the BE could have reached the level of other conferences. Those included ESPN offering more in the way of , the BE bb and football schools resolving their enmity and/or ND offering to go all in the conference. Any of those plays and the BE would not be just a bunch of Catholic schools.

There was/is a stronger cultural federation of alliance in the ACC. It was the four North Carolina schools, Virginia, and Maryland. If someone included GT in this cultural mix I wouldn't argue. The remainder of the ACC is not nearly as strongly connected culturally. It is why the Maryland's defection hit the ACC so hard. It struck at the cultural underpinning of the conference. It is why the Maryland alumni are so angry. There is definitely a lot of division amongst the various power brokers in that university who are divided over cultural vs. financial issues. How the future plays out for that University and it relationship to the B!G is uncertain.

ND gives an increase financial benefit to the ACC. And it gives the ACC greater exposure nationally. This is offset by the attitude ND has towards everyone else. It wouldn't align itself with universities in it's geographical footprint. It wouldn't align itself with entities that were culturally similar, the Catholic schools. It will never align itself with schools that have a different geographic footprint and religious perspective.

ND was not entirely innocent in the BE's demise. The are very capable of playing the business game that benefits them. They astutely evaluated the disharmonies within the BE and they utilized those disharmonies to their advantage. It would be correct to state that the individuals who are making decisions at ND are astute business people. It would also be correct to say that ND is exploitive and is burning a lot of bridges.

Entities that are me, myself and I can benefit others but they can be very dangerous if people are unaware of their nature. So ACC be aware of what the B!G already knows! Delaney would offer Buffalo a bid before ND. And those ND alumni that love sports should be aware of the future as well. There could come a time when ND's actions will create a backlash that will relegate the University as a backwater in sports. Personally I think the individuals making decisions at ND either don't believe this or believe that they can always do a mea culpa and cause those animosities to change before the situation for them reaches this point. Maybe they can, but that is an equally dangerous stance as the ACC believing ND will help them relative to the other power conferences.

ND has already helped the ACC. They have helped the ACC upgrade the ACC's bowl partner list. They have helped in making FSU happy and getting the GOR in place. The 3 ND football games in even years and 2 ND football games in odd years has added $1.5 million per year to each school. The GOR has added $2 million per year more to each school. ND being a nationally recognized brand makes an ACC Network more likely.

The only negative I see, and I hope it is only temporary, is that without fully joining in football, ND has the ACC in a holding pattern with 15 members in all sports and 14 in football. A 14 member league creates scheduling difficulty when it comes to playing the schools in the opposite division when you only have 8 games and a designated crossover. It will take 12 years to see the other teams at your home stadium. I don't like this. 16 members is much better. But if ND is to be one of the 16, the ACC has to sit in a holding pattern waiting on them. We'll do it for a while, but I don't like this longer term. If we go ahead and add 2 other schools, then we'll have to go to 20 eventually if ND decides to join.

 

[btstimpy]

Lol. Name one thing he got right about the Big Ten. You're absolutely right he knows nothing about ACC but he's batting zeros all around.

If you listen to E Gordon Gee, he doesn't get much right either as far as who will join the Big Ten. But E Gordon Gee does have visibility to what the Big Ten is thinking, and he has ties to that West Virginia bunch that Chris Lambert , the Dude of WV, is part of. Gee used to live in Morgantown, WV and is well known in that community.

 

[Sea Goat]

ND has already helped the ACC. They have helped the ACC upgrade the ACC's bowl partner list. They have helped in making FSU happy and getting the GOR in place. The 3 ND football games in even years and 2 ND football games in odd years has added $1.5 million per year to each school. The GOR has added $2 million per year more to each school. ND being a nationally recognized brand makes an ACC Network more likely.

The only negative I see, and I hope it is only temporary, is that without fully joining in football, ND has the ACC in a holding pattern with 15 members in all sports and 14 in football. A 14 member league creates scheduling difficulty when it comes to playing the schools in the opposite division when you only have 8 games and a designated crossover. It will take 12 years to see the other teams at your home stadium. I don't like this. 16 members is much better. But if ND is to be one of the 16, the ACC has to sit in a holding pattern waiting on them. We'll do it for a while, but I don't like this longer term. If we go ahead and add 2 other schools, then we'll have to go to 20 eventually if ND decides to join.

Beware of the Irish, they do things to suit themselves only. If they perceive an advantage elsewhere at the right moment they will drop you like a bad habit. I'm OK with that - but don't delude yourself into thinking that they will ever join the ACC unless the ACC can do more for them than they can do for the ACC.

 

[woomba]

If you listen to E Gordon Gee, he doesn't get much right either as far as who will join the Big Ten. But E Gordon Gee does have visibility to what the Big Ten is thinking, and he has ties to that West Virginia bunch that Chris Lambert , the Dude of WV, is part of. Gee used to live in Morgantown, WV and is well known in that community.

You need to prove the Dude's link to Gee - not why Gee would know something about conference realignment. His link to any credible sources, if any, stops at their secretary.

 

[btstimpy]

Beware of the Irish, they do things to suit themselves only. If they perceive an advantage elsewhere at the right moment they will drop you like a bad habit. I'm OK with that - but don't delude yourself into thinking that they will ever join the ACC unless the ACC can do more for them than they can do for the ACC.

I'm sort of used to schools doing things to suit themselves after being around North Carolina and Duke for so long. They do too. I don't see that as a big issue. Will I feel differently down the road? Who knows?

 

[btstimpy]

You need to prove the Dude's link to Gee - not why Gee would know something about conference realignment. His link to any credible sources, if any, stops at their secretary.

I don't have any taped conversations or email trails. But Gee's the only West Virginia guy I know in the Big Ten other than the coach of Michigan basketball, and Labert's alluded to his Ohio State Source before, not Michigan. You can believe as you wish.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

The Buffalo to the B1G is sheer lunacy.

Their athletic programs suck and they play in high school grade facilities.

We're talking about a bottom feeding MAC program that most everyone would be up in arms if they got an AAC invite and now people are talking them up to the B1G?

 

[upstater]

Wouldn't the 3m increase for 14 teams mean that ND Olympics and 2 or 3 of the games played in Acc football venues are worth 42 million? How'd you get to 4?

$20m in TV rights x .20% = $4m

 

[woomba]

I don't have any taped conversations or email trails. But Gee's the only West Virginia guy I know in the Big Ten other than the coach of Michigan basketball, and Labert's alluded to his Ohio State Source before, not Michigan. You can believe as you wish.

If Gee really wanted to spread random rumors to spread panic to another conference he could easily do so via more legit channels than twitter - that would be a heck lot more effective as well.

 

[btstimpy]

The Buffalo to the B1G is sheer lunacy.

Their athletic programs suck and they play in high school grade facilities.

We're talking about a bottom feeding MAC program that most everyone would be up in arms if they got an AAC invite and now people are talking them up to the B1G?

I don't think it would happen. I do understand why the Big Ten would analyze SUNY Buffalo though. AAU, large state research university, large market in New York State, contiguous state.

 

[upstater]

Besides Academics, what does Buffalo really bring to the table. To quote Coach Winters from The Program, "Yeah, but when was the last time 80,000 people showed up to watch a kid do a damm chemistry experiment? Why don't you stick the bow-tie up your ?"

This quote makes no sense when you think about it. It's like saying, yeah, some people like to watch big men chasing a pig's skin stuffed with leather, but when's the last time a football saved hundreds of millions of people from a disease? Never understood that quote. Is it about money? If so, then Winters wants a bow-tie for company.

UConn certainly has more to offer and has a higher ceiling. Nationally recognized athletics, tremendous state gov't support, increasing academia prestige and can complete the delivery of the an attentive portion of the largest TV market in the country. Buffalo can offer a contiguous state. Why that is important, I don't know.

Easy there. Buffalo just got a billion from the state for its UB2020 build-out. It's got the same backing UConn does. In addition, since its tuition is still under $7k a year, it has a lot of headroom if it wants to get even more money. It's still doing 2x as much in research as UConn, and its goals are to increase that by 40%.

Say all you want about TV markets and DMAs, Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey are all pretty much professional sports markets, where college and amateur sports are an after thought. Connecticut brings attentive viewers of the college, amateur, and minor leagues. Of course this is my impression more than based on anything really concrete...

MAC schools are talking about dropping out altogether. There is no doubt at all that this rumor is made up and bogus since schools like Buffalo are looking at packing it in right now.

 

[upstater]

The ACC has a separate contract with Notre Dame that stipulates that iof the Irish joim a conference before 2027, it will be the ACC.

A suit for breach would result in claims for huge damages. It ain't going to happen, anyway.

What damages? How can they be damaged? What's the penalty in other words?

 

[woomba]

MAC schools are talking about dropping out altogether. There is no doubt at all that this rumor is made up and bogus since schools like Buffalo are looking at packing it in right now.

You mean the entire conference or just certain schools? I can see UMass and EMU calling it quits...not sure about the rest, although it wouldn't shock me if they went down to being a 8-10 member league someday.

 

[upstater]

Yes, interesting indeed. Buffalo Lion is certainly our most articulate and supportive 'non-fan' message board booster. As for SUNY Buffalo, yes - it has size and AAU status, but hard to see the B1G going down that rabit hole in the end. Unlike most states, NY's regional interests have competed and diluted the state brand across all big four university campuses and smaller colleges in the system. While I could see the B1G overlooking the lack of athletic accomplishments, its hard to ignore the state's long history of mixed/tangled support for its schools. When you ask NYers about the SUNY system you'll get seven different answers about which school is the flagship and I dont think there is any real will in state politics to change that. In other words, if I were the B1G, I wouldnt want a school which doesnt have clear political support/policy to be the state's flagship.

New York is a big state. It's not like Connecticut with one flagship. UB is the size of UConn. And, despite mixed support for the SUNYs, they have always been much better supported than UConn. Academically it's doing just fine. Sports is another discussion altogether. And there are 4 R1 universities in the state of New York, that's acknowledged by everyone. Many states have more than one flagship, esp. big states. Florida and Florida St is one example. Texas and Texas A&M is another. The term "flagship" itself has several definitions, and is used in different ways. U. Cal. Berkeley calls itself the flagship since it is the first U. Cal., but the Chancellor of U. Cal. has also told Berkeley that they are not to use that term anymore since it is on par with the likes of UCLA and San Diego, etc. Some smaller states like North Dakota have labelled both state universities as flagships.

New York state is too big to have a single flagship. The student population of such a school would make it the biggest school in the universe. As for political support, they just passed a $1 billion spending bill for UB2020.

The athletics talk is hot air. UB will eventually downsize that.

 

[upstater]

You mean the entire conference or just certain schools? I can see UMass and EMU calling it quits...not sure about the rest, although it wouldn't shock me if they went down to being a 8-10 member league someday.

Some others too. Not the whole conference.

 

[TerryD]

Beware of the Irish, they do things to suit themselves only. If they perceive an advantage elsewhere at the right moment they will drop you like a bad habit. I'm OK with that - but don't delude yourself into thinking that they will ever join the ACC unless the ACC can do more for them than they can do for the ACC.

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

 

[Fishy]

I don't think SUNY Buffalo is a good choice myself. But I can understand why the Big Ten might. AAU and Cable Boxes in a big state. It fits their model perfectly.

With all due respect, you're lost in space if you think Buffalo fits anyone's model.

For all intents and purposes, it's not the state of New York. There is a complete disconnect between Western New York and the parts of New York that, for lack of a better word, matter. (Capital District, Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island.)

Western New York has the population of Pittsburgh, but spread out over about 10,000 sq. miles.

 

[ctchamps]

ND has already helped the ACC. They have helped the ACC upgrade the ACC's bowl partner list. They have helped in making FSU happy and getting the GOR in place. The 3 ND football games in even years and 2 ND football games in odd years has added $1.5 million per year to each school. The GOR has added $2 million per year more to each school. ND being a nationally recognized brand makes an ACC Network more likely.

The only negative I see, and I hope it is only temporary, is that without fully joining in football, ND has the ACC in a holding pattern with 15 members in all sports and 14 in football. A 14 member league creates scheduling difficulty when it comes to playing the schools in the opposite division when you only have 8 games and a designated crossover. It will take 12 years to see the other teams at your home stadium. I don't like this. 16 members is much better. But if ND is to be one of the 16, the ACC has to sit in a holding pattern waiting on them. We'll do it for a while, but I don't like this longer term. If we go ahead and add 2 other schools, then we'll have to go to 20 eventually if ND decides to join.

I acknowledged paragraph one.
Paragraph two is the danger that the B!G and the BE have experienced. You are only one of millions of ACC fans. But I feel your statement echoes the wider population. I liken it to the guy who says I can take cocaine and not be addicted to it even as he observes those around him who failed. ND's immediate benefits will make those in decision making matters state the positive and over look the negative until the damage is done.

 

[upstater]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

I'm going to disagree with this. Some schools have acted more reasonably than ND in the past. ND had no business getting in the middle of the restructure in 2004 when all 8 football schools were getting ready to leave with the BCS autobid. It was ND that screwed the BE royally back then, and for what? To forcibly keep the schools together for another 7 years? It made no sense then and it did real damage to these schools, and ND didn't get anything out of it. ND should have let the football schools leave with the autobid and joined the ACC back then. And you're wrong if you believe that many schools wouldn't have done so.

ND was petty back then.

 

[Afroabe224]

The Buffalo to the B1G is sheer lunacy.

Their athletic programs suck and they play in high school grade facilities.

We're talking about a bottom feeding MAC program that most everyone would be up in arms if they got an AAC invite and now people are talking them up to the B1G?

Agree 110%. B1G fans hate the Rutgers/Maryland additions. There would be riots from Lincoln to State College if the B1G even considered this Buffalo nonsense.

 

[Sea Goat]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

I said: "I'm OK with that". My point is that the ACC is delusional if they think ND is going to act out of anything but self interest. This includes ND joining the ACC as real conference member at any time. I take it you agree with that?

 

[upstater]

With all due respect, you're lost in space if you think Buffalo fits anyone's model.

For all intents and purposes, it's not the state of New York. There is a complete disconnect between Western New York and the parts of New York that, for lack of a better word, matter. (Capital District, Hudson Valley, New York City, Long Island.)

Western New York has the population of Pittsburgh, but spread out over about 10,000 sq. miles.

The big difference is in per capita income. There are enough people here to make it interesting, but this is a poor area (relatively). Between Buffalo/Niagara Falls/Rochester, there are 2.3m people. When you consider that these towns are 1 hour away by car, that's not an insignificant amount of people to live within an hour of one another. Culturally, the west side of the Niagara River in Ontario has little interest in Buffalo other than shopping, though the Bills get 20% of their season ticket holders from there, but businesswise, an hour's drive from Buffalo brings you to Hamilton and another million or so. One hour and a half gets you Toronto.

This region is actually a lot more compact and populated than any other in NY State other than NYC, and that includes the Capital District and Hudson Valley.

I am absolutely not making any argument for their athletics or TV market. Personally, I think they should join the B1G for D1 hockey. They would take over rather quickly.

 

[ctchamps]

Doesn't everyone? Didn't WVU bail on the BE/AAC because it was in their own best interests?

Why didn't they stay to help their "conference brethren" get a better TV deal?

Syracuse? Pitt? Miami? BC? VT?

Texas A&M? Nebraska? Missouri?

Name me one school that doesn't "drop you like a bad habit" to better themselves, keep an advantageous position or serve their own best self interests?

Should UConn not "drop its AAC conference mates" if it gets an invitation to a better conference? Should UConn stay in the AAC to help Memphis and SMU?

Every school acts in its own best self interest. The only differences with ND is that it deems independence, rather than football conference membership, as in its own best interests.

That, and as someone said above, they have more (or better) cards to play.

If an AD or president is not acting solely in his/her school's best self interest, they need to be fired.

Everyone should value themselves first and foremost. But there are collaborative efforts that are better when the group has a single objective and the individual needs are sometimes sublimated. This is the entire framework of the B!G. Certainly there is animosity amongst members that ebbs and flows and changes amongst allies. And things could crumble quickly for that conference. From my perspective, if I have to value the two conferences, the ACC + ND vs. the B!G there is not one bit of doubt who's shares I'd buy. If ND went all in with the ACC then I'd most likely buy both. ND and the ACC are playing the short term game which they are playing a lot better than a lot of other players with weaker hands. But this will end up hurting both ND and the ACC in the future because they are misunderstanding the new paradigm in college sports.

If ND agreed to join the ACC, there is an increased chance for an ACC network. Otherwise the chances are small and the chances for success are very small. Without a network the ACC will fall further and further behind those that have networks in in $$$ and leverage to decide their fate.

 

[TerryD]

I'm going to disagree with this. Some schools have acted more reasonably than ND in the past. ND had no business getting in the middle of the restructure in 2004 when all 8 football schools were getting ready to leave with the BCS autobid. It was ND that screwed the BE royally back then, and for what? To forcibly keep the schools together for another 7 years? It made no sense then and it did real damage to these schools, and ND didn't get anything out of it. ND should have let the football schools leave with the autobid and joined the ACC back then. And you're wrong if you believe that many schools wouldn't have done so.

ND was petty back then.

Well, it did help ND in 2003. It kept the BE alive for ND's other sports and kept football independent. The ACC was not offering a partial deal in 2003.

But, in this thread, ND is getting blamed for:

1) Trying to keep the conference together, and

2) Not trying to keep the conference together

...at the same time?

Question:

Why didn't the football playing schools of the Big East just use the "get out of jail free card" before 2010?

Why didn't they split from the BE basketball schools and ND without an exit fee, keep their credits and start their own all sports conference?

How did ND keep them from using this option from 2004 until 2010?

Why didn't those schools band together, get their own TV deal and agree on which schools to expand this new all sports conference with?

I have never seen any real answers to those questions anywhere.

 

[TerryD]

I said: "I'm OK with that". My point is that the ACC is delusional if they think ND is going to act out of anything but self interest. This includes ND joining the ACC as real conference member at any time. I take it you agree with that?

Well, ND is a full, "real conference member" of the ACC in 24 sports, except for football and hockey.

But, yes, ND will not join the ACC as a football member unless it is clearly in ND's own self interest to do so.

I don't think it will ever happen. I don't think that "conference champs only" playoffs will ever occur.

As far as I can tell, that is the only thing that will force ND to join a conference for football.