NCAA Tournament Day 3 Thread

[nelsonmuntz]

People will inevitably bash the Big East following this weekend, but honestly, other than Villanova, everyone pretty much played to seed. Providence was a minimal favorite over Dayton, Georgetown was underdogs against Utah, and St. Johns never had a chance without Obekpa. Hell, Xavier finished sixth in the league and is now in the sweet sixteen - that alone should put to rest the notion that this is a mid-major league. That being said, Villanova nailed the league in the balls by flaming out in the second round - the league is already low profile and they desperately needed some recognition. A final four team would have done just that, and worse yet, their best team is now a punch line.

As for the ACC, undefeated is undefeated and there is nothing I can say to make that change. They have proven to be the best conference. But if people think there is this vast divide between the P5 and everyone else...I don't see it. The ACC could easily have three or four teams out with a couple shots/calls that went the other way.

They didn't go the other way, so that doesn't matter. This tournament has gone very badly for UConn and the AAC. You better believe that every major program we are recruiting against will tell recruits that a P5 split is coming and if they aren't at a P5 school they might as well be at Bowling Green. 2 bids for the league, the non-P5 didn't show up (with quite a bit of help from the refs), and the P5 will be getting all the press for the next two weeks, which is all anyone remembers anyway.

I wish they would just cancel the rest of the tournament, because you can bet that the gap between the P5 and the non-P5 will be a big topic during the games.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Well then these non P5 teams need to step the up no? They can't expect UConn to win it every year. Jokes aside that Big East RPI didn't do them much good once the games started. Villanova as usual is the biggest head scratcher. Jay Wright is just a perpetual under achiever it seems.

I believe that Autonomy was a shot across the bow, and pretty much everyone that matters, from TV down to referees, is trying to get on the good side of the P5. Forget about seeing a fairly officiated game again.

 

[sammydabiz]

Ballsy move to go for that block on the 3. Could've easily been called for a foul.

Then again, it's ND, so maybe not.

What game was it where Bazz did the same thing by blocking an opponents 3 at the end of the game? It was a clean block, but I was still screaming at the TV because it wasn't needed and could of easily had a whistle blow giving them 3 shots.

 

[BUHusky]

Dana O'Neil @ESPNDanaOneil
Mike Brey just announced he lost his mother to a heart attack this morning

I can't even imagine...

 

[champs99and04]

They didn't go the other way, so that doesn't matter. This tournament has gone very badly for UConn and the AAC. You better believe that every major program we are recruiting against will tell recruits that a P5 split is coming and if they aren't at a P5 school they might as well be at Bowling Green. 2 bids for the league, the non-P5 didn't show up (with quite a bit of help from the refs), and the P5 will be getting all the press for the next two weeks, which is all anyone remembers anyway.

I wish they would just cancel the rest of the tournament, because you can bet that the gap between the P5 and the non-P5 will be a big topic during the games.

By my count, six of the twenty-four remaining teams are from non-P5 conferences, and two of them (Gonzaga and Northern Iowa) are capable of making the final four. Unless you have some evidence to prove otherwise, I'm not sure these ratios are too far off the norm.

But, if you're arguing that this tournament has been a terrible result for UConn, I cannot disagree.

 

[aceboon]

What game was it where Bazz did the same thing by blocking an opponents 3 at the end of the game? It was a clean block, but I was still screaming at the TV because it wasn't needed and could of easily had a whistle blow giving them 3 shots.

Probably the Texas game his freshman year when he got all ball on the way up on Corey Joesph's 3 point attempt. Joseph was able to regather jus a bit and get an attempt off but it wasn't his natural form and preserved the game. It was a risky gamble by Bazz but Joseph was going to be able get a pretty good look over Bazz with the height difference if he got a clean attempt off.

 

[sammydabiz]

Probably the Texas game his freshman year when he got all ball on the way up on Corey Joesph's 3 point attempt. Joseph was able to regather jus a bit and get an attempt off but it wasn't his natural form and preserved the game. It was a risky gamble by Bazz but Joseph was going to be able get a pretty good look over Bazz with the height difference if he got a clean attempt off.

Yes! Thank you Ace, it was driving me nutz

 

[caw]

People will inevitably bash the Big East following this weekend, but honestly, other than Villanova, everyone pretty much played to seed. Providence was a minimal favorite over Dayton, Georgetown was underdogs against Utah, and St. Johns never had a chance without Obekpa. Hell, Xavier finished sixth in the league and is now in the sweet sixteen - that alone should put to rest the notion that this is a mid-major league. That being said, Villanova nailed the league in the balls by flaming out in the second round - the league is already low profile and they desperately needed some recognition. A final four team would have done just that, and worse yet, their best team is now a punch line.

As for the ACC, undefeated is undefeated and there is nothing I can say to make that change. They have proven to be the best conference. But if people think there is this vast divide between the P5 and everyone else...I don't see it. The ACC could easily have three or four teams out with a couple shots/calls that went the other way.

If you discount the PC and Georgetown loss because they weren't favored (or weren't by much), then you can not give much credit to Xavier. They beat an 11 and a 14 to make the sweet sixteen. Yes they took advantage but it wasn't some great success that validates the conference.

 

[UCFBfan]

They didn't go the other way, so that doesn't matter. This tournament has gone very badly for UConn and the AAC. You better believe that every major program we are recruiting against will tell recruits that a P5 split is coming and if they aren't at a P5 school they might as well be at Bowling Green. 2 bids for the league, the non-P5 didn't show up (with quite a bit of help from the refs), and the P5 will be getting all the press for the next two weeks, which is all anyone remembers anyway.

I wish they would just cancel the rest of the tournament, because you can bet that the gap between the P5 and the non-P5 will be a big topic during the games.

But UConn should kill the football program so they can remain lumped with the non-p5 forever, right? Last I checked the Big East is not in the P5. Just want to make sure I have your narrative straight because what you're saying here sure sounds like it doesn't fit what you keep spewing. Without football, there is no P5 for UConn.

 

[djct1999]

Delaney take note..... The ACC is 9-0.

 

[mauconnfan]

March Madness is the best and I can't get enough of it. But outside of the tourney, the product is incredibly inferior.

No it's not. Well yes you're right, the product as in the players is. But the attitudes in which they play and actual will to compete is so much more fun at the college level it's not close. But to each their own as they say.

For me March Madness ends and there's nothing until baseball gets to the All Star game and even then, yuck in comparison. (I do like the hockey playoffs when the Rangers are good so may be something there again)

 

[FfldCntyFan]

But UConn should kill the football program so they can remain lumped with the non-p5 forever, right? Last I checked the Big East is not in the P5. Just want to make sure I have your narrative straight because what you're saying here sure sounds like it doesn't fit what you keep spewing. Without football, there is no P5 for UConn.

Give Waylon a break. He's just pissed that the Big East just demonstrated that they are among the non-power conferences. Basically confirming that he was wrong and the bulk of the Boneyard was correct all along in that assessment.

 

[djct1999]

No it's not. Well yes you're right, the product as in the players is. But the attitudes in which they play and actual will to compete is so much more fun at the college level it's not close. But to each their own as they say.

For me March Madness ends and there's nothing until baseball gets to the All Star game and even then, yuck in comparison. (I do like the hockey playoffs when the Rangers are good so may be something there again)

5 seconds left, the team with possession is down 1 with one last chance, 17000 fans holding on for dear life, a team's season on the brink....................i don't even care what two teams are playing, but I don't think there is anything better in all of sports. Only March Madness brings that.

 

[mauconnfan]

You would think that by now, especially after this debacle, the committee's will look harder at where they seed Jay Wrights teams? I mean they just don't get it done. Great to shoot the ball well all year with 3-4 guards in the lineup but when you need to get some rebounds and can't in a potential 6 game run, you have no shot. Don't think it needs to be proven any more than the last few years - it's a great product for the regular season but the formula doesn't work come game time!

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Give Waylon a break. He's just pissed that the Big East just demonstrated that they are among the non-power conferences. Basically confirming that he was wrong and the bulk of the Boneyard was correct all along in that assessment.

The Big East got 6 teams in and 5 won a game, so their ncaa was a lot better than the AAC's. Your argument was that there was no difference between the two leagues.

If, on the other hand, you are celebrating the P5 dominance and biased officiating, then you are trolling, and should go back to the message board of whatever your new adopted team is. There are some very disturbing trends in this tournament from a UConn perspective, and we shouldn't be celebrating them just because you don't like Providence.

 

[J187Money]

If Gonzaga and Wichita go down tomorrow, there will be 1 non-P5 team in the Sweet 16. 2-3 more years of that, and the P5 will take the tournament with them, and we will be gutting UConn's athletic budget.

This is reaching. Even for you.

 

[billybud]

I think that the middle of the ACC sometimes is under rated....

NC State lost to Clemson, BC, Miami, UNC, Duke, Virginia, and Notre Dame (and Cincy and Wofford early), but they have come on to beat LSU and Nova in the tourney. Their length helped them over Villanova.

Villanova seemed to have problems against the Wolfpack defense and those taller bodies with stretchy arms.

 

[alexd]

The Big East got 6 teams in and 5 won a game, so their ncaa was a lot better than the AAC's. Your argument was that there was no difference between the two leagues.

If, on the other hand, you are celebrating the P5 dominance and biased officiating, then you are trolling, and should go back to the message board of whatever your new adopted team is. There are some very disturbing trends in this tournament from a UConn perspective, and we shouldn't be celebrating them just because you don't like Providence.

Four NBE teams won a game. PC and SJU lost in Rd 1.

 

[upstater]

I think that the middle of the ACC sometimes is under rated....

NC State lost to Clemson, BC, Miami, UNC, Duke, Virginia, and Notre Dame (and Cincy and Wofford early), but they have come on to beat LSU and Nova in the tourney. Their length helped them over Villanova.

Villanova seemed to have problems against the Wolfpack defense and those taller bodies with stretchy arms.

Are you implying that LSU and Villanova are good? Last year, UConn had 100x more difficulty with St. Joseph's than it had with this very same (i.e. same players) Villanova team.

They are paper tigers.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

The Big East got 6 teams in and 5 won a game, so their ncaa was a lot better than the AAC's. Your argument was that there was no difference between the two leagues.

If, on the other hand, you are celebrating the P5 dominance and biased officiating, then you are trolling, and should go back to the message board of whatever your new adopted team is. There are some very disturbing trends in this tournament from a UConn perspective, and we shouldn't be celebrating them just because you don't like Providence.

I am not celebrating the P-5 dominance. I personally find it repulsive that the few on top are continually working to further marginalize everyone else. I also am not claiming that there is no difference between the two leagues, merely that there is not a whole lot of overall difference and that whether a conference is the best of the mid-majors or a bit above the middle of the pack of the mid-majors, it is still a mid-major.

I am not celebrating anything, merely pointing out that dreaming of the day where we give up on football and align our basketball future with other schools who will never play major football is a fools errand. Yes, regardless of whether there is a formal split or merely a continuously growing rift between the P-5 and everyone else, the day will arrive when the AAC, the (new) Big East and every other non P-5 conference will be on the wrong side.

Additionally, while the committee did give the (new) Big East repect similar to what a P-5 conference would receive, that conference as a whole did more to prove the critics right than any one of the critics could have hoped for. Georgetown, Providence, St John's and even their standard bearer Villanova all made it clear that their records were a bit suspect and their RPI's were not as shiny as they appeared from a distance.

 

[itgoeslike]

People will inevitably bash the Big East following this weekend, but honestly, other than Villanova, everyone pretty much played to seed.

I have to disagree. The NBE had 6 highly seeded teams yet 2 teams didn't win a game, 3 teams didn't make it past the round of 32 and the only team to do so beat an 11th seed (that played an intense game 24 hours earlier) and a 14th seed. Half the NBE teams lost to a lower seed and none has beaten a higher seed.

Providence was a minimal favorite over Dayton, Georgetown was underdogs against Utah, and St. Johns never had a chance without Obekpa. Hell, Xavier finished sixth in the league and is now in the sweet sixteen - that alone should put to rest the notion that this is a mid-major league.

Disagree again. Providence was a 6 seed against an 11 seed (which played another 11 seed 24 hours earlier (granted it was a virtual road game). Georgetown wasn't an "underdog", they were a 4 against a 5 (although very few thought they were a 4).

Hell, Xavier finished sixth in the league and is now in the sweet sixteen - that alone should put to rest the notion that this is a mid-major league.

Disagree again. As stated above. Xavier beat an 11th seed (that played an intense game 24 hours earlier) and a 14th seed (which was in it until late in the second half).

Villanova nailed the league in the balls by flaming out in the second round - the league is already low profile and they desperately needed some recognition. A final four team would have done just that, and worse yet, their best team is now a punch line.

We agree here. Villanova was a legit Elite Eight team and really needed to win. Butler was solid too. Can Xavier beat Arizona? It's unlikely.

The NBE flameout along with the Big 12's less than stellar performance could suggest that RPI ratings built on, at least partially, not having low RPI teams in your conference doesn't make your teams any better. Few can argue that the NBE didn't enjoy pretty nice seeding.

 

[huskyjawz]

People will inevitably bash the Big East following this weekend, but honestly, other than Villanova, everyone pretty much played to seed. Providence was a minimal favorite over Dayton, Georgetown was underdogs against Utah, and St. Johns never had a chance without Obekpa. Hell, Xavier finished sixth in the league and is now in the sweet sixteen - that alone should put to rest the notion that this is a mid-major league. That being said, Villanova nailed the league in the balls by flaming out in the second round - the league is already low profile and they desperately needed some recognition. A final four team would have done just that, and worse yet, their best team is now a punch line.

As for the ACC, undefeated is undefeated and there is nothing I can say to make that change. They have proven to be the best conference. But if people think there is this vast divide between the P5 and everyone else...I don't see it. The ACC could easily have three or four teams out with a couple shots/calls that went the other way.

Is this the best tournament start by a conference, ever? Has to be, no?

 

[itgoeslike]

By my count, six of the twenty-four remaining teams are from non-P5 conferences, and two of them (Gonzaga and Northern Iowa) are capable of making the final four. Unless you have some evidence to prove otherwise, I'm not sure these ratios are too far off the norm.

I agree with this. Northern Iowa, Wichita State, Gonzaga are good teams. Dayton has the potential to surprise. SDSU has a tough matchup but you never know.

 

[upstater]

While I didn't have a ton of faith in SMU and Cincy, it's hard to talk about the AAC's performance since Cincy was never getting past Kentucky and SMU got jobbed. SMU should be S16 right now, and the AAC should have as many S16 teams as the NBE.

 

[Scoe]

You would think that by now, especially after this debacle, the committee's will look harder at where they seed Jay Wrights teams? I mean they just don't get it done. Great to shoot the ball well all year with 3-4 guards in the lineup but when you need to get some rebounds and can't in a potential 6 game run, you have no shot. Don't think it needs to be proven any more than the last few years - it's a great product for the regular season but the formula doesn't work come game time!

Its ok I'm sure Jay Wright is lining up his next commercial, it wouldn't shock me if he is in the CBS studio today lol.

 

[tzznandrew]

Disagree again. Providence was a 6 seed against an 11 seed (which played another 11 seed 24 hours earlier (granted it was a virtual road game). Georgetown wasn't an "underdog", they were a 4 against a 5 (although very few thought they were a 4).

Providence vs. Dayton, in Dayton. Dayton was roughly equal to PC in all metrics. It was a toss-up despite the seeds.

And Georgetown was quite literally an underdog. By 4-5 points. The betting public knew Utah was good enough to be a 3 seed or so. They had a higher RPI and much better advanced metrics than the Hoyas. Georgetown should have been a 5 or 6 seed.

The fact that the committee was stupid in their seeds doesn't mean that Georgetown should have won. Everyone knew Utah was by far the strongest 5 seed. I would have picked Stephen F Austin against any other 5 seed but Utah.

I take most of your points, but again, you can't just look at seeds. Dayton and Utah were under-seeded. PC and Georgetown were overseeded.

Villanova should have won that game. I know some are taking glee from their loss, but they were a legit 1 seed in resume, and probably really a Top 5-6 team. They just don't seem to play well in the tourney, for whatever reason.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

While I didn't have a ton of faith in SMU and Cincy, it's hard to talk about the AAC's performance since Cincy was never getting past Kentucky and SMU got jobbed. SMU should be S16 right now, and the AAC should have as many S16 teams as the NBE.

I saw a map somewhere on whether the Call in the SMU game was correct
It was Something like 58% to 42% against the call
On a state by state basis it was
every state but Calif and Oregon seeing it as a bad call
That's pretty overwhelming especially with the media trying hard to make a case for the call.
Even, PAC states , like ARIZ, Utah, Wash, Colo went against UCLA
The call didn't pass the smell test.
I hope that ref is enjoying his vacation in Cabo.

 

[champs99and04]

I have to disagree. The NBE had 6 highly seeded teams yet 2 teams didn't win a game, 3 teams didn't make it past the round of 32 and the only team to do so beat an 11th seed (that played an intense game 24 hours earlier) and a 14th seed. Half the NBE teams lost to a lower seed and none has beaten a higher seed.



Disagree again. Providence was a 6 seed against an 11 seed (which played another 11 seed 24 hours earlier (granted it was a virtual road game). Georgetown wasn't an "underdog", they were a 4 against a 5 (although very few thought they were a 4).



Disagree again. As stated above. Xavier beat an 11th seed (that played an intense game 24 hours earlier) and a 14th seed (which was in it until late in the second half).



We agree here. Villanova was a legit Elite Eight team and really needed to win. Butler was solid too. Can Xavier beat Arizona? It's unlikely.

The NBE flameout along with the Big 12's less than stellar performance could suggest that RPI ratings built on, at least partially, not having low RPI teams in your conference doesn't make your teams any better. Few can argue that the NBE didn't enjoy pretty nice seeding.

1. Honest question: are you surprised Providence lost to Dayton? Are you surprised Georgetown lost to Utah? I'm not. As stated, other than Villanova going down to N.C. State, the conference more or less confirmed what we already knew (a bunch of top 25ish teams mixed in with one really good team).

2. Dayton played 48 hours earlier, not 24. I doubt fatigue was much of a factor.

3. See above. Also, 14-seed or not, that Georgia State team was legit. Xavier shouldn't apologize for their sweet sixteen berth.

4. Yup, Villanova really screwed the league. There's no way around it.

5. The RPI is never going to be a great predictor of future performance. I think it does a decent job of rating a league's depth and overall strength. The reason the ACC was third was because they had a bunch of bad teams while the Big 12 and Big East didn't - I think everybody knew the ACC had the best upper half.

 

[itgoeslike]

Providence vs. Dayton, in Dayton. Dayton was roughly equal to PC in all metrics. It was a toss-up despite the seeds.

And Georgetown was quite literally an underdog. By 4-5 points. The betting public knew Utah was good enough to be a 3 seed or so. They had a higher RPI and much better advanced metrics than the Hoyas. Georgetown should have been a 5 or 6 seed.

The fact that the committee was stupid in their seeds doesn't mean that Georgetown should have won. Everyone knew Utah was by far the strongest 5 seed. I would have picked Stephen F Austin against any other 5 seed but Utah.

I take most of your points, but again, you can't just look at seeds. Dayton and Utah were under-seeded. PC and Georgetown were overseeded.

Villanova should have won that game. I know some are taking glee from their loss, but they were a legit 1 seed in resume, and probably really a Top 5-6 team. They just don't seem to play well in the tourney, for whatever reason.

I'm not sure where we disagree. My point was that the NBE teams were over-seeded and underperformed even with better seeding. I also said Dayton was under-seeded and called the matchup an 8/9 game in an earlier post. Providence got an unlucky draw by playing Dayton in Dayton. However, would Providence prefer to have been an 11 seed playing Boise State in a play-in game, followed by a 6th seed matchup, say against SMU? Probably not, most teams would take the 6th seed. Also, if Georgetown got a 5th seed they may have had to play S F Austin (like Utah did). I wouldn't want that matchup. Lastly, I don't see how anyone could characterize this performance as a success for the NBE, especially by using Xavier who beat an 11 seed and 14 seed as proof of their legitimacy.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm not sure where we disagree. My point was that the NBE teams were over-seeded and underperformed even with better seeding. I also said Dayton was under-seeded and called the matchup an 8/9 game in an earlier post. Providence got an unlucky draw by playing Dayton in Dayton. However, would Providence prefer to have been an 11 seed playing Boise State in a play-in game, followed by a 6th seed matchup, say against SMU? Probably not, most teams would take the 6th seed. Also, if Georgetown got a 5th seed they may have had to play S F Austin (like Utah did). I wouldn't want that matchup. Lastly, I don't see how anyone could characterize this performance as a success for the NBE, especially by using Xavier who beat an 11 seed and 14 seed as proof of their legitimacy.

I don't disagree with any of this. I disagreed with your point that both PC and Georgetown underperformed and weren't "underdogs."

My suggestion was that both teams played about what you would expect, given the circumstances. There was little chance of Georgetown beating Utah, and PC/Dayton was a toss-up, regardless of the seeds.

The rest of your points are fair. The BE didn't come out of this tournament looking particularly good. Neither did the BXII, though.