NBA Playoffs

[tzznandrew]

Jordan failing to make the playoffs on the Wizards is a stain. That happened and for some reason it's not held against him. That was his team and they stunk.

Behold, the 2001-2002 Wizards, for which Jordan played 60 games:

 

[tzznandrew]

Behold, the 2002-2003 Wizards:

That these two teams finished 10th and 9th respectively in any conference boggles the mind.

 

[tzznandrew]

Also, like I said, LeBron's career isn't done yet. Let's see if he's still carrying teams, putting up 20ppg, when he's 40.

 

[superjohn]

"Jordan would have won eight straight titles if he didn't retire" has never been an argument that does much for me. There is a huge difference between being the best and winning every year. The wear and tear he saved his body by sitting those two seasons is unquantifiable. And if you want to appeal to Jordan's will to win, well, he was on the floor when they lost to Orlando in '95. The guy was mortal, even if just barely. Otherwise, let's go ahead and give Shaq credit for all those years he wasn't in shape and assume he would have won the title.

Peak Wade was better than peak Pippen, but LeBron really only got one year out of him, and he was far more inconsistent in the playoffs than people remember. In hindsight, they weren't a great fit together. It wasn't really until they started surrounding LeBron with shooters - Miller, Battier, Jones, Allen, etc. - that those Heat teams took off. Bosh was a stud, but he got badly outplayed by Duncan in the 2013 finals, putting up a goose egg in game 7 and averaging an empty 12 points for the series. You can debate the merits of Kyrie and Love, but LeBron only played two full postseasons with them. They won the title one year and the next a 73 win team added Kevin Durant.

Jordan, meanwhile, got Pippen's entire prime. All of it. And when he retired before the '94 season, the Bulls won fifty-five games without him. Go ahead and tell me which team LeBron has ever played for is winning 55 games in his absence. 2013 could maybe win 50.

Prior to this point, I sided with Jordan in this debate simply because he doesn't have a stain on his resume like the 2011 Finals. I also had questions about whether LeBron was mentally unstable enough to do the things to win that Jordan did (call it competitiveness if you prefer).

But after last night, I'm about ready to flip. LeBron might just be better. Scoring - specifically one on one, in high leverage situations - was the one area Michael had him beat. Given the fact that LeBron is averaging 35 PPG on 55% from the floor (what?) while still hoisting over five 3's a game, I'm no longer sure that edge is enough to compensate for LeBron being better in other areas.

What happened in '95? Jordan came back after missing close to 2 years trying to be a professional baseball player. The team was pretty bad without him, I know the guy seemed superhuman but coming off of playing a completely different sport for the past 2 years and only playing 20 games, you can forgive him for not being at the height of his powers. I would be absolutely shocked if they don't win at least 1 of those years he was gone and then his whole second premature retirement thing. He was still far and away the best player in the league and just got bored with it all. His dad being murdered and boredom were the only things keeping him from more titles.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Also, like I said, LeBron's career isn't done yet. Let's see if he's still carrying teams, putting up 20ppg, when he's 40.

I'm really looking forward to what LeBron is doing as a 38-39 year old. He should be passing Kareem if he can keep a pace of only losing 2 ppg per year going forward. Will be so interesting to see where he is and how his game has changed. I hope he's playing off the ball in Philly with Simmons and Embiid entering their true primes. What a scary team that could be.

Given he's playing his best basketball of his career in year 15...

Was MJ playing his best ball in year 15? Or even as a 33 year old? That second question is an honest one; the averages are still great and right around his career average, but that's the case with Bron this year and he's clearly playing his best given the team he's carrying

Another genuine question: how close were players like Malone, Barkely, and other greats of the era to MJ? Obviously MJ was the best, but how far off were the second best players in respective years? Because here, in year 15, based on KD's performance n the playoffs, I've heard commentators saying that the gap between the best (LBJ) and second-best (KD) hasn't been so great in a long time

 

[Rocktheworld]

What happened in '95? Jordan came back after missing close to 2 years trying to be a professional baseball player. The team was pretty bad without him, I know the guy seemed superhuman but coming off of playing a completely different sport for the past 2 years and only playing 20 games, you can forgive him for not being at the height of his powers. I would be absolutely shocked if they don't win at least 1 of those years he was gone and then his whole second premature retirement thing.

Why are you making stuff up when it's well known to be objectively false? They only won two fewer games the first year without him and both years got to the second round of the playoffs. Not as bad as Wade "completely dominating the playoffs" but good grief

He was still far and away the best player in the league and just got bored with it all. His dad being murdered and boredom were the only things keeping him from more titles.

Players lose family members all the time. We all do, and we still show up to work. Does Isaiah Thomas (the active player) have more heart than MJ for playing in the playoffs the day after his little sister got killed in a car crash? MJ got bored of being the best in the sport to which he dedicated his life? Are you serious? You're actually making him sound mentally weaker than he was. These are worse excuses than anything I've seen people concoct for LeBron.

Stop the revisionist history. He was briefly forced out of the league because of his behavior, namely gambling.

 

[champs99and04]

What happened in '95? Jordan came back after missing close to 2 years trying to be a professional baseball player. The team was pretty bad without him, I know the guy seemed superhuman but coming off of playing a completely different sport for the past 2 years and only playing 20 games, you can forgive him for not being at the height of his powers. I would be absolutely shocked if they don't win at least 1 of those years he was gone and then his whole second premature retirement thing. He was still far and away the best player in the league and just got bored with it all. His dad being murdered and boredom were the only things keeping him from more titles.

I don't doubt that Jordan could have and would have won the title in '94 or '95. But that might have meant not winning three in a row after that. I just think Jordan was a guy who went so hard all the time that eventually it was going to catch up to him. I admire him in that respect because he simply didn't know how to take it down a notch - for his own health, he needed to either reel it in or take some time off. In my mind the decision to play baseball almost signified him fighting human nature. Hell, I think you could as easily argue he would have won the title in '99 or 2000.

Regardless, Jordan is Jordan. It doesn't much matter to me whether he won 6, 8, or 12. Everyone knew he was the greatest. In recent times, I believe LeBron has matched that level. The question to me is whether he can keep doing this for long enough to tilt the scales. Jordan won his last title at 35 and was essentially done after that, Kobe tore his achilles at 35 and was never the same, and Duncan's per minute numbers remained excellent until close to his 40th birthday. If LeBron can manage his minutes like Duncan over the next few years, I think he has the chance to be among the best players in the world until 38, 39 years old.

 

[tzznandrew]

I'm really looking forward to what LeBron is doing as a 38-39 year old. He should be passing Kareem if he can keep a pace of only losing 2 ppg per year going forward.

Given he's playing his best basketball of his career in year 15...

Was MJ playing his best ball in year 15? Or even as a 33 year old? That second question is an honest one; the averages are still great and right around his career average, but that's the case with Bron this year and he's clearly playing his best given the team he's carrying

Another genuine question: how close were players like Malone, Barkely, and other greats of the era to MJ? Obviously MJ was the best, but how far off were the second best players in respective years? Because here, in year 15, based on KD's performance n the playoffs, I've heard commentators saying that the gap between the best (LBJ) and second-best (KD) hasn't been so great in a long time

The year Michael Jordan turned 33, the Bulls won 72 games and he averaged over 30 ppg. He was off his peak, though. Jordan's peak was up to the first retirement. From 1986-87 to 1992-93, Jordan averaged 33-6-6 on 52% shooting. He averaged a 30.4 PER, racking up 132 WS. If you compare them over those age ranges, LeBron is close but not there.

Jordan's 15th year he turned 40 and played for the Wizards. So, yeah, it's not really close there.

If LeBron can stay healthy, he's going to break a number of counting records. His career averages and whatnot will start to decline. We have the full picture of Jordan's career; we don't have that for LeBron. 2018 Playoff LeBron is freaking insane. How much longer can he continue to put that up? And if he plays at 40 for a Seattle expansion team, and puts up something like 16-8-8, but misses the playoffs, will some future UofCT2009 say it tarnishes his legacy?

 

[superjohn]

I don't doubt that Jordan could have and would have won the title in '94 or '95. But that might have meant not winning three in a row after that. I just think Jordan was a guy who went so hard all the time that eventually it was going to catch up to him. I admire him in that respect because he simply didn't know how to take it down a notch - for his own health, he needed to either reel it in or take some time off. In my mind the decision to play baseball almost signified him fighting human nature. Hell, I think you could as easily argue he would have won the title in '99 or 2000.

Regardless, Jordan is Jordan. It doesn't much matter to me whether he won 6, 8, or 12. Everyone knew he was the greatest. In recent times, I believe LeBron has matched that level. The question to me is whether he can keep doing this for long enough to tilt the scales. Jordan won his last title at 35 and was essentially done after that, Kobe tore his achilles at 35 and was never the same, and Duncan's per minute numbers remained excellent until close to his 40th birthday. If LeBron can manage his minutes like Duncan over the next few years, I think he has the chance to be among the best players in the world until 38, 39 years old.

But my point is Jordan wasn't even close to done basketball wise when he retired for the second time, he was still far and away the best player in the league and the Bulls were still easily the best team in the league. He got bored with it all and sick of Krause. The fact he could retire a second time as still far and away the best player in the league and spend years drinking, smoking cigars, and gambling only to come back a few months shy of his 39th birthday and average 23 ppg for the season is insane to me. He scored 43 points in a game when he was 40 years old.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

But my point is Jordan wasn't even close to done basketball wise when he retired for the second time, he was still far and away the best player in the league and the Bulls were still easily the best team in the league. He got bored with it all and sick of Krause. The fact he could retire a second time as still far and away the best player in the league and spend years drinking, smoking cigars, and gambling only to come back a few months shy of his 39th birthday and average 23 ppg for the season is insane to me. He scored 43 points in a game when he was 40 years old.

Yeah but he was shooting 41% that season and 19% from three, albeit on about 1 a game.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah but he was shooting 41% that season and 19% from three, albeit on about 1 a game.

Dude, he was 39 years old and in his first season back after years of drinking, smoking, and playing golf. His three percentage as you point out is irrelevant since he didn't really take them at that point. With his feet under him some more he shot 45% fg as a 40 year old averaging 20 ppg. To put it in perspective one of the greatest scorers in history (Kobe) at 37 years old in his final season averaged 17.5 ppg on 36% shooting.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Dude, he was 39 years old and in his first season back after years of drinking, smoking, and playing golf. His three percentage as you point out is irrelevant since he didn't really take them at that point. With his feet under him some more he shot 45% fg as a 40 year old averaging 20 ppg. To put it in perspective one of the greatest scorers in history (Kobe) at 37 years old in his final season averaged 17.5 ppg on 36% shooting.

No i know but Kobe was always a bad percentage shooter. My point is that LeBron is consistently a 50-55% shooter, the last 9-10 seasons.

 

[tzznandrew]

No i know but Kobe was always a bad percentage shooter. My point is that LeBron is consistently a 50-55% shooter, the last 9-10 seasons.

But he's not 40, though...

 

[CardiacAndre7]

But he's not 40, though...

Still is 15 years on his body, it’s incredibly impressive

 

[intlzncster]

Behold, the 2002-2003 Wizards:

View attachment 31758

That these two teams finished 10th and 9th respectively in any conference boggles the mind.

Those are some of the worst rosters I've ever seen.

 

[intlzncster]

Still is 15 years on his body, it’s incredibly impressive

It's absolutely impressive, but age in a vacuum matters as well. The body does not do at 40 what it could at 32. That's just the way it is.

 

[intlzncster]

I think with the passage of time, people forget about dominance and how far above the rest of the league a guy like Jordan was.

Recency bias is always a thing with these discussions, especially (understandably so) with the younger guys.

 

[intlzncster]

Everybody is freaking out about Lebron's 51, but look at MJ:

 

[tzznandrew]

Still is 15 years on his body, it’s incredibly impressive

I'm telling you, man, it's age and not years played. 33-35 is the back end of the peak for pretty much every great basketball player ever, whether or not they came out of college or high school. The body stops recovering as well, is more susceptible to injuries, and is just a little bit slower. A lot of players, on paper, look great at 33 or 34, and then there's a clear and noticeable decline at 35 or so.

 

[auror]

Everybody is freaking out about Lebron's 51, but look at MJ:

View attachment 31764

MJ only had 1 game above 50 in the actual Finals, the 55 against the Suns in '93. Took him 37 shots to get there. Lebron used 32 for 51. MJ also had 8 rebounds & 4 assists. LeBron had 8 rebounds and 8 assists. LeBron shot it better from 2, 3, and the FT line. LeBron did have more turnovers, but that's partially exculpated by worse teammates.

MJ has had very many good games, but this James game was probably the best game either played in the actual Finals.

 

[tzznandrew]

MJ only had 1 game above 50 in the actual Finals, the 55 against the Suns in '93. Took him 37 shots to get there. Lebron used 32 for 51. MJ also had 8 rebounds & 4 assists. LeBron had 8 rebounds and 8 assists. LeBron shot it better from 2, 3, and the FT line. LeBron did have more turnovers, but that's partially exculpated by worse teammates.

MJ has had very many good games, but this James game was probably the best game either played in the actual Finals.

He was more efficient on offense, sure.

Jordan: 55 pts, 21-37, 13-18 FT, ORating: 132, DRating: 117 (lower is better on D)
LeBron: 51 pts, 19-31, 10-11 FT, ORating; 138, DRating: 125

Part of the difference is that Jordan's defensive rebounding% in the game was 19.2%

Also, the TOs matter, particularly in close games. LeBron had 5, which is what partially mitigated his ORating in a game where he was otherwise far more efficient. Part of Jordan's greatness is having a pretty low TO% (9.3 to LeBron's 13...keep in mind that this includes his Wizard years).

 

[intlzncster]

Safe to say Michael would never wear this though. fyi this whole ensemble costs $46,964.95.

Advantage Jordan.

 

[Yardigan]

Safe to say Michael would never wear this though. fyi this whole ensemble costs $46,964.95.

Advantage Jordan.

Advantage Angus Young....

 

[intlzncster]

With no Iggy, and a hobbled/doubtful Klay, the Cavs have a legit opportunity to steal back the one that got away.

 

[ihatepants]

He was more efficient on offense, sure.

Jordan: 55 pts, 21-37, 13-18 FT, ORating: 132, DRating: 117 (lower is better on D)
LeBron: 51 pts, 19-31, 10-11 FT, ORating; 138, DRating: 125

Part of the difference is that Jordan's defensive rebounding% in the game was 19.2%

Also, the TOs matter, particularly in close games. LeBron had 5, which is what partially mitigated his ORating in a game where he was otherwise far more efficient. Part of Jordan's greatness is having a pretty low TO% (9.3 to LeBron's 13...keep in mind that this includes his Wizard years).

I posted these on the last page. LeBron’s game 1 was better than Jordan’s ‘93 game:

LeBron had the best scoring 50+ point finals game ever:

NP        Player               Date      PTS
14.16    LeBron James        5/31/2018    51
10.08    Michael Jordan      6/16/1993    55
6.64     Elgin Baylor        4/14/1962    61
6.28     Jerry West          4/23/1969    53
-1.36    Rick Barry          4/18/1967    55

LeBron had the second best finals GmSc game since 1978:

Player             GmSc             Date
LeBron James       42.5          2016-06-16
LeBron James       41.3          2018-05-31
Tim Duncan         40.8          2003-06-04
Magic Johnson      39.6          1980-05-16
LeBron James       39.2          2016-06-13
Michael Jordan     38.9          1993-06-16
Shaquille O'Neal   37.9          2000-06-07
Charles Barkley    37            1993-06-11
Michael Jordan     36.9          1992-06-03
LeBron James       36.2          2017-06-12

Net points simultaneously takes into account not only how many points are scored but also the shooting percentages. GmSc takes into account the entire statistical performance. Jordan actually had two better GmSc games in the playoffs, but neither of them were in the Finals (49.80 in ‘92 vs Heat, 47.20 in ‘86 against Celtics).