NBA Playoffs

[champs99and04]

I mean, they had entirely different teams and workloads. Duncan played fewer minutes, had a significantly lower usage rate. Look at that roster! If Duncan had to play the minutes and bear the load that MJ did, I think you'd have seen a difference in the performance.

Duncan played 36 minutes per game against one of the five best teams in the league in the first round, at age 39, and averaged 18 and 11 on 59% shooting. This just isn't an argument. One guy anchored a 55 win team and the other chucked inefficient shots while not playing any defense for a non-playoff team. It's possible that Jordan not playing for three years in a row may have left him unprepared for that workload, but somehow you and John want me to give him credit for that, too. If you want me to find a comparison that is more '02 Jordan's speed, I'll give you 2015 Kobe Bryant. We're talking about the difference between Al Horford and Zach LaVine. The only reason people argue this is because his name is Michael Jordan.

 

[superjohn]

Duncan played 36 minutes per game against one of the five best teams in the league in the first round, at age 39, and averaged 18 and 11 on 59% shooting. This just isn't an argument. One guy anchored a 55 win team and the other chucked inefficient shots while not playing any defense for a non-playoff team. It's possible that Jordan not playing for three years in a row may have left him unprepared for that workload, but somehow you and John want me to give him credit for that, too. If you want me to find a comparison that is more '02 Jordan's speed, I'll give you 2015 Kobe Bryant. We're talking about the difference between Al Horford and Zach LaVine. The only reason people argue this is because his name is Michael Jordan.

You're doing an amazing job of disregarding everything that has been laid out to you. Jordan was an MVP candidate and led the Wizards to seven more wins in the first 46 games then they had in the entire previous season before he went down with the knee injury.

You're being ridiculous now, tough to take you seriously.

 

[superjohn]

Duncan played 36 minutes per game against one of the five best teams in the league in the first round, at age 39, and averaged 18 and 11 on 59% shooting. This just isn't an argument. One guy anchored a 55 win team and the other chucked inefficient shots while not playing any defense for a non-playoff team. It's possible that Jordan not playing for three years in a row may have left him unprepared for that workload, but somehow you and John want me to give him credit for that, too. If you want me to find a comparison that is more '02 Jordan's speed, I'll give you 2015 Kobe Bryant. We're talking about the difference between Al Horford and Zach LaVine. The only reason people argue this is because his name is Michael Jordan.

Kobe was terrible in 2015 with a historically low shooting percentage and the Lakers were 8-19 when he got injured. As has been posted, Jordan was putting up MVP type numbers and had his team in 4th place before he hurt his knee. You comparing an awful Kobe and Zach Lavine to Jordan invalidates any future arguments you have on this subject.

 

[champs99and04]

It may be folklore to you but it's very real to me, I watched it all. Jordan's Wizard years look way worse in retrospect, just staring at season averages, than the reality of the situation. It was actually pretty damn unreal what he did after not playing for years and being old as hell by NBA standards.

His first year with the Wizards he was easily a top 10 player in the NBA until he got injured in February and turned 39 years old. He was carrying a terrible roster of nobodies to a top 4 seed until he injured his knee, 46 games in. He was the only player in the NBA averaging over 25 ppg 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 20 games leading up to the knee injury Jordan was averaging 27.5 ppg, 6.4 rebs., 5.2 assists, 1.3 steals. The last 10 games before injury he was averaging 29.7 ppg, 6.6 rebs., 6.1 assists, and 1.2 steals. Wizards were 26-20 before the knee injury and this is a team coming off a 19 win season the year before. He was a legit MVP candidate before he hurt his knee and one of the favorites.

As a Wizard he had knee tendonitis with swelling that required constant fluid drains, elbow tendonitis, back spasms, and multiple broken ribs.

Wizards were 15-1 in the games Jordan and Rip played together. Considering the first seed in the east that year won 52 games, there is a great chance they would've passed that had they played a full season together.

The injury clearly derailed their season but they still had a 20-game turnaround from the previous season.

He also had 43 and 10 rebounds in a game at 40 years old against the best defense in the league and a team who made the NBA finals. His numbers were pretty incredible after turning 40.


As for you not being able to do hypotheticals, that's a sad way to be as a sports fan. I think most people envision without the two early retirements Jordan would have won more than 6. Just like without the injuries Walton and Bo would have been dominant forces for a long time, had Sabonis come over earlier he would have been dominant, Drazen would have been one of the most prolific shooters ever without the crash etc.

I'm not saying what he did with the Wizards wasn't impressive. I'm saying it's not impressive relative to the other things he accomplished in his career. It doesn't add anything for me. He could have walked off with that shot in game six and I'd feel the exact same way about him.

Not being able to do hypotheticals =/= giving somebody credit for things they didn't do. Sure, he could have won more than six championships. But him not playing those two seasons doesn't impact the way I feel about him. If he had lost in say the conference finals in those two seasons would you think less of him? That'd be silly IMO. We all know nobody was beating Jordan at his best.

 

[champs99and04]

I appreciate this discussion from all you older folks. Being 30, I was too young to actually appreciate Jordan and I think without actually seeing a player live, your opinion on a close comparison like this is basically worthless.

Stop please stop you're being conned

 

[CardiacAndre7]

You're doing an amazing job of disregarding everything that has been laid out to you. Jordan was an MVP candidate and led the Wizards to seven more wins in the first 46 games then they had in the entire previous season before he went down with the knee injury.

You're being ridiculous now, tough to take you seriously.

MVP candidate lol, c’mon man.

 

[UofCT]

It may be folklore to you but it's very real to me, I watched it all. Jordan's Wizard years look way worse in retrospect, just staring at season averages, than the reality of the situation. It was actually pretty damn unreal what he did after not playing for years and being old as hell by NBA standards.

His first year with the Wizards he was easily a top 10 player in the NBA until he got injured in February and turned 39 years old. He was carrying a terrible roster of nobodies to a top 4 seed until he injured his knee, 46 games in. He was the only player in the NBA averaging over 25 ppg 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 20 games leading up to the knee injury Jordan was averaging 27.5 ppg, 6.4 rebs., 5.2 assists, 1.3 steals. The last 10 games before injury he was averaging 29.7 ppg, 6.6 rebs., 6.1 assists, and 1.2 steals. Wizards were 26-20 before the knee injury and this is a team coming off a 19 win season the year before. He was a legit MVP candidate before he hurt his knee and one of the favorites.

As a Wizard he had knee tendonitis with swelling that required constant fluid drains, elbow tendonitis, back spasms, and multiple broken ribs.

Wizards were 15-1 in the games Jordan and Rip played together. Considering the first seed in the east that year won 52 games, there is a great chance they would've passed that had they played a full season together.

The injury clearly derailed their season but they still had a 20-game turnaround from the previous season.

He also had 43 and 10 rebounds in a game at 40 years old against the best defense in the league and a team who made the NBA finals. His numbers were pretty incredible after turning 40.


As for you not being able to do hypotheticals, that's a sad way to be as a sports fan. I think most people envision without the two early retirements Jordan would have won more than 6. Just like without the injuries Walton and Bo would have been dominant forces for a long time, had Sabonis come over earlier he would have been dominant, Drazen would have been one of the most prolific shooters ever without the crash etc.

Very good info. I definitely had no idea he was injured and played so well.

 

[superjohn]

MVP candidate lol, c’mon man.

What about that is crazy? He was the only guy in the league averaging 25, 6, and 5 and his numbers were going up each 10 game stretch on a team that was having about as dramatic a turnaround as you'll see before the injury.

He still finished 13th in voting after he was injured, he missed a bunch of games, and the team completely fell apart.

 

[champs99and04]

You're doing an amazing job of disregarding everything that has been laid out to you. Jordan was an MVP candidate and led the Wizards to seven more wins in the first 46 games then they had in the entire previous season before he went down with the knee injury.

You're being ridiculous now, tough to take you seriously.

The Wizards were a league average team with Jordan on the floor and about -3 with him off. That's better than I gave him credit for and certainly impactful, but I'm still stopping well short of MVP candidate.

In other words, they are about a 41 win team with him and a 33 win team without him. Perhaps if he doesn't get hurt he leads them to the playoffs. Then again, the win totals you posted probably overstates his level of impact.

Kobe's problem was as much the game passing him by than it was being washed. The great players typically score until their very last day. It's the other things - the efficiency, the production defensively, the durability - that typically goes first.

 

[Rocktheworld]

MVP candidate lol, c’mon man.

“Dwayne Wade completely dominated the playoffs without LeBron”, lol you can’t take a thing dude says seriously in this debate. He was an adolescent boy when Jordan played and that brings his bias to unarguable levels. Just ignore him. He’s making things up and hoping nobody calls him on it

I appreciate this discussion from all you older folks. Being 30, I was too young to actually appreciate Jordan and I think without actually seeing a player live, your opinion on a close comparison like this is basically worthless.

Jesus, the worst argument ever. It’s not even an argument; it’s a fallacious dismissal of a use of objective data (we keep score and record stats for a reason)... can you actually describe why those who didn’t see someone play are disqualified from a discussion of the comparison between that player and another, when we have ample objective data to use?

Are you and I not allowed to discuss Brady vs Montana?

 

[tzznandrew]

Duncan played 36 minutes per game against one of the five best teams in the league in the first round, at age 39, and averaged 18 and 11 on 59% shooting.

Dude, he did it in the playoffs, sure, but he did it as the third (at best) most important scorer on his team and after having played fewer minutes per game during that season.

I mean, Duncan is great and all. Best PF of all time. But the stats you're giving are stripped of context.

 

[superjohn]

“Dwayne Wade completely dominated the playoffs without LeBron”, lol you can’t take a thing dude says seriously in this debate. He was an adolescent boy when Jordan played and that brings his bias to unarguable levels. Just ignore him. He’s making things up and hoping nobody calls him on it


Jesus, the worst argument ever. It’s not even an argument; it’s a fallacious dismissal of a use of objective data (we keep score and record stats for a reason)... can you actually describe why those who didn’t see someone play are disqualified from a discussion of the comparison between that player and another, when we have ample objective data to use?

Are you and I not allowed to discuss Brady vs Montana?

How am I making things up? Every single thing I've said about Jordan I gave stats and team record to back it up.

How on earth did Wade not dominate the playoffa without Lebron? He won finals MVP and averaged 35, 8, 4, and 3.

You just say things without backing up any of it with what actually happened and you completely dismiss things that actually happened, it's called trolling.

 

[tzznandrew]

“Dwayne Wade completely dominated the playoffs without LeBron”, lol you can’t take a thing dude says seriously in this debate. He was an adolescent boy when Jordan played and that brings his bias to unarguable levels. Just ignore him. He’s making things up and hoping nobody calls him on it

Wade did dominate the 2006 playoffs.

As for Jordan being an MVP candidate...I don't know, but before his injury he was averaging 25ppg, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, and 1.5 steals. He wasn't going to beat Duncan for that. But he was 13th in MVP voting despite missing 22 games and being injured for a number of other games... hard to imagine he wouldn't have been top 10 if he stayed healthy, maybe top 5/6 if he stayed healthy.

 

[tzznandrew]

For contrast, in the year that champs is rightly talking up Duncan, he got one point, as opposed to MJ's 16. Still amazing, but context. MJ would have made an all-league team without the injury. That's not how history goes, but it's how nuance goes.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Yup. People just can't fathom it who didn't witness it. He showed up with Bird and Magic on the court, and eclipsed them while they were still winning freaking MVPs.

People who get older often reflexively think their favorite players were better because we have selective memories. I try not to let that happen, but nobody's perfect. But then you see stats, and highlights, and you realize that in your effort to correct your own bias you may have over-corrected.

Regardless, those of us who saw Jordan in his prime have to realize we are lucky to have watched probably the two greatest basketball players ever. Jabbar in his prime is up there. But these two are at the top. I happen to think there's still a gap, though, just as there is on an Olympic medal stage, between Jordan in gold and LeBron in silver.

I absolutely agree about memory. The good ol' days always seem better, and the heroes of our youth unmatchable. Jordan was simply must-see-tv. "Amazing" was always one or two plays away. It was an honor to watch him.

That said, I have never seen a player as complete as Lebron. What he can do and the weight he carries is staggering. 15 years into this advance athletic age, and he is still clearly the best. It is unreal.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

What about that is crazy? He was the only guy in the league averaging 25, 6, and 5 and his numbers were going up each 10 game stretch on a team that was having about as dramatic a turnaround as you'll see before the injury.

He still finished 13th in voting after he was injured, he missed a bunch of games, and the team completely fell apart.

Yeah at an incredibly high usage rate on terrible shooting percentages. Look at his advanced stats, he may have been “considered” and MVP candidate because of the name and all, but he should have been nowhere near the discussion.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Wade did dominate the 2006 playoffs.

Okay when I read “completely dominated the playoffs” I figured the genius was talking about in general, not one season. Otherwise the point is fairly moot given that season was 5 years before Bron showed up and in between the ship and Bron, the Heat were actually not great at all.

 

[tzznandrew]

Okay when I read “completely dominated the playoffs” I figured the genius was talking about in general, not one season. Otherwise the point is fairly moot given that season was 5 years before Bron showed up and in between the ship and Bron, the Heat were actually not great at all.

They weren't, but he was oft-injured, especially in the years immediately after the title.

Still, when his team made the playoffs, he was fantastic in the leadup to LeBron. Only the Finals in 2006, though, would I say he dominated. Him and, of course, Tim Donaghy.

 

[Walker11]

“Dwayne Wade completely dominated the playoffs without LeBron”, lol you can’t take a thing dude says seriously in this debate. He was an adolescent boy when Jordan played and that brings his bias to unarguable levels. Just ignore him. He’s making things up and hoping nobody calls him on it


Jesus, the worst argument ever. It’s not even an argument; it’s a fallacious dismissal of a use of objective data (we keep score and record stats for a reason)... can you actually describe why those who didn’t see someone play are disqualified from a discussion of the comparison between that player and another, when we have ample objective data to use?

Are you and I not allowed to discuss Brady vs Montana?

I don't think we have an appropriate understanding of the context to have a worthwhile opinion. I remember every single high and low of Lebron's career. I remember having a Space Jam poster on my wall and that MJ stuck his tongue out. And that he was awesome, of course, but I obviously didn't follow his career with 1/10th of the attention.

So my opinion is that statistically these guys are on a very similar plane and to truly have a worthwhile opinion on the matter, you need to understand the context more completely. Your argument can be that they actually aren't on the same statistical plane and that's fine. Basically I know that we (and of few others ITT) are of the same generation and I have no idea how people can have such strong opinions when I have no GD clue who is actually better.

 

[superjohn]

Okay when I read “completely dominated the playoffs” I figured the genius was talking about in general, not one season. Otherwise the point is fairly moot given that season was 5 years before Bron showed up and in between the ship and Bron, the Heat were actually not great at all.

This is crazy town. You're the one who said Jordan wins with teams full of Hall of famers. You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade. Wade was neck and neck for best shooting guard in the league with Kobe and one of the best players in the league. You're not even old enough to remember it was Lebron joining up with Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?

It's not my fault you can't read. Also, if you're going to quote me, actually quote me. I would never call him Dwayne Wade.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah at an incredibly high usage rate on terrible shooting percentages. Look at his advanced stats, he may have been “considered” and MVP candidate because of the name and all, but he should have been nowhere near the discussion.

The only guy in the NBA averaging 25,6, and 5 and his team won more games than the previous season is only their 37th game played. It shouldn't be this hard for you to recognize he was a candidate before the injury.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

The only guy in the NBA averaging 25,6, and 5 and his team won more games than the previous season is only their 37th game played. It shouldn't be this hard for you to recognize he was a candidate before the injury.

Well I can recognize that we differ in our opinions on this. No point in arguing any more.

 

[David 76]

Well I can recognize that we differ in our opinions on this. No point in arguing any more.

And this happened on the Vineyard!!

 

[champs99and04]

Dude, he did it in the playoffs, sure, but he did it as the third (at best) most important scorer on his team and after having played fewer minutes per game during that season.

I mean, Duncan is great and all. Best PF of all time. But the stats you're giving are stripped of context.

Who were the two more important scorers?

Duncan played about 200 more minutes than Jordan did, so while Jordan's usage certainly compromised his efficiency, Ducan's production really had nothing to do with him having his minutes managed or any other context. He was just better at that age than Jordan.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

OMG I don't know what's worse: this NBA Finals thread clogged with pages and pages of Lebron vs. Jordan GOAT arguments or that rendition of the national anthem I just witnessed before the start of Game 2. I don't care if it's Carlos Santana--that was truly hideous. And the drummer was totally over the top in a bad bad way