NBA Playoffs | Page 67 | The Boneyard

NBA Playoffs

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But my point is Jordan wasn't even close to done basketball wise when he retired for the second time, he was still far and away the best player in the league and the Bulls were still easily the best team in the league. He got bored with it all and sick of Krause. The fact he could retire a second time as still far and away the best player in the league and spend years drinking, smoking cigars, and gambling only to come back a few months shy of his 39th birthday and average 23 ppg for the season is insane to me. He scored 43 points in a game when he was 40 years old.

Eh. I'm as much of a sucker for Jordan folklore as the next guy, but whatever it is he did with the Wizards just doesn't wow me. He's the greatest ever. Of course he can step in at age 39 and still put up numbers. Tim Duncan was an all-NBA caliber player at age 38. That's much more notable to me than the traveling circus Jordan had going.

I don't actually think boredom was what drove Jordan out. I'd be more likely to describe Shaq or Wilt that way. Jordan was just a pathological competitor who had his demons off the court. Perhaps he acted like he had nothing left to prove after three titles in a row, but in the back of his mind he knew there'd always be something to prove. That's what made him him. Jordan burning himself out was a condition of his greatness, a prophecy if you will. I have no problem seeing him as the GOAT, I just struggle to credit him for things that he didn't do.
 
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Tim Duncan was an all-NBA caliber player at age 38.
I mean, they had entirely different teams and workloads. Duncan played fewer minutes, had a significantly lower usage rate. Look at that roster! If Duncan had to play the minutes and bear the load that MJ did, I think you'd have seen a difference in the performance.
 
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I mean, they had entirely different teams and workloads. Duncan played fewer minutes, had a significantly lower usage rate. Look at that roster! If Duncan had to play the minutes and bear the load that MJ did, I think you'd have seen a difference in the performance.

To be fair, Duncan played 47,000 minutes in his career, with an additional 9400 minutes in the postseason. Jordan had only played 36,000 minutes (7500 playoff minutes) before he joined the Wizards because he retired a couple of times. Jordan had significantly less miles on his legs, so he should have theoretically been fresh later into his career. Their career usage rate was 33.4% to 27.0%. It's like the difference between Embiid (33.5%) and Kemba (27.3%), and Kemba was still one of the league leaders.
 
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To be fair, Duncan played 47,000 minutes in his career, with an additional 9400 minutes in the postseason. Jordan had only played 36,000 minutes (7500 playoff minutes) before he joined the Wizards because he retired a couple of times. Jordan had significantly less miles on his legs, so he should have theoretically been fresh later into his career. Their career usage rate was 33.4% to 27.0%. It's like the difference between Embiid (33.5%) and Kemba (27.3%), and Kemba was still one of the league leaders.
Except that he wasn't working out those two years. I don't know how old you are, but you're body starts decomposing at roughly 35: forget miles on your legs. Jordan went from smoking and drinking and little serious body maintenance for three years to hopping back into the NBA at 38. That's really freaking hard.

And, let me apologize for not being clear: usage rate I was talking about was specifically in the years we're talking about. His usage rate at 38 was 36! Or, the equivalent of James Harden this year (i.e. league leading) Duncan, in his 38th year, had a usage rate of 22.2, which was the same as Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (rank: 132).
 
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Except that he wasn't working out those two years. I don't know how old you are, but you're body starts decomposing at roughly 35: forget miles on your legs. Jordan went from smoking and drinking and little serious body maintenance for three years to hopping back into the NBA at 38. That's really freaking hard.

What? Jordan was indeed working out because he was planning to come out of retirement again all along. He even hosted that invitation only camp for NBA players to test himself if he was ready for the comeback. Do you think he just decided to walk back onto the court without preparing himself first, the crazy competitive guy that he is? Tim Grover, his personal trainer of over a decade, kept working with him during Jordan’s time away from the court. Jordan also had to plan on how to go about being able to play again, because he was a minority owner of the Wizards an the NBA has rules about any owners playing - I think he sold his ownership to the owner of the Capitals and bought a share of that team in exchange. A lot of things were prepared in advance to make sure he could come back. It didn’t just “happen”
 
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What? Jordan was indeed working out because he was planning to come out of retirement again all along. He even hosted that invitation only camp for NBA players to test himself if he was ready for the comeback. Do you think he just decided to walk back onto the court without preparing himself first, the crazy competitive guy that he is?
I overstated. But that's not the same as playing 60-82 games a year.
 

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To be fair, Duncan played 47,000 minutes in his career, with an additional 9400 minutes in the postseason. Jordan had only played 36,000 minutes (7500 playoff minutes) before he joined the Wizards because he retired a couple of times. Jordan had significantly less miles on his legs, so he should have theoretically been fresh later into his career.

There's a huge difference in position though. Being less mobile, at a less mobile position, doesn't take as much out of you, as having to run, slash, and keep up with lightening fast guys from the outside. Night and day really.
 
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Eh. I'm as much of a sucker for Jordan folklore as the next guy, but whatever it is he did with the Wizards just doesn't wow me. He's the greatest ever. Of course he can step in at age 39 and still put up numbers. Tim Duncan was an all-NBA caliber player at age 38. That's much more notable to me than the traveling circus Jordan had going.

I don't actually think boredom was what drove Jordan out. I'd be more likely to describe Shaq or Wilt that way. Jordan was just a pathological competitor who had his demons off the court. Perhaps he acted like he had nothing left to prove after three titles in a row, but in the back of his mind he knew there'd always be something to prove. That's what made him him. Jordan burning himself out was a condition of his greatness, a prophecy if you will. I have no problem seeing him as the GOAT, I just struggle to credit him for things that he didn't do.


It may be folklore to you but it's very real to me, I watched it all. Jordan's Wizard years look way worse in retrospect, just staring at season averages, than the reality of the situation. It was actually pretty damn unreal what he did after not playing for years and being old as hell by NBA standards.

His first year with the Wizards he was easily a top 10 player in the NBA until he got injured in February and turned 39 years old. He was carrying a terrible roster of nobodies to a top 4 seed until he injured his knee, 46 games in. He was the only player in the NBA averaging over 25 ppg 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 20 games leading up to the knee injury Jordan was averaging 27.5 ppg, 6.4 rebs., 5.2 assists, 1.3 steals. The last 10 games before injury he was averaging 29.7 ppg, 6.6 rebs., 6.1 assists, and 1.2 steals. Wizards were 26-20 before the knee injury and this is a team coming off a 19 win season the year before. He was a legit MVP candidate before he hurt his knee and one of the favorites.

As a Wizard he had knee tendonitis with swelling that required constant fluid drains, elbow tendonitis, back spasms, and multiple broken ribs.

Wizards were 15-1 in the games Jordan and Rip played together. Considering the first seed in the east that year won 52 games, there is a great chance they would've passed that had they played a full season together.

The injury clearly derailed their season but they still had a 20-game turnaround from the previous season.

He also had 43 and 10 rebounds in a game at 40 years old against the best defense in the league and a team who made the NBA finals. His numbers were pretty incredible after turning 40.


As for you not being able to do hypotheticals, that's a sad way to be as a sports fan. I think most people envision without the two early retirements Jordan would have won more than 6. Just like without the injuries Walton and Bo would have been dominant forces for a long time, had Sabonis come over earlier he would have been dominant, Drazen would have been one of the most prolific shooters ever without the crash etc.
 
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There's a huge difference in position though. Being less mobile, at a less mobile position, doesn't take as much out of you, as having to run, slash, and keep up with lightening fast guys from the outside. Night and day really.
How about the fact that Duncan is 7’0? Those guys almost always end up with bad feet/backs/knees.
 
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It may be folklore to you but it's very real to me, I watched it all. Jordan's Wizard years look way worse in retrospect, just staring at season averages, than the reality of the situation. It was actually pretty damn unreal what he did after not playing for years and being old as hell by NBA standards.

His first year with the Wizards he was easily a top 10 player in the NBA until he got injured in February and turned 39 years old. He was carrying a terrible roster of nobodies to a top 4 seed until he injured his knee, 46 games in. He was the only player in the NBA averaging over 25 ppg 6 rebs, and 5 assists. 20 games leading up to the knee injury Jordan was averaging 27.5 ppg, 6.4 rebs., 5.2 assists, 1.3 steals. The last 10 games before injury he was averaging 29.7 ppg, 6.6 rebs., 6.1 assists, and 1.2 steals. Wizards were 26-20 before the knee injury and this is a team coming off a 19 win season the year before. He was a legit MVP candidate before he hurt his knee and one of the favorites.
I forgot how well he was playing, and really had totally blocked the knee injury from my memory.
 
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How about the fact that Duncan is 7’0? Those guys almost always end up with bad feet/backs/knees.
Sure, but if you aren't chasing guards all the time you can hide that a little better.

And Duncan plantar fasciitis absolutely hindered the back end of his career.
 
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Very impressive stats, I probably should retract some of my previous statements about the Wizards era being held against him.

People held it against him because they viewed him through the lens of 1993 Jordan. But if you look at other small forwards that season, he more than held his own.
 
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His first year back he scored 51 points in a game. He was 2nd in usage, 9th in scoring and Top 20 in PER despite not playing for 3 years and being injured and missing 22 games.
 
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His first year back he scored 51 points in a game. He was 2nd in usage, 9th in scoring and Top 20 in PER despite not playing for 3 years and being injured and missing 22 games.
I'm loving this thread, it's reminding me how Jordan was somehow even more incredible than I remembered. That 51 point game he had 24 in the first quarter and 34 in the first half.
 
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I'm loving this thread, it's reminding me how Jordan was somehow even more incredible than I remembered. That 51 point game he had 24 in the first quarter and 34 in the first half.

LOL. "And a new season high for Michael Jordan. 45 points."

It was still December. He was 38.
 

intlzncster

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How about the fact that Duncan is 7’0? Those guys almost always end up with bad feet/backs/knees.

Without a doubt. But it also still allows you to play, sometimes effectively. The position doesn't require you to move as much. Didn't say it was easy. I mean, Dirk is still hobbling around out there. Can you imagine that at the guard position?
 
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He still has the Wizards' records for points in their current home arena, points in a quarter, points in a half.

He scored 50 points against every Eastern Conference team. LOL
 

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I'm loving this thread, it's reminding me how Jordan was somehow even more incredible than I remembered. That 51 point game he had 24 in the first quarter and 34 in the first half.


There's a legitimate reason Jordan became his own brand. More so than any player before him. I mean, the guy has the most iconic shoe line in sports, again now it's own brand. We all wanted to "be like Mike". It's like trying to describe Tiger Woods in his prime. You can't do the dominance justice.

He was by far and away the most recognizable athlete on the planet. Very few attain that recognition, Tiger and Ali level.
 
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I posted these on the last page. LeBron’s game 1 was better than Jordan’s ‘93 game:

LeBron had the best scoring 50+ point finals game ever:
Code:
NP        Player               Date      PTS
14.16    LeBron James        5/31/2018    51
10.08    Michael Jordan      6/16/1993    55
6.64     Elgin Baylor        4/14/1962    61
6.28     Jerry West          4/23/1969    53
-1.36    Rick Barry          4/18/1967    55

LeBron had the second best finals GmSc game since 1978:
Code:
Player             GmSc             Date
LeBron James       42.5          2016-06-16
LeBron James       41.3          2018-05-31
Tim Duncan         40.8          2003-06-04
Magic Johnson      39.6          1980-05-16
LeBron James       39.2          2016-06-13
Michael Jordan     38.9          1993-06-16
Shaquille O'Neal   37.9          2000-06-07
Charles Barkley    37            1993-06-11
Michael Jordan     36.9          1992-06-03
LeBron James       36.2          2017-06-12

Net points simultaneously takes into account not only how many points are scored but also the shooting percentages. GmSc takes into account the entire statistical performance. Jordan actually had two better GmSc games in the playoffs, but neither of them were in the Finals (49.80 in ‘92 vs Heat, 47.20 in ‘86 against Celtics).
I have admitted it was a better offensive performance. But GmSc only uses actual stats. Jordan had a better defensive game than LeBron by DRating.

The formula is: Defensive Rating = (Opponent's Points Allowed/ Opponent's Possessions) x 100. The result is the expected amount of points that an individual player will allow on defense over 100 possessions. This stat can't be significantly influenced by the defense of a player's teammates.​
 
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LOL. "And a new season high for Michael Jordan. 45 points."

It was still December. He was 38.
After the 51 points against the Hornets the following night he had 45 pts, 10 rebs, 7 assists against the Nets.

The following season he had 45 pts. against the Hornets just 2 weeks before his 40th birthday. 4 days after his 40th birthday he had 43 pts against the Nets. Man he feasted on the Hornets and Nets.
 
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There's a legitimate reason Jordan became his own brand. More so than any player before him. I mean, the guy has the most iconic shoe line in sports, again now it's own brand. We all wanted to "be like Mike". It's like trying to describe Tiger Woods in his prime. You can't do the dominance justice.

He was by far and away the most recognizable athlete on the planet. Very few attain that recognition, Tiger and Ali level.
Yup. People just can't fathom it who didn't witness it. He showed up with Bird and Magic on the court, and eclipsed them while they were still winning freaking MVPs.

People who get older often reflexively think their favorite players were better because we have selective memories. I try not to let that happen, but nobody's perfect. But then you see stats, and highlights, and you realize that in your effort to correct your own bias you may have over-corrected.

Regardless, those of us who saw Jordan in his prime have to realize we are lucky to have watched probably the two greatest basketball players ever. Jabbar in his prime is up there. But these two are at the top. I happen to think there's still a gap, though, just as there is on an Olympic medal stage, between Jordan in gold and LeBron in silver.
 
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