NBA Playoffs

[CardiacAndre7]

Without Ray Allen Lebron would be 2-6 in the finals and staring down 2-7.

Hate that argument more than anything. Like, Ray is a 3 point specialist, you expect him to make that shot to some degree. Without LeBron, Ray doesn’t get that shot. Simple as that.

 

[UofCT]

This is crazy town. You're the one who said Jordan wins with teams full of Hall of famers. You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade. Wade was neck and neck for best shooting guard in the league with Kobe and one of the best players in the league. You're not even old enough to remember it was Lebron joining up with Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?

You must be so old that you forgot how lethal Pippen was.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Hate that argument more than anything. Like, Ray is a 3 point specialist, you expect him to make that shot to some degree. Without LeBron, Ray doesn’t get that shot. Simple as that.

Let's take away credit from Tom Brady and say he'd be 2-7 in Super Bowls if it weren't for Adam Vinateri (or really 2-6 without the kick to beat Oakland); and 0-9 if it weren't for Pete Carroll and Kyle Shanahan

 

[tzznandrew]

Good advice. Read up on Pippen and Rodman. Not sure if you have ever heard of this thing called the Hall of Fame but they are both in it.

Do you not think Wade or Bosh will be in it? Do you not think there are degrees of greatness?

 

[superjohn]

Had a great series and season. And outside that...? You're the one who used the phrase "completely dominated", speaking of ridiculous statements...


Bruh, I'll totally acknowledge that Jordan only started winning when Bird was on the decline and the league got watered down. And when he got Pippen. LOL just noticed who liked this post, "mjmoney23"


On one team at any given time? Sure. Bron played with no more than 2 all stars at any given moment, and on each of those teams went to 4 straight Finals. MJ never went to more than 3, and he was also coached by Phil. Bron won that championship in 2016 coming back from 3-1 on that GSW team without any, which blew my mind too; had to triple-take that...

In 2011 he took out a Celtics team with 4 All-Stars (in that season, not just tallying up all the players who ever appeared in an ASG like you do so disingenuously below) in that grueling ECF. No wonder he was physically and emotionally drained for the Dallas series. MJ ever go through a team with 4 all-stars and a Doc Rivers-caliber coach?


I don't think Love gets to the Hall. You think Bosh will? Wade, sure. Then Ray, who averaged 10 points in his two years in Miami. Way too early to talk about Kyrie.

I'll give you 2 (one averaging 10 ppg as above), maybe a third for LeBron; but MJ gets a third HOF in Phil.


Buddy have you forgot our harmless running joke about you?


Swing and a miss


I would sure hope by now. By your late 30s I'd hope you'd have moved up to fine dining. I know plenty of service industry people, and those chicks and dudes RAKE IT IN at that level.

You do much better when you ask questions like when you asked was Jordan still the best in the league when he won his last championship and retired? Yes, Jordan was far and away the best player at tbat time just as Lebron is right now.

Your mistake is you often don't ask questions, instead choosing to act like an expert about things you don't know.

When you say Jordan did nothing his first three years it just cements you don't know what you're ralking about. He lost to the '86 Celtics which is the best team of all-time. Jordan missed most of the season with a broken foot and was going up against a team with 5 Hall of famers and by far the best frontcourt ever assembled in Bird, Parish, McHale, and Walton. Those first three years where you say Jordan did nothing he was playing some of the best teams ever and averaged 30 ppg in year one, 44 ppg in year two, and 36 ppg in year three. So you saying he did nothing sounds cool and edgy but doesn't show any signs of knowing what actually happened.

The point is ask more questions instead of your trolling routine.

 

[tzznandrew]

Peak Wade better than Pippen. Got it

He was. By pretty much any measure...

 

[tzznandrew]

Bruh, I'll totally acknowledge that Jordan only started winning when Bird was on the decline and the league got watered down. And when he got Pippen. LOL just noticed who liked this post, "mjmoney23"

LeBron did what before Wade? Make his way through a horrific East? I mean, his performance against the Pistons was fantastic, but the 2007 Pistons weren't the 1989 Pistons, Celtics, etc. Holding Jordan losing to those teams against him when he clearly had an inferior team is like holding all LeBron's finals losses against him.

Since the Celtics broke down in 2011, really, there hasn't been a team that can compete. It's been LeBron vs. the West, which is a different scenario than the Bulls, who at least always had the Knicks (minimally). Dumb people will hold the Magic series against him. That's dumb. But the 2010 Celtics series and the 2011 Mavericks series were both series where LeBron wimped out on the biggest stage in a way that Jordan didn't.

I don't think Love gets to the Hall. You think Bosh will? Wade, sure. Then Ray, who averaged 10 points in his two years in Miami. Way too early to talk about Kyrie.

No doubt Bosh makes the HOF. Love is more borderline, though he's at least 50-50. Kyrie is only 25 and his Basketball-Reference HOF calculator is already at 36%.

Regardless, Pippen at his peak is not as good as Wade at his peak, and Bosh is better than Rodman. Horace Grant is essentially a LOL.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Do you not think Wade or Bosh will be in it? Do you not think there are degrees of greatness?

Wade for sure.

Now that I look, if guys like Maurice Cheeks are getting in these days... I guess you gotta give it to Bosh.

*holding in vomit* Christian Laetner, former team mate of MJ, will probably be in one day albeit mostly for what he did at Puke. As will Kerr (who also saved MJ a la Ray saving LeBron). Hell, Horace Grant may get in there.

And if you're going to count Ray against Bron, you have to count Ron Harper who is absolutely getting in if Bosh is.

And then, again, Phil.

 

[Rocktheworld]

LeBron did what before Wade? Make his way through a horrific East?

With nobody but Vidrunas, and Mike Brown at the helm. As a 22 year old.

I mean, his performance against the Pistons was fantastic, but the 2007 Pistons weren't the 1989 Pistons, Celtics, etc. Holding Jordan losing to those teams against him when he clearly had an inferior team

The point is not about Jordan losing with inferior teams. It's to foil people's points against LeBron that he only won when he joined up with two other great players.

holding all LeBron's finals losses against him.

Nobody should, except 2011

Since the Celtics broke down in 2011, really, there hasn't been a team that can compete.

We all know this. But just as a side point, why were everyone hyping up Toronto all year this season?

By the way I wouldn't call that "broke down"; LeBron exorcised the demon

It's been LeBron vs. the West, which is a different scenario than the Bulls, who at least always had the Knicks (minimally).

Sure MJ had a tougher East, but once he got to the Finals? It's the inverse for LeBron. Easier path there, but outside of 2011 he has faced tougher teams. Bron has been favored in, what, 2 of the 9 Finals he has played in despite all this talent he allegedly had?

How many times were the Bulls an underdog?

Dumb people will hold the Magic series against him. That's dumb.

Why?

But the 2010 Celtics series and the 2011 Mavericks series were both series where LeBron wimped out on the biggest stage in a way that Jordan didn't.

We know about 2011 but 2010? The series in which Bron led all scorers in 4/6 games, and led his team in a 5th? If you can't hold the Orlando series against Jordan you can't hold one bad night (had the best +/- of all the starters) in a non-elimination game against LeBron.

No doubt Bosh makes the HOF. Love is more borderline, though he's at least 50-50. Kyrie is only 25 and his Basketball-Reference HOF calculator is already at 36%.

Agreed. And lol they have odds calculators for eventual HOF induction?

Regardless, Pippen at his peak is not as good as Wade at his peak, and Bosh is better than Rodman. Horace Grant is essentially a LOL.

Not sure you can compare players 1:1 like that given their positions and skill sets.

...But we could and should really say that about this whole MJ-LBJ thing

 

[Rocktheworld]

You do much better when you ask questions like when you asked was Jordan still the best in the league when he won his last championship and retired? Yes, Jordan was far and away the best player at tbat time just as Lebron is right now.

He retired after year 15. Was he the best player in the leauge in year 15?

Your mistake is you often don't ask questions, instead choosing to act like an expert about things you don't know.

Okay, guy who has nothing but boyhood nostalgia

When you say Jordan did nothing his first three years it just cements you don't know what you're ralking about. He lost to the '86 Celtics which is the best team of all-time. Jordan missed most of the season with a broken foot and was going up against a team with 5 Hall of famers and by far the best frontcourt ever assembled in Bird, Parish, McHale, and Walton. Those first three years where you say Jordan did nothing he was playing some of the best teams ever and averaged 30 ppg in year one, 44 ppg in year two, and 36 ppg in year three. So you saying he did nothing sounds cool and edgy but doesn't show any signs of knowing what actually happened.

The point is ask more questions instead of your trolling routine.

Glad you caught on about that part

The rest was pretty serious though. Care to address any of the 3 actual points I made?

 

[superjohn]

Wade for sure.

Now that I look, if guys like Maurice Cheeks are getting in these days... I guess you gotta give it to Bosh.

*holding in vomit* Christian Laetner, former team mate of MJ, will probably be in one day albeit mostly for what he did at Puke. As will Kerr (who also saved MJ a la Ray saving LeBron). Hell, Horace Grant may get in there.

And if you're going to count Ray against Bron, you have to count Ron Harper who is absolutely getting in if Bosh is.

And then, again, Phil.

Dude, just bow out. Ron Harper is absolutely getting in and Horace Grant may get in.

Neither of you watched any of these players play but the teenager who hates pants has a way better grasp on things.

Might as well throw Jud Buechler in the Hall while you're at it.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Dude, just bow out. Ron Harper is absolutely getting in and Horace Grant may get in.

Neither of you watched any of these players play but the teenager who hates pants has a way better grasp on things.

Might as well throw Jud Buechler in the Hall while you're at it.

Need some fresh bread sticks over here

And the wine you suggested is crap

 

[superjohn]

Need some fresh bread sticks over here

And the wine you suggested is crap

Nah, they'll give you a yeast infection.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Nah, they'll give you a yeast infection.

lol not bad

Not getting banned over going further with this though

Time to head out anyway, have a nice Friday (or I guess it's already over for you)

 

[champs99and04]

"Jordan would have won eight straight titles if he didn't retire" has never been an argument that does much for me. There is a huge difference between being the best and winning every year. The wear and tear he saved his body by sitting those two seasons is unquantifiable. And if you want to appeal to Jordan's will to win, well, he was on the floor when they lost to Orlando in '95. The guy was mortal, even if just barely. Otherwise, let's go ahead and give Shaq credit for all those years he wasn't in shape and assume he would have won the title.

Peak Wade was better than peak Pippen, but LeBron really only got one year out of him, and he was far more inconsistent in the playoffs than people remember. In hindsight, they weren't a great fit together. It wasn't really until they started surrounding LeBron with shooters - Miller, Battier, Jones, Allen, etc. - that those Heat teams took off. Bosh was a stud, but he got badly outplayed by Duncan in the 2013 finals, putting up a goose egg in game 7 and averaging an empty 12 points for the series. You can debate the merits of Kyrie and Love, but LeBron only played two full postseasons with them. They won the title one year and the next a 73 win team added Kevin Durant.

Jordan, meanwhile, got Pippen's entire prime. All of it. And when he retired before the '94 season, the Bulls won fifty-five games without him. Go ahead and tell me which team LeBron has ever played for is winning 55 games in his absence. 2013 could maybe win 50.

Prior to this point, I sided with Jordan in this debate simply because he doesn't have a stain on his resume like the 2011 Finals. I also had questions about whether LeBron was mentally unstable enough to do the things to win that Jordan did (call it competitiveness if you prefer).

But after last night, I'm about ready to flip. LeBron might just be better. Scoring - specifically one on one, in high leverage situations - was the one area Michael had him beat. Given the fact that LeBron is averaging 35 PPG on 55% from the floor (what?) while still hoisting over five 3's a game, I'm no longer sure that edge is enough to compensate for LeBron being better in other areas.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Shaq has admitted it several times, granted Shaq also put up amazing numbers in that series.

He says that out of respect. Dream got the better of him, but he didn't destroy him. All I said.

 

[ihatepants]

LeBron had the best scoring 50+ point finals game ever:

NP        Player               Date      PTS
14.16    LeBron James        5/31/2018    51
10.08    Michael Jordan      6/16/1993    55
6.64     Elgin Baylor        4/14/1962    61
6.28     Jerry West          4/23/1969    53
-1.36    Rick Barry          4/18/1967    55

LeBron had the second best finals GmSc game since 1978:

Player             GmSc             Date
LeBron James       42.5          2016-06-16
LeBron James       41.3          2018-05-31
Tim Duncan         40.8          2003-06-04
Magic Johnson      39.6          1980-05-16
LeBron James       39.2          2016-06-13
Michael Jordan     38.9          1993-06-16
Shaquille O'Neal   37.9          2000-06-07
Charles Barkley    37            1993-06-11
Michael Jordan     36.9          1992-06-03
LeBron James       36.2          2017-06-12

He’s in the middle of having perhaps the best playoffs by any individual player ever. To put these stats into perspective:
Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki each had four career regular season games with 38+ GmSc.

Player           Season    38+ GmSc Games
LeBron James     2017-18        7
Charles Barkley  1992-93        3
Michael Jordan   1988-89        3


Player             Season   29+ GmSc Games
LeBron James       2017-18     11
LeBron James       2016-17     10
Michael Jordan     1988-89      9
Michael Jordan     1989-90      9
Shaquille O'Neal   1999-00      9

 

[Mr. French]

Wade for sure.

Now that I look, if guys like Maurice Cheeks are getting in these days... I guess you gotta give it to Bosh.

*holding in vomit* Christian Laetner, former team mate of MJ, will probably be in one day albeit mostly for what he did at Puke. As will Kerr (who also saved MJ a la Ray saving LeBron). Hell, Horace Grant may get in there.

And if you're going to count Ray against Bron, you have to count Ron Harper who is absolutely getting in if Bosh is.

And then, again, Phil.

Yikes, what did I just read?

Mo Cheeks, Laettner, Harper, Grant, and your read on all of them is brutes.

 

[Robertelamin]

Yikes, what did I just read?

No Cheeks, Laettner, Harper, Grant, and your read on all of them is brutes.

If Ron Harper and Horace Grant make it then why even bother having a Hall of Fame. At least Christian Laettner is actually famous even if it is mostly hate.

 

[tzznandrew]

Yeah, Horace Grant, 1-time all star, career 11ppg 8 rpg, 16 PER (15 is league average!), should not be in the HOF. The guy's best season was 15-11, and he did that once. Not even a borderline candidate.

Ron Harper, 0-time All Star, also doesn't deserve to be in the Hall, though his time before the Bulls he averaged 19-5-5. Career 13-4-4 just not enough.

Maurice Cheeks being in the HOF is pretty dumb, IMO.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Maurice Cheeks being in the HOF is pretty dumb, IMO.

Set a pretty bad precedent with that one in particular.

Any doubt Kerr will be in there (for his play besides his coaching)?

 

[tzznandrew]

Set a pretty bad precedent with that one in particular.

Any doubt Kerr will be in there (for his play besides his coaching)?

Anytime you can put in a guy with a career 6-1-1 into the Hall, you gotta do it?

Kerr had multiple negative VORP seasons, and negative defensive plus/minus. He did shoot over 50% from 3 over 4 times (each with more than 4 attempts per game), and he's got the titles, but he's not a HOFer for his playing. He'll be in there if/when he wins the title this year, provided he coaches another 10 years or so. Maybe even just 5 more years.

 

[UofCT]

"Jordan would have won eight straight titles if he didn't retire" has never been an argument that does much for me. There is a huge difference between being the best and winning every year. The wear and tear he saved his body by sitting those two seasons is unquantifiable. And if you want to appeal to Jordan's will to win, well, he was on the floor when they lost to Orlando in '95. The guy was mortal, even if just barely. Otherwise, let's go ahead and give Shaq credit for all those years he wasn't in shape and assume he would have won the title.

Peak Wade was better than peak Pippen, but LeBron really only got one year out of him, and he was far more inconsistent in the playoffs than people remember. In hindsight, they weren't a great fit together. It wasn't really until they started surrounding LeBron with shooters - Miller, Battier, Jones, Allen, etc. - that those Heat teams took off. Bosh was a stud, but he got badly outplayed by Duncan in the 2013 finals, putting up a goose egg in game 7 and averaging an empty 12 points for the series. You can debate the merits of Kyrie and Love, but LeBron only played two full postseasons with them. They won the title one year and the next a 73 win team added Kevin Durant.

Jordan, meanwhile, got Pippen's entire prime. All of it. And when he retired before the '94 season, the Bulls won fifty-five games without him. Go ahead and tell me which team LeBron has ever played for is winning 55 games in his absence. 2013 could maybe win 50.

Prior to this point, I sided with Jordan in this debate simply because he doesn't have a stain on his resume like the 2011 Finals. I also had questions about whether LeBron was mentally unstable enough to do the things to win that Jordan did (call it competitiveness if you prefer).

But after last night, I'm about ready to flip. LeBron might just be better. Scoring - specifically one on one, in high leverage situations - was the one area Michael had him beat. Given the fact that LeBron is averaging 35 PPG on 55% from the floor (what?) while still hoisting over five 3's a game, I'm no longer sure that edge is enough to compensate for LeBron being better in other areas.

Jordan failing to make the playoffs on the Wizards is a stain. That happened and for some reason it's not held against him. That was his team and they stunk.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Anytime you can put in a guy with a career 6-1-1 into the Hall, you gotta do it?

Kerr had multiple negative VORP seasons, and negative defensive plus/minus. He did shoot over 50% from 3 over 4 times (each with more than 4 attempts per game), and he's got the titles, but he's not a HOFer for his playing. He'll be in there if/when he wins the title this year, provided he coaches another 10 years or so. Maybe even just 5 more years.

I’ll be honest I was being mostly facetious with most of those players I first listed just because of their comparison to Cheeks

All of my points stand fine with MJ just playing with 2 HOFers and a HOF coach

 

[Adios]

What a shame Cleveland lost Game 1 with a performance like that. JR was obviously in such awe himself.