NBA Playoffs

[superjohn]

I remain pretty firm on everything I've said about KD. He's one of the best basketball players ever. You let him square off with LeBron five times every June and he's bound to outplay him on some of those occasions. Tonight was one of those nights. 43 points on 23 shots is a glitch in the system, straight up. That's create a player mode. And he was phenomenal defensively as well.

LeBron was timid in the second half. He needed to live in the paint and seek out those Curry/Thompson switches. Settling for jumpers a couple times late, deferring to role players like Thompson and Smith at inopportune times, holding the ball too late in the shot clock and then giving it up in crisis...he just left some plays on the table tonight that we expect him to make. It's one thing to have a night where maybe you're not comfortable with your jump shot, but in those situations I'd like to think he can grind it out, get to the line a dozen times, and carry his team across the finish line on fumes. I don't want to do the constant MJ comparison but if we're keeping score at home, he seemed to fair better in these sort of rock fights. I feel like he would have found a way to get that one. Not the series, but that one.

Having said that, the gap between LeBron and the world's second best player is larger than it's ever been. It was predictable that people would fool themselves into thinking this was a conversation because it was predictable that KD would play the cleaner, more efficient games for the winning team in this series. This is the perfect match-up for him and the brilliance of his decision to join this organization is that everything has been lined up for him on a tee. I don't resent him for it at all and would do the same thing if I were in his position, but this whole Warriors team is still child's play in comparison to the guy lining up for the other side. Everyone who watches ball knows the score on that one.

Why doesn't Lebron guard Durant? I can't imagine Jordan or even Kobe shirking that challenge.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Why doesn't Lebron guard Durant? I can't imagine Jordan or even Kobe shirking that challenge.

Calm down boy

He was busy executing the game plan, which was to limit steph and klay to make KD beat them. He barely did, despite the talent difference

 

[superjohn]

Calm down boy

He was busy executing the game plan, which was to limit steph and klay to make KD beat them. He barely did, despite the talent difference

Limit Steph and Klay? I've never seen Steph miss more open shots.
The "Calm down boy" line was good though, I love it when Vegan Gainz tries to act tough.

 

[auror]

43 points on 23 shots is a glitch in the system, straight up. That's create a player mode.

Ha, exactly! That's like when I make "Auror" and he's 7'2" with 100 in shooting and agility.

LeBron was timid in the second half. He needed to live in the paint and seek out those Curry/Thompson switches. Settling for jumpers a couple times late, deferring to role players like Thompson and Smith at inopportune times, holding the ball too late in the shot clock and then giving it up in crisis...he just left some plays on the table tonight that we expect him to make. It's one thing to have a night where maybe you're not comfortable with your jump shot, but in those situations I'd like to think he can grind it out, get to the line a dozen times, and carry his team across the finish line on fumes. I don't want to do the constant MJ comparison but if we're keeping score at home, he seemed to fair better in these sort of rock fights. I feel like he would have found a way to get that one.

Jordan lost rock fights. MJ had single digit Game Scores in 2/3 years in the Finals during the 2nd 3-peat (low shooting %s, low 20s points, sub 5 rebounds & assists, and a few turnovers) in losses. This is probably LeBron's worst game of the last 2 Finals and he had a 33/10/11 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 46% shooting while playing 47 minutes. Potentially on a twisted ankle. The difference is that when LeBron has played well the other games, they've still lost because the other team is better and his teammates are worse than Jordan's.

Without LeBron, this Cavs team wins.... 35 games? Kevin Love won 40 games once in 6 years in Minnesota and this team is about as good as his best one there (but Love himself is not as good anymore).

 

[auror]

Why doesn't Lebron guard Durant? I can't imagine Jordan or even Kobe shirking that challenge.

He was plenty of times. They'd just run a PnR and switch onto Love anyways. It doesn't matter.

 

[champs99and04]

I do find it weird that you are totally cool with KD's move, but you have almost outward animosity towards Kyrie for going to Boston. He saw a better future (not present) in Boston than in Cleveland; he was right.

I mean, I'm cool with KD's move because I like KD and I like the Warriors. I have acknowledged that if my rooting interests were different, I would probably hate KD for doing it.

My animosity towards Kyrie started when he went to Duke, to be clear, and I'm not trying to depict him as a bad person or anything like that. But asking out of Cleveland, one year removed from a championship, when the best player in the world hand picked you as the centerpiece of his coming home tour, is the height of arrogance, not to mention the fact that unlike LeBron and unlike KD, he was under contract for another two years.

I understand that playing with LeBron is no picnic. He isn't a saint. His body language is often poor, he complains a lot of about the officiating, sometimes to the detriment of his team, and he isn't afraid to show teammates up on the court. And that's just what we see. In the film room and on the practice court, you have to believe he comes off as arrogant, bossy, stubborn, and ungrateful. I can see how an intelligent kid like Kyrie who had already accomplished so much would have felt he'd graduated from b____ duty.

But everyone else LeBron's ever played with sucked it up. And those guys were his peers. Kyrie is seven years younger than LeBron, never accomplished a damn thing before LeBron got there, and actually had far more freedom on the court than other guys, like Love or Bosh, who made bigger sacrifices. I thought he should have put his ego to the side and embraced the challenge. At the very least, I don't think he should have blindsided him like he did.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

His teammates played fine tonight, that just wasn't a great game from him in a must win.

Love did, but also did almost nothing in the second half.. Rodney Hood finally played and played pretty well. Who else? And this is without mentioning the absolutely atrocious defense JR and Co. played the entire night on pick and rolls.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Limit Steph and Klay? I've never seen Steph miss more open shots.
The "Calm down boy" line was good though, I love it when Vegan Gainz tries to act tough.

You have nothing but boyish love for MJ and hate for LBJ. I have nothing to call you besides "boy".

Also because we are low on olive oil/vinaigrette

 

[superjohn]

Love did, but also did almost nothing in the second half.. Rodney Hood finally played and played pretty well. Who else? And this is without mentioning the absolutely atrocious defense JR and Co. played the entire night on pick and rolls.

Who played well for the Warriors? Steph and Klay had the worst games you'll ever see from them. It was a must win on his floor and Lebron was throwing bail out passes to Tristan Thompson with the game on the line. He still got his triple double because he's that good but that's about the most hollow huge stat line you'll see.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Who played well for the Warriors? Steph and Klay had the worst games you'll ever see from them. It was a must win on his floor and Lebron was throwing bail out passes to Tristan Thompson with the game on the line. He still got his triple double because he's that good but that's about the most hollow huge stat line you'll see.

Its easy to call them bailout passes from our sofa while LeBron is dealing with 4 players that are absolutely keyed in on him on defense. Hood was the only other player who could score in the second half. JRand Korver are on the team to hit threes and can’t, so that adds to the pressure and the clogging of the paint.

 

[Horatio]

Lebron has K Love as a consistent team mate and that’s it. What else is there to debate. Outside of Tristan and Love, everyone else should be coming off the bench. There’s no need for further forensics.
The team is comprised of role/bench players. The end.

 

[Dogdeacon]

I mean, I'm cool with KD's move because I like KD and I like the Warriors. I have acknowledged that if my rooting interests were different, I would probably hate KD for doing it.

My animosity towards Kyrie started when he went to Duke, to be clear, and I'm not trying to depict him as a bad person or anything like that. But asking out of Cleveland, one year removed from a championship, when the best player in the world hand picked you as the centerpiece of his coming home tour, is the height of arrogance, not to mention the fact that unlike LeBron and unlike KD, he was under contract for another two years.

I understand that playing with LeBron is no picnic. He isn't a saint. His body language is often poor, he complains a lot of about the officiating, sometimes to the detriment of his team, and he isn't afraid to show teammates up on the court. And that's just what we see. In the film room and on the practice court, you have to believe he comes off as arrogant, bossy, stubborn, and ungrateful. I can see how an intelligent kid like Kyrie who had already accomplished so much would have felt he'd graduated from b____ duty.

But everyone else LeBron's ever played with sucked it up. And those guys were his peers. Kyrie is seven years younger than LeBron, never accomplished a damn thing before LeBron got there, and actually had far more freedom on the court than other guys, like Love or Bosh, who made bigger sacrifices. I thought he should have put his ego to the side and embraced the challenge. At the very least, I don't think he should have blindsided him like he did.

The exact chronology is debatable, but its pretty well established that Kyrie didn't demand to be traded until after the failed 3-way trade that was essentially Kyrie+Frye for Bledsoe + Paul George. That was definitely spurred by Kyrie discontent, but it wasn't until after they tried and failed to make than trade that he demanded to be traded. That and front office vacuum when Griffin left is why there was no attempt to convince Kyrie to stay = you (LeBron) can't sincerely implore him to stay when he knows you signed off on trading him. Essentially at that moment or later once Isaiah Thomas' injury was known the Cavs lost hope of winning the 2018 championship.

What is Kyrie Irving chasing?

 

[UConnTrumbull]

I just love watching Lebron lose. Don’t care who does it.

 

[superjohn]

You have nothing but boyish love for MJ and hate for LBJ. I have nothing to call you besides "boy".

Also because we are low on olive oil/vinaigrette

I'm a Knicks fan, I promise you I don't love Jordan but Jordan is just better than Lebron.

 

[champs99and04]

Why doesn't Lebron guard Durant? I can't imagine Jordan or even Kobe shirking that challenge.

Not really the way it works with today's switching defenses. LeBron did match up with KD late but Golden State will eventually get the match-up they want.

 

[MadDogRevival]

"LeBron should have done more in the 2nd half."
Guy's only negative in this game was that he was 1-6 from 3.
He played 47 minutes, goes 12-22 from 2, triple double, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 6 of 7 from the line for 33 total points.
"Kobe would have guarded Durant."
"Jordan would have found a way."
"Jordan is better."

I took a random look at the Supersonics series for Jordan (4th ring). Guy averaged about 42 minutes a game. In the game 5 loss by 11, Jordan was 11 for 22 from 2, 0 for 4 from 3, 4 of 5 from the line, 4 boards, 1 assist, and 1 steal in 43 minutes, and 26 points. Against the historically top notch Supersonics, starting Payton, Kempf, Shrempf, Hawkins and Brickowski.

"Kobe would have guarded Durant." That's gold right there.

LeBron plays all but 1 minute, puts up a triple double, has dog-s---t for help on the team offensively, is part of a defense that gave up about 15 or 20 dunks and uncontested layups in the 2nd half, all while playing a super-charged offense that brings guys off the bench who would probably start for the Cavs, and the complaint is that LeBron doesn't take the challenge of fighting over screens to guard Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant.

Look at Jordan's numbers again in that close-out game against the Supersonics (26 points, 4 boards, 1 assist). If LeBron posted those numbers guys would literally be saying that he was mailing it in. Think about that - if LeBron posted Jordan numbers last night people would be saying he folded. Some clown on the radio, after the Cavs dropped 2 to the Celtics, questioned whether LeBron really wanted to get back to the finals. Holy canoli batman.

Everybody needs to take a step back and really think about what this guy is doing.

He close to single-handedly dragged a lottery team to the finals by playing two of the greatest playoff series that we have ever seen, and then follows that up by posting one of the greatest single game performances in posting 51 in a massive night in game one only to straight up be robbed of the win at gunpoint, which would have put massive pressure on the W's last night, and when he comes up and puts up numbers that only a handful of guys who have ever played could put up in a finals against a team like the Warriors, the complaint is that he could have done more and he had an off night. Rodney Hood was his #2 guy last night!!! Rodney freaking Hood!

Unreal. A lot of you don't deserve to watch the man play the game.

 

[champs99and04]

Ha, exactly! That's like when I make "Auror" and he's 7'2" with 100 in shooting and agility.



Jordan lost rock fights. MJ had single digit Game Scores in 2/3 years in the Finals during the 2nd 3-peat (low shooting %s, low 20s points, sub 5 rebounds & assists, and a few turnovers) in losses. This is probably LeBron's worst game of the last 2 Finals and he had a 33/10/11 with 2 steals and 2 blocks on 46% shooting while playing 47 minutes. Potentially on a twisted ankle. The difference is that when LeBron has played well the other games, they've still lost because the other team is better and his teammates are worse than Jordan's.

Without LeBron, this Cavs team wins.... 35 games? Kevin Love won 40 games once in 6 years in Minnesota and this team is about as good as his best one there (but Love himself is not as good anymore).

OK. The bit about MJ winning "those type of games" could have just been me pulling something out of my ass based on some hazy second hand accounts (honestly probably from some posters ITT).

I agree with the overall point that LeBron is amazing.

 

[mike012]

Lebron should just join the Warriors for the next 2 or 3 years. Get 2 or 3 more rings and say "what do you want from me"? MJ isn't taking this Cavs team to a title either. RJ Smith wont allow it......

 

[champs99and04]

Although I could quibble with @MadDogRevival possibly misquoting me, I have to say he pretty much nailed it with that last post. LeBron is graded by a lot of people on an entirely different scale than Jordan. That doesn't mean he's better, necessarily, but I don't see how you can argue that these last two finals' have done anything but enhanced LeBron's legacy.

 

[superjohn]

Although I could quibble with @MadDogRevival possibly misquoting me, I have to say he pretty much nailed it with that last post. LeBron is graded by a lot of people on an entirely different scale than Jordan. That doesn't mean he's better, necessarily, but I don't see how you can argue that these last two finals' have done anything but enhanced LeBron's legacy.

People seem to want to make the comparison all the time. Lebron is amazing just when compared to Jordan he always comes up short. You had it right the first time when you said Jordan finds a way to win that game last night.

 

[MadDogRevival]

RJ Smith wont allow it.

This is hilariously true. I don't fault "RJ" for gaffing on the final shot. Refs jobbed the Cavs, Hill missed the Free, and JR, after all, grabbed the O-Board and there was no guarantee that they were going to hit the shot. In the end, guy takes too much heat for that and he did the refs a service by taking the spotlight off the canard they pulled.

That said, JR Smith, on the Ws, wouldn't play a minute. Not because he "doesn't" fit, but because he's not good enough. When the guy has the ball and has to dribble it's an adventure akin to when GWB went off script on a live mic and tried to ad lib - you just never knew what kind of hot mess would be created - like watching an already-crying toddler stumble, eyes half closed, while screaming - you're expecting the crash and greater scream.
JR Smith is a massive liability when he's not spot up shooting a 3. And he's streaky to boot, which means he's the kind of guy who can go out there and give you 40 minutes of nothing.

 

[Dogdeacon]

FWIW, chances are if JR knows the score and follows his instincts he puts up a 12 foot fadeaway that is short and game 1 goes to OT anyway.
IF he knew the score I'd say 75%-ish JR shoots it and maybe 40% chance he makes it. The other 25% is he passes to LeBron and we all assume 100% LeBron caps his incredible game, but reality is that its a 50%-ish shot - good look at an open 3.

Hot take is JR kinda bailed LeBron out of blame game. The Cavs were losing the series regardless, if LeBron misses its on him. If LeBron makes it then everyone suddenly thinks the Cavs have a legit chance in the series and it looks worse for LeBron when they lose in 5 or 6 tops.

Of course the blame game is stupid and LeBron is great and this circle of logic that always ends in a Cavs loss is why LeBron has to leave. I honestly think Houston is the leader in the clubhouse right now especially in light of ESPN's Durant vs LeBron flipping the script matchup. If I'm LeBron I want to beat own that guy and whereas Houston and GState essentially played for the title this year it'd be good odds if LeBron is in Houston that repeats in 19.

#2 is LeBron adds PG-13 as a free agent and the Cavs retool hoping Boston & Philly are still one year away.

 

[superjohn]

This is hilariously true. I don't fault "RJ" for gaffing on the final shot. Refs jobbed the Cavs, Hill missed the Free, and JR, after all, grabbed the O-Board and there was no guarantee that they were going to hit the shot. In the end, guy takes too much heat for that and he did the refs a service by taking the spotlight off the canard they pulled.

That said, JR Smith, on the Ws, wouldn't play a minute. Not because he "doesn't" fit, but because he's not good enough. When the guy has the ball and has to dribble it's an adventure akin to when GWB went off script on a live mic and tried to ad lib - you just never knew what kind of inanity would follow.
JR Smith is a massive liability when he's not spot up shooting a 3. And he's streaky to boot, which means he's the kind of guy who can go out there and give you 40 minutes of nothing.

And the entire reason he's on the Cavs is because of GM Lebron.

 

[champs99and04]

People seem to want to make the comparison all the time. Lebron is amazing just when compared to Jordan he always comes up short. You had it right the first time when you said Jordan finds a way to win that game last night.

I stand by my statement that Jordan finds a way to win last night's game. LeBron had 33, but it took him 28 shots to get there. That's not good enough against a team that scores like the Warriors.

That being said, the fact that this is considered a bad game for LeBron goes to show how ridiculous he is. Perhaps Jordan wins game three, but I also don't see him duplicating what LeBron did in game one.

It's hard to know because Jordan played in a different time. As good as Golden State is defensively, you sometimes get the sense that they're something of a gimmick. Even if Jordan played in today's game, I don't think smaller guys would switch onto him as liberally as they do LeBron.

 

[Rocktheworld]

I stand by my statement that Jordan finds a way to win last night's game. LeBron had 33, but it took him 28 shots to get there. That's not good enough against a team that scores like the Warriors.

27, because the NBA counts that backboard self-assist as a missed shot and rebound.

So he went 12 of 21 from inside 3, was 6/7 from the line, got a triple double to extend the record of Finals triple doubles he already holds, and “That’s not good enough”.

Per ESPN, Bron has now registered at least 25 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists in each of his past 10 Finals games. No other player in Finals history has even done that in two consecutive games.

That’s not an indictment on Bron; it’s an indictment on his team and how much he has to do to even keep games competitive.

 

[champs99and04]

27, because the NBA counts that backboard self-assist as a missed shot and rebound.

So he went 12 of 21 from inside 3, was 6/7 from the line, got a triple double, and “That’s not good enough”.

Per ESPN, Bron has now registered at least 25 points, 8 rebounds and 8 assists in each of his past 10 Finals games. No other player in Finals history has even done that in two consecutive games.

That’s not an indictment on Bron; it’s an indictment on his team and how much he has to do to even keep games competitive.

It's not an indictment on LeBron in a general sense, but if we're trying to fit him for the title of greatest player ever, you have to be ruthless. With Thompson and Curry struggling, that was a winnable game. The counting numbers are going to be somewhat inflated by the fact that he plays an unprecedented amount of minutes (though that's exactly what makes it so impressive).

Perhaps he was simply worn down. Maybe he was hurting. Either way, there was some meat left on the bone. It doesn't really influence my take big picture, but if I'm going to tout the merits of LeBron as the greatest basketball player I've ever seen, I have to be fair and concede that last night isn't going on page one of the bio. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[tzznandrew]

In the game 5 loss by 11, Jordan was 11 for 22 from 2, 0 for 4 from 3, 4 of 5 from the line, 4 boards, 1 assist, and 1 steal in 43 minutes, and 26 points. Against the historically top notch Supersonics, starting Payton, Kempf, Shrempf, Hawkins and Brickowski.

They were up 3-0 in that series...

 

[superjohn]

"LeBron should have done more in the 2nd half."
Guy's only negative in this game was that he was 1-6 from 3.
He played 47 minutes, goes 12-22 from 2, triple double, 2 steals, 2 blocks, 6 of 7 from the line for 33 total points.
"Kobe would have guarded Durant."
"Jordan would have found a way."
"Jordan is better."

I took a random look at the Supersonics series for Jordan (4th ring). Guy averaged about 42 minutes a game. In the game 5 loss by 11, Jordan was 11 for 22 from 2, 0 for 4 from 3, 4 of 5 from the line, 4 boards, 1 assist, and 1 steal in 43 minutes, and 26 points. Against the historically top notch Supersonics, starting Payton, Kempf, Shrempf, Hawkins and Brickowski.

"Kobe would have guarded Durant." That's gold right there.

LeBron plays all but 1 minute, puts up a triple double, has dog-s---t for help on the team offensively, is part of a defense that gave up about 15 or 20 dunks and uncontested layups in the 2nd half, all while playing a super-charged offense that brings guys off the bench who would probably start for the Cavs, and the complaint is that LeBron doesn't take the challenge of fighting over screens to guard Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant.

Look at Jordan's numbers again in that close-out game against the Supersonics (26 points, 4 boards, 1 assist). If LeBron posted those numbers guys would literally be saying that he was mailing it in. Think about that - if LeBron posted Jordan numbers last night people would be saying he folded. Some clown on the radio, after the Cavs dropped 2 to the Celtics, questioned whether LeBron really wanted to get back to the finals. Holy canoli batman.

Everybody needs to take a step back and really think about what this guy is doing.

He close to single-handedly dragged a lottery team to the finals by playing two of the greatest playoff series that we have ever seen, and then follows that up by posting one of the greatest single game performances in posting 51 in a massive night in game one only to straight up be robbed of the win at gunpoint, which would have put massive pressure on the W's last night, and when he comes up and puts up numbers that only a handful of guys who have ever played could put up in a finals against a team like the Warriors, the complaint is that he could have done more and he had an off night. Rodney Hood was his #2 guy last night!!! Rodney freaking Hood!

Unreal. A lot of you don't deserve to watch the man play the game.

You're right, a Supersonics team that won 64 regular season games and had Payton finish 6th in MVP voting and Kemp finish 8th in MVP voting isn't any good. Hersey Hawkins and Detlef were also damn good nba players.

Nice little factoid- Lebron never defeated 3 50+ win teams or 2 60+ win teams in the playoffs, Jordan did it 5 of his 6 championship years.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Nice little factoid- Lebron never defeated 3 50+ win teams or 2 60+ win teams in the playoffs, Jordan did it 5 of his 6 championship years.

And despite going up against these allegedly weaker teams, Bron has been favored in what, two of his nine finals?

In how many finals was MJ an underdog?

 

[Dogdeacon]

LeBron's playoff run, especially games 6-7 in Eastern Conf finals and game 1 of finals were Jordan-esque and order qualifiers for the conversation. In my mind he's in the GOAT debate right now and although the d-measuring contest has begun, where Jordan v LeBron stands on 6/18 will ultimately be irrelevant. No one talks about when Jordan surpassed Kareem or Bill Russell. Its on and the durability, length of career and counting stats are going to start to get crazy in LeBron's favor. I'm really interested to see where it goes. I personally believe in the Jordan peak as more transcendent than what we are seeing now = Even though LeBron's overall offensive game might be stronger, peak Jordan is a better late-game closer than Durant and I agree with those that say he finds a way to win game 3. Yet I also don't think Jordan ever played as complete a game as LeBron did in game 1.

I've really enjoyed watching LeBron play this post-season, he's unquestionably gotten better since even his late Miami days and I think there might even be more coming for at least a season or two - especially if he gets himself to a team where they can manage his minutes. That seems vital at this point for both longevity (a certain goal for him as he wants to play with his son) and effectiveness. I think next year will see a return to that crazy super-efficient LeBron that we saw in his last two Heat seasons. Its too bad LeBron isn't also on a juggernaut team where he can play 35 regular season minutes and be fresher & play an intense 40-ish in playoffs. IF that were the case he could have been employed to cover KD last night in a non-switching scheme and try to shut him down while the rest of the team scheme focused on Steph. That's a reason LeBron would be a good fit for the Rockets (how you fit that with Harden's ball dominance is a stumbling block).