NBA Playoffs

[ihatepants]

Anyway, the NBA’s “Last Two Minute Report” is out. Draymond Green committed a lane violation on Hill’s second (missed) free throw that should have been called, allowing him to shoot again. He also committed a foul while over the bonus, that should have led to Cavs free throws (with LeBron at the line instead of Hill)

 

[Rocktheworld]

LOL if you still think Jordan is better than LeBron. LeBron is the GOAT because context matters. Dragging a wasteman team to the finals many times is more impressive than winning with a team full of Hall of Famers.

Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals till he had Pippen for like 3 years. Bron got there with Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Beat a Pistons team coming off their third straight Finals to get there, too

Beating the greatest regular season team of all time is worth a ton.

Man he didn't just beat them, he came back from 3-1

If you want to talk resumes and accomplishments, sure, but that argument can't be had until LeBron's done. But there has never been someone playing the game at a better and higher level than he is.

Kerr, famed team mate of MJ, said literally this last night

 

[Lefty2one]

Saying Pippen was not the same player is straight up BS. He was still in the top 5 in the NBA in win shares in both 96 and 97. How many teammates did Lebron have also have top 10 WS when he played with them? None. Rodman was also in the top 5 in defensive win shares and top 10 in defensive rating after he joined the Bulls.

Yay, nothing but advanced stats. Always a good idea to use nothing but one advanced stat in an argument...

Dive into WS and WS/48 and you'll see all kinds of crazy names and trends. Defensive WS especially is an extremely flawed metric.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yay, nothing but advanced stats. Always a good idea to use nothing but one advanced stat in an argument...

Dive into WS and WS/48 and you'll see all kinds of crazy names and trends. Defensive WS especially is an extremely flawed metric.

Yeah because there are always outliers in statistical data. Is Pippen a statistical outlier?

 

[ihatepants]

Yeah because there are always outliers in statistical data. Is Pippen a statistical outlier?

That’s the joke, I guess. WS/48 can result in some weird names being included because it’s a per minute stat and can have some guys without much playing time scoring high. WS itself is over the course of the entire season. And by the way, Pippen’s PER that year was also 21.0, which was right in line with his career’s peak (and above his career average 18.6). His VORP in 96 was also 6.3. But sure, he just wasn’t the same player anymore.

 

[Lefty2one]

Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals till he had Pippen for like 3 years. Bron got there with Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

MJ didn't get there because of the Bad Boy Pistons, a team so good they were a game away from a 3-peat. Just a little tougher than what LeBron faced in the East early in his career (or at any point in his career). LeBron got to the 2007 Finals and finally faced some stiff competition and was terrible - a TS of .426 (36/20/69) and nearly a 1:1 AST:TO.

MJ individually was terrorizing the Pistons (a far better team historically than the 2007 Spurs); great scoring numbers with efficiency.

 

[UofCT]

What's the joke? Peak Wade is better than anyone on that list, and peak Kyrie is better than anyone but Pippen. Peak Bosh is a much better two way player than anyone on that list but Pippen.

Peak Wade better than Pippen. Got it

 

[UofCT]

Dear lord, pick up a history book or find some YouTube clips. You're making yourself look ridiculous.

Good advice. Read up on Pippen and Rodman. Not sure if you have ever heard of this thing called the Hall of Fame but they are both in it.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

LeBron got to the 2007 Finals and finally faced some stiff competition and was terrible - a TS of .426 (36/20/69) and nearly a 1:1 AST:TO.

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

 

[Rocktheworld]

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

I was about to reply asking what MJ was doing at the same age.

He was what, still playing for another legendary coach in Dean Smith? And who was coaching LeBron by the way (then, or any other time)?

 

[Lefty2one]

That’s the joke, I guess. WS/48 can result in some weird names being included because it’s a per minute stat and can have some guys without much playing time scoring high. WS itself is over the course of the entire season. And by the way, Pippen’s PER that year was also 21.0, which was right in line with his career’s peak (and above his career average 18.6). His VORP in 96 was also 6.3. But sure, he just wasn’t the same player anymore.

It was more a commentary on his postseason play and the headlines I remember from the time.

1991 Finals: 20/9/6 on 45% FG
1992 Finals: 20/8/8 on 48% FG
1993 Finals: 21/9/8 on 44% FG

1996 Finals: 16/8/5 on 34% FG
1997 Finals: 20/8/3 on 42% FG
1998 Finals: 16/7/5 on 41% FG

He had back issues one year, 97 or 98. He could barely move in one of the Finals the last couple games. They weren't the same, menacing duo they were during the first 3-peat. 1996 maybe, but not this last two years.

 

[Lefty2one]

It is not possible to look at that 2007 Cavs roster and not laugh out loud at how terrible it was. Who's the second best player? Boobie Gibson? Ilgauskus?

And you're talking about a 22 year old kid carrying that roster to the finals and putting up 22-7-7.

It's not any worse than the 87-88 Bulls team and a 24-year-old MJ who ran into Detroit and posted 27/9/5 on 49% FG. Only difference is the East wasn't a train wreck early in MJ's career and hit a juggernaut earlier.

 

[Lefty2one]

I was about to reply asking what MJ was doing at the same age.

He was what, still playing for another legendary coach in Dean Smith? And who was coaching LeBron by the way (then, or any other time)?

That was the year of the broken ankle. He came back and posted 37/5/5 on 49% as a 23-year-old.

 

[Rocktheworld]

That was the year of the broken ankle. He came back and posted 37/5/5 on 49% as a 23-year-old.

24, and they got knocked out by the Celtics in the first round because they limped in to the playoffs as the bottom seed after going under .500.

Bron first put up 31/7/7 when he could barely legally drink. Did it on 48%

In which year of his career was MJ no longer the best player in the league?

Because in year 15 (the total seasons MJ played), Bron is still by far the best player in the league.

 

[superjohn]

Because you’re acting like Pippen isn’t a top 25 player in the history of the NBA and keep forgetting that he’s better than anyone LeBron has ever played with.

This is crazy town. You're the one who said Jordan wins with teams full of Hall of famers. You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade. Wade was neck and neck for best shooting guard in the league with Kobe and one of the best players in the league. You're not even old enough to remember it was Lebron joining up with Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?

 

[ihatepants]

You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade

I guess CBS, Fox Sports, SLAM, Sports Illustrated and ESPN all must be crazy as well, because they all rank Pippen above Wade.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?

Dominating...? Lol before Shaq showed up he was bounced in round 2. Then in 05 made it to the conference finals with Shaq averaging 20. Then the last two years with Shaq, swept by the Bulls in 07. Missed the playoffs in 08. Then in between Shaq and LeBron, Lost in round 1 in 7 games to Atlanta. Lost in 5 to Boston in 2010. Total dominance.

Pippen on his own got the 2 seed and made it to the second round; then the third seed and the second round. In a time in which I'm sure you'd like to purport the East was far better than it was 07-10

This whole "you're not old enough..." argument will never hold weight. I think you're in your mid-late 30s or something?* So you were an adolescent boy during MJ's career? That explains a lot

*bad look for someone that age to still be waiting tables. You gotta get off the internet and work on that my man.

 

[intlzncster]

Jordan couldn't even get to the Finals till he had Pippen for like 3 years. Bron got there with Zydrunas Ilgauskas. Beat a Pistons team coming off their third straight Finals to get there, too


Man he didn't just beat them, he came back from 3-1


Kerr, famed team mate of MJ, said literally this last night

Jordan's teams played against more consistent quality teams in his conference than LeBron's did. Especially earlier with the Celtics, the Detroit Bad Boys, 76ers et al.

There's no getting around that the East has been crap for most (but not all) of LeBron's tenure.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

This is crazy town. You're the one who said Jordan wins with teams full of Hall of famers. You're nuts if you think Pippen is better than Wade. Wade was neck and neck for best shooting guard in the league with Kobe and one of the best players in the league. You're not even old enough to remember it was Lebron joining up with Wade who had already brought them a title while completely dominating the playoffs?

Wade won the championship 4 years earlier. Doesn’t really factor in.

 

[ihatepants]

Jordan's teams played against more consistent teams in his conference than LeBron's did. Especially earlier with the Celtics, the Detroit Bad Boys, 76ers et al.

There's no getting around that the East has been crap for most (but not all) of LeBron's tenure.

Part of the reason why Jordan faced tougher competition within his conference is because there were less teams, so the distribution of talent was tight within each conference. LeBron generally has faced tougher competition in the finals because player movement and joining with other superstars in free agency to form a superteam is a relatively new phenomenon (because unrestricted free agency wasn’t allowed until 1988).

 

[superjohn]

Dominating...? Lol before Shaq showed up he was bounced in round 2 (and of the 14 games he played across those three series, led in scoring in only 6). Then in 05 made it to the conference finals with Shaq averaging 20. Then the last two years with Shaq, swept by the Bulls in 07. Missed the playoffs in 08. Then in between Shaq and LeBron, Lost in round 1 in 7 games to Atlanta. Lost in 5 to Boston in 2010. Total dominance.

Pippen on his own got the 2 seed and made it to the second round; then the third seed and the second round. In a time in which I'm sure you'd like to purport the East was far better than it was 07-10

This whole "you're not old enough..." argument will never hold weight. I think you're in your mid-late 30s or something?* So you were an adolescent boy during MJ's career? That explains a lot

*bad look for someone that age to still be waiting tables. You gotta get off the internet and work on that my man.

Dwyane Wade averaged 35ppg, 8 rebs, 4 assists 3 steals in the finals, winning MVP. Shaq averaged 14 & 10. If you didn't keep saying rididulous things people wouldn't keep saying you didn't watch the games.

Dude, you basically said Jordan didn't do anything his first 3 years in the league before Pippen came along totally disregarding the East was a gauntlet the likes we haven't seen since. The '86 Celtics are the best team to ever play the game and would wax the East teams by 50.

So the Lebron fans in this thread say Jordan is the one who played with all the all-stars and hall of famers in his career when he only played with 1 all-star player and 2 hall of fame players.

Lebron- 5 all-star players
Jordan-1

Lebron- 4 Hall of famers, with 1 probable, and 1 maybe
Jordan- 2 Hall of famers

You shouldn't make fun of people's work and call people trash. I've never waited a table in my life and sure as hell would never make fun of anyone who does, man you've got to be better than that. Since money seems really important to you, I promise you I make a lot more of it than you do. You've revealed that about yourself.

 

[ihatepants]

Lebron- 5 all-star players
Jordan-1

Lebron- 4 Hall of famers, with 1 probable, and 1 maybe
Jordan- 2 Hall of famers

What about who was coaching them, then? Who was the best coach Lebron played for? Spo? How does he compare with Phil Jackson, who is universally regarded as one of the best of all time, if not the best. Looking through your posting history, I know you give a lot of credit to coaching and how it makes up for a difference in on the court talent, because you can’t stop talking about Brad Stevens and how important he is to the Celtics’ success. Are you just going to ignore the fact that Lebron has played for a variety of bad coaches (Lue, Paul Silas, Brendan Malone, Mike Brown and David Blatt) and has had only one good one his entire career? While Jordan played for arguably the best. Shouldn’t that also be part of the comparison between Lebron and Jordan?

 

[Rocktheworld]

Dwyane Wade averaged 35ppg, 8 rebs, 4 assists 3 steals in the finals, winning MVP. Shaq averaged 14 & 10. If you didn't keep saying rididulous things people wouldn't keep saying you didn't watch the games.

Had a great series and season. And outside that...? You're the one who used the phrase "completely dominated", speaking of ridiculous statements...

Dude, you basically said Jordan didn't do anything his first 3 years in the league before Pippen came along totally disregarding the East was a gauntlet the likes we haven't seen since. The '86 Celtics are the best team to ever play the game and would wax the East teams by 50.

Bruh, I'll totally acknowledge that Jordan only started winning when Bird was on the decline and the league got watered down. And when he got Pippen. LOL just noticed who liked this post, "mjmoney23"

So the Lebron fans in this thread say Jordan is the one who played with all the all-stars and hall of famers in his career when he only played with 1 all-star player and 2 hall of fame players.

On one team at any given time? Sure. Bron played with no more than 2 all stars at any given moment, and on each of those teams went to 4 straight Finals. MJ never went to more than 3, and he was also coached by Phil. Bron won that championship in 2016 coming back from 3-1 on that GSW team without any, which blew my mind too; had to triple-take that...

In 2011, the first season of the newly formed Heat, he took out a Celtics team with 4 All-Stars (in that season, not just tallying up all the players who ever appeared in an ASG like you do so disingenuously below) in 5 games. Did MJ ever go through a team with 4 all-stars and a Doc Rivers-caliber coach?

Lebron- 5 all-star players
Jordan-1

Lebron- 4 Hall of famers, with 1 probable, and 1 maybe
Jordan- 2 Hall of famers

I don't think Love gets to the Hall. You think Bosh will? Wade, sure. Then Ray, who averaged 10 points in his two years in Miami. Way too early to talk about Kyrie.

I'll give you 2 (one averaging 10 ppg as above), maybe a third for LeBron; but MJ gets a third HOF in Phil.

You shouldn't make fun of people's work and call people trash. I've never waited a table in my life and sure as hell would never make fun of anyone who does, man you've got to be better than that.

Buddy have you forgot our harmless running joke about you?

Since money seems really important to you,

Swing and a miss

I promise you I make a lot more of it than you do. You've revealed that about yourself.

I would sure hope by now. By your late 30s I'd hope you'd have moved up to fine dining. I know plenty of service industry people, and those chicks and dudes RAKE IT IN at that level.

 

[MadDogRevival]

Without Ray Allen Lebron would be 2-6 in the finals and staring down 2-7.

Yeah, but without LeBron, LeBron would be 0 and 0 in the finals.

 

[Rocktheworld]

Yeah, but without LeBron, LeBron would be 0 and 0 in the finals.

How'd I miss that?

@superjohn when you're parroting Skip Bayless retorts...