NBA Playoffs

[intlzncster]

I've always said Jordan would have 8 or more titles had his father never been murdered and his early retirement at 34. Lebron did the smart thing to create an awesome team down in Miami and help the Cavs get #1 picks before his return. I didn't like the whole announcement "taking my talents to South Beach" thing but it was a smart move and can't hold it against him.

A point not too many bring up in this discussion. It's often Jordan 6 to LeBron 3. But MJ's broke for a couple of years in his prime. And that affects all comparative stats as well.

 

[UofCT]

Damn. Pretty strong case for MJ right there (had my vote before seeing that). I think LBJ is going to get some serious consideration based on longevity, as i think he could play another 5+ years.

MJ played 15 seasons. Pretending MJ didn't play on the Wizards is ridiculous. He played on the Wizards, he was okay, his teams were terrible, and neither of those teams made the playoffs.

 

[the Q]

Yeah, but a number of those stats are absurd.

And some of those include team success (meh at best) and others assume the people voting make intelligent decisions (a laughable assumption, especially in the 80s...which were basically the lost years for intelligent mvp voting in Baseball...I doubt basketball was much better).

 

[CardiacAndre7]

Yeah, but a number of those stats are absurd.

Yeah, and I could go find absurd LeBron stats too, not very hard. I heard this point before and I think it is the most fair; MJ is the best player of his era, and LeBron the best of his. Switching their places in time would not be beneficial to either of them. If you’re one of those that thinks their must be a single GOAT, I think by careers end, Lebron will be.

 

[Lefty2one]

We can pick and choose statistics all day my man.

If you or anyone else can provide a similar list for LeBron I'd love to see it (I don't mean this in a snarky way).

 

[PAHusky]

I'll give one of the 2 years in Washington, he was hurt for around 20 games in the other. Let's not act like LeBron didnt have help though, he should have won at least 3 in Miami wirh wade and bosh. Plus he left Miami for a better team in Cleveland with Irving and eventually love. He has made 2 power play moves to change franchises to chase rings. No came out of retirement at 38 to try to lead a bad Washington team to the playoffs. Very different than jumping ship twice in your prime.

I think you responded to the wrong guy because your post makes no contextual sense

 

[intlzncster]

And some of those include team success (meh at best) and others assume the people voting make intelligent decisions (a laughable assumption, especially in the 80s...which were basically the lost years for intelligent mvp voting in Baseball...I doubt basketball was much better).

In basketball, and some positions like QB in other sports, team success matters, as that one player so greatly impacts the outcome of games and the play of his teammates. Remove winning from it, and the games are meaningless.

I know stats guys like to isolate things, but until you can measure competitiveness, killer instinct, intelligence/BBIQ, will power, ability to elevate teammates, etc....you've got to get a little subjective in comparisons.

 

[Lefty2one]

A point not too many bring up in this discussion. It's often Jordan 6 to LeBron 3. But MJ's broke for a couple of years in his prime. And that affects all comparative stats as well.

In addition to the benefit it would have had on MJ's stats, the Bulls at least would have won it all in 1994. I have no doubt about that. A lot of folks forget that Drexler didn't join Houston until 1995. The '94 team, that should have lost to the Knicks, was not very good in a historical context. Otis Thorpe was the second-leading scorer on that squad. I would venture to say he is the worst second-leading scorer for a championship team in history. 1995 may be up for debate but I have a hard time imagining Chicago losing that year as well.

Hakeem was at his peak then though, what a treat he was watch. Destroying The Admiral, Ewing and Shaq in a two-year span.

 

[intlzncster]

Yeah, and I could go find absurd LeBron stats too, not very hard. I heard this point before and I think it is the most fair; MJ is the best player of his era, and LeBron the best of his. Switching their places in time would not be beneficial to either of them. If you’re one of those that thinks their must be a single GOAT, I think by careers end, Lebron will be.

Not a list like that.

 

[Robertelamin]

Is anyone else tired of the MJ/LeBron debate? It now comes up after every playoff game LeBron plays.

 

[intlzncster]

In addition to the benefit it would have had on MJ's stats, the Bulls at least would have won it all in 1994. I have no doubt about that. A lot of folks forget that Drexler didn't join Houston until 1995. The '94 team, that should have lost to the Knicks, was not very good in a historical context. Otis Thorpe was the second-leading scorer on that squad. I would venture to say he is the worst second-leading scorer for a championship team in history. 1995 may be up for debate but I have a hard time imagining Chicago losing that year as well.

Hakeem was at his peak then though, what a treat he was watch. Destroying The Admiral, Ewing and Shaq in a two-year span.

Hakeem is underrated, as much as a MVP, 2x champ, 1st ballot HOF can be underrated.

 

[intlzncster]

Is anyone else tired of the MJ/LeBron debate? It now comes up after every playoff game LeBron plays.

Not really. Half the fun of sports is arguing about who's better, whether team or player.

 

[tzznandrew]

HAHAHAHA

What's the joke? Peak Wade is better than anyone on that list, and peak Kyrie is better than anyone but Pippen. Peak Bosh is a much better two way player than anyone on that list but Pippen.

 

[intlzncster]

What's the joke? Peak Wade is better than anyone on that list, and peak Kyrie is better than anyone but Pippen. Peak Bosh is a much better two way player than anyone on that list but Pippen.

The one thing I'd argue about is that I'd take peak Rodman over peak Bosh every single time. Bosh is a better shooter for sure, but I think Rodman could have scored more if he had to or was asked to over the course of his career. But he was so far ahead rebounding and defensively that it makes Bosh's offense moot. Rodman could pass a little bit too.

 

[tzznandrew]

MJ played 15 seasons. Pretending MJ didn't play on the Wizards is ridiculous. He played on the Wizards, he was okay, his teams were terrible, and neither of those teams made the playoffs.

Well, sure. But let's see LeBron's stat-line when he's 40.

MJ is the only player to average 20 ppg at the age of 40. Kobe was done at 37, but he was still putting up great numbers at LeBron's age. Kareem but up 14.6 and 6 when he was 4o. The year MJ turned 40 he put up a 20-4-6. He had almost a 20 PER. At 40!

 

[Robertelamin]

Not really. Half the fun of sports is arguing about who's better, whether team or player.

Sure I agree with that but not after every game.

 

[CardiacAndre7]

If you or anyone else can provide a similar list for LeBron I'd love to see it (I don't mean this in a snarky way).

I’m not gonna do it because honestly I just don’t feel like looking it up, but I will say his playoff totals, which are pretty easy to find, are more impressive than anyone else’s. Here’s one that is crazy:

• James holds the record for leading his team in points, rebounds and assists in 45 playoff games. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Tim Duncan all did it 45 times combined.

 

[Lefty2one]

HAHAHAHA

Dear lord, pick up a history book or find some YouTube clips. You're making yourself look ridiculous.

 

[tzznandrew]

The one thing I'd argue about is that I'd take peak Rodman over peak Bosh every single time. Bosh is a better shooter for sure, but I think Rodman could have scored more if he had to or was asked to over the course of his career. But he was so far ahead rebounding and defensively that it makes Bosh's offense moot. Rodman could pass a little bit too.

Bosh was an underrated defender and a very good rebounder. Rodman, on the Bulls, was 33-36, and never averaged more than 5.7 ppg. He might have been a better fit for those Jordan teams, but Bosh was a better player for the Heat.

 

[Lefty2one]

Bosh was an underrated defender and a very good rebounder. Rodman, on the Bulls, was 33-36, and never averaged more than 5.7 ppg. He might have been a better fit for those Jordan teams, but Bosh was a better player for the Heat.

This is the problem when young (or ignorant) people go back and look at history. They don't know the nuances of the era. They think Pippen and Rodman were at their peak for the entire duration of their Chicago tenures. They think Horace Grant was some great player; he averaged more than 15 PPG one time and it was 15.1. He made one All-Star team ('94, without MJ). Pippen wasn't an All-Star during the final Bulls dynasty season in '98. Rodman never made the All-Star team with the Bulls.

@UofCT2009 ...

Wade, Bosh, Love and Kyrie ALL made multiple All-Star teams while teammates of LeBron. You know how many All-Star teammates MJ? One: Pippen. Seven times. Not Grant, not Rodman, not Kukoc. He had ONE All-Star teammate his entire career and people act like he was on loaded teams.

In 25 years, people will bash LeBron for losing the 2014 Finals because they'll think he lost it with a prime Wade. Our country cares less and less about history with each passing decade. It's a shame.

 

[Dream Jobbed 2.0]

I’ll give the Warriors this: they make a die-hard Celtics fan root for the Cavs. That whole team is mind-blowingly unlikable. Curry is the goshdarn worst. Tries to have this underdog mentality because he didn’t get scholarship offers to Duke or UNC. Bro, you grew up the son of NBA all star. No one needs to pity you for anything.
You wanna know why the younguns these days act like entitled little whiny snobs? They all root for the Warriors.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

Well, sure. But let's see LeBron's stat-line when he's 40.

MJ is the only player to average 20 ppg at the age of 40. Kobe was done at 37, but he was still putting up great numbers at LeBron's age. Kareem but up 14.6 and 6 when he was 4o. The year MJ turned 40 he put up a 20-4-6. He had almost a 20 PER. At 40!

In game years, you would have to compare MJ at 40 to LeBron at 34 or 35. LeBron started three years earlier and Jordan missed 2.5 seasons due to injury and baseball. But I agree, Jordan at 40 was a marvel. To average 20 at a wing position at that age is sick.

 

[MilliniumPrince]

In addition to the benefit it would have had on MJ's stats, the Bulls at least would have won it all in 1994. I have no doubt about that. A lot of folks forget that Drexler didn't join Houston until 1995. The '94 team, that should have lost to the Knicks, was not very good in a historical context. Otis Thorpe was the second-leading scorer on that squad. I would venture to say he is the worst second-leading scorer for a championship team in history. 1995 may be up for debate but I have a hard time imagining Chicago losing that year as well.

Hakeem was at his peak then though, what a treat he was watch. Destroying The Admiral, Ewing and Shaq in a two-year span.

He didn't really destroy Shaq. What he did to Robinson should have lead to assault charges.

 

[mjmoney23]

I think you responded to the wrong guy because your post makes no contextual sense

You're right, I don't know what happened with that.

 

[intlzncster]

This is the problem when young (or ignorant) people go back and look at history. They don't know the nuances of the era. They think Pippen and Rodman were at their peak for the entire duration of their Chicago tenures. They think Horace Grant was some great player; he averaged more than 15 PPG one time and it was 15.1. He made one All-Star team ('94, without MJ). Pippen wasn't an All-Star during the final Bulls dynasty season in '98. Rodman never made the All-Star team with the Bulls.

@UofCT2009
Wade, Bosh, Love and Kyrie ALL made multiple All-Star teams while teammates of LeBron. You know how many All-Star teammates MJ? One: Pippen. Seven times. Not Grant, not Rodman, not Kukoc. He had ONE All-Star teammate his entire career and people act like he was on loaded teams.

Well, I watched him with the Bulls, and even at that age, he was the best pound for pound rebounder I've ever seen.

He was also still an elite defender. Bosh was often called soft. While Rodman was the exact opposite. Dude was incredibly strong. Hell, they even matched him up against Shaq! And Rodman could hold his own....as much as one can against Shaq.

Yes, Bosh is by far the better offensive player, so tzz's point about him being a more complete player is true. I said I'd take Rodman over him, because often times, it is more beneficial to have a player with 1 or 2 elite skills. But that's my opinion.

Rodman never made All Stars then because of his scoring, and more importantly, his antics.