NBA Discussion 2016/2017 | Page 4 | The Boneyard

NBA Discussion 2016/2017

champs99and04 said:
Cal took Tyreke, Doron Lamb and Brandon Knight. Can't argue with those choices, but we clearly got the better of the deal.
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Those three were better as freshman, that's Cal's scouting forte, finding the best guys right now in each class. But the Husky trio all developed into the better players as of today.
 
champs99and04 said:
I would argue that Jeremy was better than Doron by the end of his freshman year, but your point definitely holds.
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Definitely agree with that. I remember there was serious chatter of some teams saying they'd take Lamb late lottery/1st if he left after his freshman year. He wisely stayed and built up his stock but he could have been a first rounder as a freshman in my opinion. He had all the physical tools you would want in a 2 guard as a GM, plus the intangibles he showed as one of the best freshman in the country at the end of the year coming up big game after game.
 
Lamb going nuts in his return, was a top 15 sg in rpm last year, how hard is it to see he should play major minutes along side kemba? he should start and rich cho should listen to offers on a MKG + hawes package. If batum can't handle small forwards defensively they shouldnt have paid him all that money, facts.
 
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James said:
Lamb going nuts in his return, was a top 15 sg in rpm last year, how hard is it to see he should play major minutes along side kemba?
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He's been hurt. This is literally his first game all year at 100% health.

he should start and rich cho should listen to offers on a MKG + hawes package. If batum can't handle small forwards defensively they shouldnt have paid him all that money, facts.
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They're not going to trade MKG. I'm sure they'll trade Hawes if they can get anything half-decent in return.

As for Batum, he's always been a smidge better than average defensively, and a wonderful all-around offensive player. I'm sure once he's back from injury (and Marvin Williams) Clifford will figure out how to rotate all of those wings, plus Kemba & Sessions and end up a top 4 team in the East.
 
Matrim55 said:
They're not going to trade MKG. I'm sure they'll trade Hawes if they can get anything half-decent in return.

As for Batum, he's always been a smidge better than average defensively, and a wonderful all-around offensive player. I'm sure once he's back from injury (and Marvin Williams) Clifford will figure out how to rotate all of those wings, plus Kemba & Sessions and end up a top 4 team in the East.
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Hawes has basically 0 trade value, they'd probably be happy to trade him for anyone willing to offer cash or a late 2nd.


Batum is also well above average defensively, that's been his calling card as a player for years now.


Anyways, great stats for Lamb tonight! I didn't get to see the game, but I hope he was tighter defensively, and I hope he's given enough of a leash to play through if he loses a defender, it's not like Bellineli is a great option.
 
NielsisGood said:
Hawes has basically 0 trade value, they'd probably be happy to trade him for anyone willing to offer cash or a late 2nd.


Batum is also well above average defensively, that's been his calling card as a player for years now.
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I think you're confusing him with MKG, who's a legitimate high-end stopper. Batum's calling card is his ability as a point forward -- you can run the offense through him for huge swathes of time, which makes him a perfect complementary piece for a team built around Kemba.

Defensively he's a little bit above average because of his length. But bigger wings abuse him (he didn't guard Carmelo or Kawhi this week) and he has trouble keeping up with the best SGs when they run him off of screens.
 
Matrim55 said:
I think you're confusing him with MKG, who's a legitimate high-end stopper. Batum's calling card is his ability as a point forward -- you can run the offense through him for huge swathes of time, which makes him a perfect complementary piece for a team built around Kemba.

Defensively he's a little bit above average because of his length. But bigger wings abuse him (he didn't guard Carmelo or Kawhi this week) and he has trouble keeping up with the best SGs when they run him off of screens.
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No need to be patronizing. Batum has long been considered a high end defensive player, his passing ability has only been more recently recognized and utilized. He also held Melo to 7-25 last night, and even though Kawhi and Melo had good games on him earlier in the week, Leonard is arguably the only nightmare defender at SF anyways, and 2 elite offensive players having good games over the span of a week doesn't take away from the fact that Batum is probably a top 5 defender at his position (among starters). I'd love to discuss if you could propose 5 better.
 
Matrim55 said:
He's been hurt. This is literally his first game all year at 100% health.


They're not going to trade MKG. I'm sure they'll trade Hawes if they can get anything half-decent in return.

As for Batum, he's always been a smidge better than average defensively, and a wonderful all-around offensive player. I'm sure once he's back from injury (and Marvin Williams) Clifford will figure out how to rotate all of those wings, plus Kemba & Sessions and end up a top 4 team in the East.
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Sessions stinks and they couldn't even get a bag of chips in return for Hawes. The Hornets have some good pieces but those certainly aren't two of them.
 
NielsisGood said:
No need to be patronizing. Batum has long been considered a high end defensive player, his passing ability has only been more recently recognized and utilized. He also held Melo to 7-25 last night...
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I'm not being patronizing -- I legitimately thought you were mixing up Batum & MKG, and after that quote I'm sure of it, since Batum did not play last night and MKG guarded Carmelo every second he was on the floor.

Batum missed the game with a corneal abrasion after getting slapped in the face near the end of Friday's game at MSG.

Two other things:

First, Batum's all-around game has been a visible on the court from day one and in the stats for five years now -- he's en route to becoming the only forward in the league besides LeBron to average 6 apg or better for each of the last five years. More than the numbers, though, is that he has multiple ways of picking up assists (primarily through the pick-and-roll w/ Zeller, but he's also got excellent timing for finding shooters coming off of screens and is good-not-great at passing out of low block doubles).

His rebound rate is pretty good for a wing, and he's talented enough to score from the block when posted against a smaller player. This has all been the case since 2012, when Portland first starting using him as a point forward.

Second, you don't have to take my word for it re: his defense:

Read This from last year

Here's similar stuff from Zach Lowe, going all the way back to 2012/13

And here are his advanced stats from NBA.com and Basketball-Reference.com.

As for naming five SFs who are better defensively...
1. Kawhi
2. LeBron
3. Butler
4. Paul George
5. KD
6. Giannis
7. MKG
8. Crowder
9. Mbah a Moute
10. Roberson
11. Ariza

Gordon swaps between PF & SF, so I left him off the list just because. Harrison Barnes has been better the last four years, but definitely hasn't been better this year, so I didn't list him. I personally think Bazemore is better defensively than Batum, but he also has a more obvious weakness (he's useless against big wings), so I didn't list him. Sefolosha would be top 5 on the above list but he comes off the bench and plays limited minutes, so I didn't list him. Rudy and Gordon Hayward belong in the convo as well.

So yeah... somwhere between like 12th & 17th in the league. I think he's a smidge above average.

superjohn said:
Sessions stinks and they couldn't even get a bag of chips in return for Hawes. The Hornets have some good pieces but those certainly aren't two of them.
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Sessions is useful when he's on the court at the same time as Batum. Not saying they wouldn't upgrade him if they could (obviously they would), but having a shoot-first PG on the floor is easier if he's paired with a wing who can initiate the offense.
 
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Matrim55 said:
I'm not being patronizing -- I legitimately thought you were mixing up Batum & MKG, and after that quote I'm sure of it, since Batum did not play last night and MKG guarded Carmelo every second he was on the floor.
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No, not patronizing at all...


Matrim55 said:
Two other things:

First, Batum's all-around game has been a visible on the court from day one and in the stats for five years now -- he's en route to becoming the only forward in the league besides LeBron to average 6 apg or better for each of the last five years.

He's talented enough to score from the block when posted against a smaller player.
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You were able to see that Batum was a good passer years before his coaches? Pretty rich coming from a guy who links to BBRef and NBA stats pages and then proceeds to completely botch how many assists he's been averaging.

He also doesn't have much of a low post game.

Matrim55 said:
Second, you don't have to take my word for it re: his defense:

Read This from last year

Here's similar stuff from Zach Lowe, going all the way back to 2012/13

And here are his advanced stats from NBA.com and Basketball-Reference.com.
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Did you actually read the entire article in your first link? Were you assuming I wouldn't? The writer both explains any critiques by acknowledging the grind of an NBA regular season, and then goes on to praise Batum for his defensive work in the playoffs. The Zach Lowe article is fairly vague and doesn't provide any hard statistics, and both your advanced stats links didn't take me to the correct pages. If this is all that you can find to make your case, then it's probably not a case worth trying to make.

Matrim55 said:
As for naming five SFs who are better defensively...
1. Kawhi
2. LeBron
3. Butler
4. Paul George
5. KD
6. Giannis
7. MKG
8. Crowder
9. Mbah a Moute
10. Roberson
11. Ariza

So yeah... somwhere between like 12th & 17th in the league. I think he's a smidge above average.
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1. Sure
2. Maybe if this were 2011
3. Definitely too early to tell
4. Sure
5. No
6. No
7. Sure
8. Sure
9. Really a starter in name only and usually isn't even on the court at the end of games when the team is up
10. See 3
11. No

So yeah... About 5th. I think he's high end.
 
NielsisGood said:
No, not patronizing at all...




You were able to see that Batum was a good passer years before his coaches? Pretty rich coming from a guy who links to BBRef and NBA stats pages and then proceeds to completely botch how many assists he's been averaging.

He also doesn't have much of a low post game.



Did you actually read the entire article in your first link? Were you assuming I wouldn't? The writer both explains any critiques by acknowledging the grind of an NBA regular season, and then goes on to praise Batum for his defensive work in the playoffs. The Zach Lowe article is fairly vague and doesn't provide any hard statistics, and both your advanced stats links didn't take me to the correct pages. If this is all that you can find to make your case, then it's probably not a case worth trying to make.



1. Sure
2. Maybe if this were 2011
3. Definitely too early to tell
4. Sure
5. No
6. No
7. Sure
8. Sure
9. Really a starter in name only and usually isn't even on the court at the end of games when the team is up
10. See 3
11. No

So yeah... About 5th. I think he's high end.
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All those guys are better defensively than Batum.
 
Someone trying to explain Ramon Sessions usefulness and someone saying Batum is a better defender than LeBron. This board is always a good laugh when it comes to the NBA.
 
Batum is a well above average defender league wide, but he is not a top 5 defender at the SF position. That position has the best athletes and defenders in the entire league.
 
It's really hard to critique a players D, even if you watch a ton of hoops. I would say that all of us are guessing or depending on the opinions of others who are guessing. Even advanced stats lie a lot in regards to defensive impact. It's only easy to tell who is really bad, or incredibly good, like Kawhi or an engaged LeBron.

Batum had a better reputation as a defender earlier in his career but he is still regarded as pretty good. I doubt any of us are breaking down his tape.

He has always had a rep as a playmaker, even in Portland, where he didn't have many opportunities. I don't think many were surprised by his different role when he began with Charlotte because he always flashed this ability.
 
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walker11 said:
It's really hard to critique a players D, even if you watch a ton of hoops. I would say that all of us are guessing or depending on the opinions of others who are guessing. Even advanced stats lie a lot in regards to defensive impact. It's only easy to tell who is really bad, or incredibly good, like Kawhi or an engaged LeBron.

Batum had a better reputation as a defender earlier in his career but he is still regarded as pretty good. I doubt any of us are breaking down his tape.

He has always had a rep as a playmaker, even in Portland, where he didn't have many opportunities. I don't think many were surprised by his different role when he began with Charlotte because he always flashed this ability.
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Ok, but it doesn't take much "guessing" to know Batum isn't a top 5 defensive player at his position professor.
 
BUConn10 said:
Ok, but it doesn't take much "guessing" to know Batum isn't a top 5 defensive player at his position professor.
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I am talking about list making.

I don't think Batum is top 5 and I imagine most don't but I'm not going to pretend I watch more than 7 or 8 full Hornets games, and they are one of Mt favorite teams.
 
NielsisGood said:
No need to be patronizing. Batum has long been considered a high end defensive player, his passing ability has only been more recently recognized and utilized. He also held Melo to 7-25 last night, and even though Kawhi and Melo had good games on him earlier in the week, Leonard is arguably the only nightmare defender at SF anyways, and 2 elite offensive players having good games over the span of a week doesn't take away from the fact that Batum is probably a top 5 defender at his position (among starters). I'd love to discuss if you could propose 5 better.
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no he didn't, he doesn't guard the opposing teams best wing. its either marvin or mkg this season. MKG was the guy who forced melo into a rough night, Batum can't be considered a 'high end defensive player' when he is frequently hidden on low usage players. batum is actually a sg too fyi.

Matrim55 said:
He's been hurt. This is literally his first game all year at 100% health.

.
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I know that, look at my post history. Point is I would like to see him share the court with walker more than he did last season. We will probably see him start a lot with marvin out and batum day to day. hopefully he takes advantage.
 
CardiacAndre7 said:
All those guys are better defensively than Batum.
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Bless your heart.

superjohn said:
Someone trying to explain Ramon Sessions usefulness and someone saying Batum is a better defender than LeBron. This board is always a good laugh when it comes to the NBA.
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Have you watched LeBron play defense the last 2-3 years?

BUConn10 said:
Batum is a well above average defender league wide, but he is not a top 5 defender at the SF position. That position has the best athletes and defenders in the entire league.
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Among starters he is.
 
@NielsisGood batum took a step back defensively since joining the hornets, he is more a playmaking guard than he is a two way sf. there are a number of metrics that support this claim, defensive rpm + defensive win shares specifically. I mean, its quite obvious you aren't watching games. few posts above you claimed batum held melo in check and batum wasn't even playing.
 
NielsisGood said:
Bless your heart.



Have you watched LeBron play defense the last 2-3 years?



Among starters he is.
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I've watched about 10 Hornets games this season and a lot more last, what are you basing your opinion off of?
 
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moving away from alum, this guy is ridiculous. anyone interested in having a statsgasm go look up his per 100 possession numbers, he is on par with Boogie and Anthony davis, and a cut above guys like towns and KP. Wonder how he will look with ben simmons in a month or so.
 
NielsisGood said:
Bless your heart.



Have you watched LeBron play defense the last 2-3 years?



Among starters he is.
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Among starters he is? What did you think I was comparing Batum's defensive abilities to the best bench SFs in the league? And here's 5 "starters" at that spot I'd take defending Kobe against a shot for the win:

1. Leonard
2. James
3. Butler
4. George
5. Ariza or Giannis but that's purely off of his inhuman length

Also you've made multiple comments about it "not being 2011" regarding Lebron's defensive ability. Uhhhh, did you watch the guy in the finals just a few months ago? Just because he's aged doesn't mean he isn't still the premier defender in the league. He can legit play all 5 positions, no way in hell Batum is guarding 4s and 5s in crunch time, or even coming close to that chanpionship winning block James had in game 7, even for an old man. He's just built on a whole other level than Batum, and he's one of the smartest players to ever lace them up.
 
James said:


moving away from alum, this guy is ridiculous. anyone interested in having a statsgasm go look up his per 100 possession numbers, he is on par with Boogie and Anthony davis, and a cut above guys like towns and KP. Wonder how he will look with ben simmons in a month or so.
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He's also already got a huge ego it seems
 
Making noise and being outspoken are ways young guys build their brand in the league nowadays, I wouldn't take much from it until he starts approaching Draymond Green levels of obnoxiousness.
 
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