More fuel to the fire (re: Griner)

[Kait14]

Suggesting BG keep her orientation on the down-low is hardly comparable to the aggresively anti-gay atmosphere fostered by Rene Portland. Such a suggestion of ANY comparable linkage is over the iop vis Kim Mulkey.

It wasn't a suggestion. She didn't have a choice, they made her keep it a "secret"

 

[Kait14]

Keeping sexuality on the down low? Be serious. Business professionalism often requires suitable attire and sticking to the business at hand. No race, religion, or politics or office affairs or using the internet for . Teachers routinely get fired for working as bikini models etc.

You're joking, right?

 

[bellairehusky]

RIGHT - there is no race or religion or politics or office affairs in professional business venues.

And name me the last man who was fired for working in a speedo?

Lordy, you DO live on the dark side of the moon.

I worked for a company that fired a worker for constanty wearing sandals to work. He was warned not to do it.

 

[Icebear]

Suggesting BG keep her orientation on the down-low is hardly comparable to the aggresively anti-gay atmosphere fostered by Rene Portland. Such a suggestion of ANY comparable linkage is over the iop vis Kim Mulkey.

Jim, you are miss using what I was saying. My point was that building a strong community within the team becomes the insulation against the external anti-gay theology of the university policies.

 

[LesMis89]

Kate Fagan did an absolutely amazing job with this piece. I'm still baffled, as a gay woman, as to why she wouldn't transfer. If you're comfortable with who you are and you know who you are, why even endure all that BS when superior schools who recruited you don't care if you're gay?

The connection that I made from reading the article:
1. Article states that BG chose Baylor because it was about three hours from Houston (home)
2. Article says that BG's mom just wanted her daughter to be happy (re: coming out)
3. Article says that while BG was in college, her mom developed lupus which left her having to use a wheelchair

My interpretation - BG may not have wanted to go further away from her mom which transferring to an elite WBB program elsewhere would have meant.

FWIW.

 

[DobbsRover2]

Keeping sexuality on the down low? Be serious. Business professionalism often requires suitable attire and sticking to the business at hand. No race, religion, or politics or office affairs or using the internet for . Teachers routinely get fired for working as bikini models etc.

You use such a wonderful analogy in this case. As anyone learning the rules of business professionalism at an institution of learning at Baylor, they know that their school finally took care of the above-mentioned race duties following the Civil Rights Act, religion is very much a conversation piece in Baylor's rules and public pronouncements, and their president is and has been highly involved in politics in playing a leading role in conservative activism. But clearly no one at Baylor has any interest viewing on the web (smirk and snicker) and I can find no references the school firing any of its teachers for posing for Victoria's Secret (Ken Starr in a speedo would probably excite a huge amount of the older members of the right wing of both sexes though).

So I don't know, is Baylor worth the tuition? If I want my kid to be a successful and well-behaved business professional, this may not be the place. Hell, at Baylor they supposedly can't even learn that time-honored career booster of sleeping your way to the top.

 

[ThisJustIn]

Dragging out my favorite comment from a Baylor fan last year at the Final Four. The Baylor dancers are shimmying and shaking their thang on the floor, and she says, "I never thought I'd see Baylor girls dance like THAT."

 

[JimGunther]

I think you've got a good point here.

Kim, Brit, and Baylor had an "arrangement". For the time, everybody won.

As for "going public" - kind of the same "arrangement" Tiger had with the press.

Don't ask - Don't tell. Keep making baskets, birdies or whatever you're expected to do well.

Though I get the feeling that both Mulkey and Griner are pieces of work, I think this is mountian/molehill territory. My impression is that Mulkey's advice was wasn't so much asking Griner to live a lie as it was asking her to analyze the risk and return. Considering how well Griner's Baylor career turned out ( improvement and growth as a player, an NC, multiple FF's, #1 draft pick, nationwide recognition) I would say Mulkey was on the right track. Griner didn't need more on her plate in school. Now was the right time to come out publicly, when she has the time and freedom to deal with it. If she was that adament about coming out before, she could have just done so. Baylor wouldn't have done anything. It would have been another PR disaster for them.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Daniel Webster comes to mind.

 

[HuskyNan]

Kate Fagan did an absolutely amazing job with this piece. I'm still baffled, as a gay woman, as to why she wouldn't transfer. If you're comfortable with who you are and you know who you are, why even endure all that BS when superior schools who recruited you don't care if you're gay?

Kait, did you just come out to the Boneyard? Good grief, kiddo, we've known you since you were about 12 - our little girl is all grown up!

 

[HuskyNan]

This thread has been interesting as the lack of specifics has become a canvas for posters to paint their own version of what happened. As the inevitable calling out of other posters has begun, it might be a good time to lock it.

I'd rather just steer the conversation back to Civilityland. It's an interesting topic that had a direct connection to women's basketball.

 

[HuskyNan]

It always cracks me up when I see things like this. "You don't see heterosexual players talking about their sexuality." I was watching the softball super regionals on ESPN last weekend, and they would NOT stop showing a Nebraska player's fiance. That right there, is how female athletes' heterosexuality is dealt with. When a female athlete is walking down the street holding her boyfriend's/husband's hand, that is displaying their sexuality. So get out of here with that BS that it's nobody's business. It's paraded every day regardless of whether you realize it or not. And if you read the article, you'd see that it wasn't a suggestion. She wasn't allowed to at all. Baylor made her delete a tweet to an ex-girlfriend.

Did you watch the BCS championship game, Notre Dame vs Alabama? If not, you missed this...

 

[DobbsRover2]

So leaving aside all that obsession with sin and getting back to the thread's real subject, does anyone take a more positive view on a moral level of Griner's actions in staying in the predicament at Baylor because maybe halfway through her time there she had decided to be a pioneering figure for a cause she believed in? And the situation would have a similarity to Jackie Robinson's promise to Branch Rickey not to lash out at racist hecklers during his first year in the MLB, but then the gloves were off for him to strike back afterward. In this case BG made a commitment to Mulkey to not twit Baylor's behavior credo while in school, but afterwards, bombs away on the Starr-making machinery.

 

[Icebear]

Kait, did you just come out to the Boneyard? Good grief, kiddo, we've known you since you were about 12 - our little girl is all grown up!

She did it back during the season in a thread.

 

[Kait14]

Kait, did you just come out to the Boneyard? Good grief, kiddo, we've known you since you were about 12 - our little girl is all grown up!

Hahah! I could have sworn I have mentioned it before!! And all grown up, ugh, don't remind me lol. I just turned 25 and am wondering where the heck my life has gone hahah

 

[Kait14]

Did you watch the BCS championship game, Notre Dame vs Alabama? If not, you missed this...

Oh absolutely.. I was just so digusted.. SO disgusted. I remember one of the analysts calling the little spat between AJ McCarron and Barrot Jones during the game a "lovers quarrel" and good lord the silence from the rest of the announcers, you could cut the tension with a knife. I don't really watch the WNBA, but I have a pretty good idea that they would never go on and on and on and on about Seimone Augustus' fiance

 

[Kait14]

I've talked my fair share of crap about BG (though NOTHING having to do with her sexuality or gender identity because I would never) due to the fact that she was on a team beating us, but I can't even begin to describe how proud I am of her. That we have an advocate out there like her. The way she just brushes off the disgusting things said to her and is just, "This is me, if you don't like it I don't care." The WNBA has shunned the LGBT community since it's inception, but they won't be able to anymore because of Brittney.

 

[bertieboy]

Years ago I was auditing a company in Virginia and the QA manager of this firm and I got to talking about WCBB. She had played division 1 ball and she remarked to me that many of the women playing this sport are gay. For me, it's no big deal. I love them all.

 

[HuskyNan]

I can't even begin to describe how proud I am of her. That we have an advocate out there like her. The way she just brushes off the disgusting things said to her and is just, "This is me, if you don't like it I don't care." The WNBA has shunned the LGBT community since it's inception, but they won't be able to anymore because of Brittney.

I have to disagree with you there, Kait. The WNBA has strongly marketed gays for years.

From this article from 2001:

Though each WNBA team controls its own marketing strategy, the suggestion to target the lesbian demographic is one that came from the top of the league's hierarchy. Entering this, its fifth season, the league has put an added emphasis on ticket sales, targeting a host of demographics it previously under marketed. Included in that overlooked group are lesbians.

 

[sarals24]

As someone who grew up about an hour from Waco, I refuse to believe that Griner and family didn't know Baylor's policies. Heck, you couldn't even DANCE at that school until the late 90s. (Much less dance in skimpy clothes at halfcourt!) This leads me to believe that Mulkey assured her it wouldn't be an issue. Which it obviously was. There were clearly chemistry problems at Baylor this year, and I don't doubt they will have issues recruiting gay players in the future.

 

[Kait14]

I have to disagree with you there, Kait. The WNBA has strongly marketed gays for years.

From this article from 2001:

Though each WNBA team controls its own marketing strategy, the suggestion to target the lesbian demographic is one that came from the top of the league's hierarchy. Entering this, its fifth season, the league has put an added emphasis on ticket sales, targeting a host of demographics it previously under marketed. Included in that overlooked group are lesbians.

The owners themselves, yes. Not all teams though. I know Seattle is obviously a big one since some of the owners are lesbians, but the gripe I hear all the time from the lesbian community is that the WNBA runs from their core audience, even still. I think some teams market to them sure, but to think the Tulsa Shock is strongly going after the LGBT community, I mean...

 

[DobbsRover2]

The owners themselves, yes. Not all teams though. I know Seattle is obviously a big one since some of the owners are lesbians, but the gripe I hear all the time from the lesbian community is that the WNBA runs from their core audience, even still. I think some teams market to them sure, but to think the Tulsa Shock is strongly going after the LGBT community, I mean...

As Augustus said, you don't see broad acceptance of any lesbian public displays in the South (or in the Plains areas like Tulsa), and probably in the rural areas of those regions it will be a long long time until any such acts become even occasional. But Griner does put another face on the whole potential in at least urban areas, and it's a great strong distinctive "whatever hang-ups you have about me is your problem" face that projects a new self-assurance that will be highly regarded by a younger and more open-minded audience and market and hopefully for the WNBA. Sure, the nasty remarks will keep coming from the bigots and the haters and those who monger in their perceptions of sinful behavior, but clearly Griner is a fighter (lord knows she can fight) who can shrug it all off now with a beautiful grace and dignity that is very much lacking in those who attack her for who she is.

 

[jplotinus]

The tradition Catholic/Christian view is love the sinner, hate the sin. Accepting Griner and allowing her to proselytize her sexuality are two different things. Its difficult for some to understand this distinction in the US where sin no longer exists. Many clerics in a fit of desperation condone homosexuality, abortion, promiscuity, multiple remarriages, etc.

Suggesting Griner was too dumb to look at Baylor's policy online is problematic. Every homosexual or LGBT person I've met can read.

Americans don't understand the "pick up the cross and bear it" of traditional Christianity. Rather than confess and make atonement Griner decided to proselytize.

Let Mulkey speak now that the article is out. I think Mulkey refused to pay for airfare and a room and this is making Dad mad.

The "etc" is what concerns me. If I were inclined to point fingers and say "sinner", my list would likely start with endless pretextual wars, militarism to a faretheewell, living by the sword, greed and grotesque disparity and then "etc."

As for Baylor, it would appear their greatest wbb achievement--having BG for 4 years--may become their greatest liability. Things are not going very well for them. I would imagine that on campus and in the homes of current students, attitudes towards Baylor athletics are running the gamut from support to disdain; and, more the latter rather than the former.

 

[CL82]

It always cracks me up when I see things like this. "You don't see heterosexual players talking about their sexuality." I was watching the softball super regionals on ESPN last weekend, and they would NOT stop showing a Nebraska player's fiance. That right there, is how female athletes' heterosexuality is dealt with. When a female athlete is walking down the street holding her boyfriend's/husband's hand, that is displaying their sexuality. So get out of here with that BS that it's nobody's business. It's paraded every day regardless of whether you realize it or not. And if you read the article, you'd see that it wasn't a suggestion. She wasn't allowed to at all. Baylor made her delete a tweet to an ex-girlfriend.

You realize, that you are refuting 'quotes' that you've made up, right?

 

[Kait14]

I would fully expect her to say the same if a heterosexual player was talking about her sexuality.

This better? No, she wouldn't tell a heterosexual player to not talk about her sexuality.

 

[SFJeff]

I have to disagree with you there, Kait. The WNBA has strongly marketed gays for years.

From this article from 2001:

Though each WNBA team controls its own marketing strategy, the suggestion to target the lesbian demographic is one that came from the top of the league's hierarchy. Entering this, its fifth season, the league has put an added emphasis on ticket sales, targeting a host of demographics it previously under marketed. Included in that overlooked group are lesbians.

And you have this, from Fagan's article:

"Over the past 16 years, the WNBA has tried, ever so gently, to create space for itself in the saturated sports world. Marketing campaigns have cherry-picked players who best seem to represent traditional feminine ideals, but in trying to court mainstream fans, the league has struggled to become culturally relevant in its own niche."

It's a fast changing world though, and Phoenix seems to (rightly) embrace marketing Griner as is. Bravo.

 

[UcMiami]

Hahah! I could have sworn I have mentioned it before!! And all grown up, ugh, don't remind me lol. I just turned 25 and am wondering where the heck my life has gone hahah

I just don't understand this!!! Why do your have to parade you 'sex life' on the forum - just post your posts! Everything else is irrelevant! (Sorry, couldn't resist give the nature of some of the posts!) (This was definitely said in jest/sarcastically.)

 

[Icebear]

The tradition Catholic/Christian view is love the sinner, hate the sin. Accepting Griner and allowing her to proselytize her sexuality are two different things. Its difficult for some to understand this distinction in the US where sin no longer exists. Many clerics in a fit of desperation condone homosexuality, abortion, promiscuity, multiple remarriages, etc.

Suggesting Griner was too dumb to look at Baylor's policy online is problematic. Every homosexual or LGBT person I've met can read.

Americans don't understand the "pick up the cross and bear it" of traditional Christianity. Rather than confess and make atonement Griner decided to proselytize.

Let Mulkey speak now that the article is out. I think Mulkey refused to pay for airfare and a room and this is making Dad mad.

There is no such desperation among the clergy. They and lay scholars have by studying scripture recognized that the church has not treated the issue of homosexuality in a manner consistent with the OT (where women are not included in the prohibitions) nor the teachings of Jesus which say nothing concerning homosexuality, and that the NT letters have distinctive cultural practices of the Roman era that are not part of the present understanding of homosexuality nor modern cultural practices.

In many ways the church has a history of denying its own institutionalized sin regarding issues of sexuality. Forced celibacy has forced demands upon the clergy that were non scriptural and that the Pauline and other letters do not demand of either disciples or clergy. The resulting history of the church's sexual corruptions and sin led Luther to reintroduce married clergy into the service of the church to restore a sense of natural order consistent with biblical teaching.

The number of teachings in the "traditions" of the church that are contrary to the teachings of the Bible have been numerous across generations and are ever being reformed and corrected. That reality led to Luther's statement, "Unless I am convicted by scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen." Also, as regards issues of sexuality and "traditional' Christianity did not allow women as pastors throughout the church but starting in the 1960s faithfulness to the Bible led a number of Christian denominations worldwide to lift the ban and start ordaining women into offices of pastors and, yes, even bishops. So tradition is not always a good guide.

I should add it is accepted as long standing legend that Luther said the words "Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me, Amen!"

Much of Christendom rejects the idea that sinners can in any way make atonement for their sins because atonement has been made by Christ, once for all. This was reflected in the pope's message last week. The redeemed do good, not we are redeemed because we do good which is works righteousness.

Your use of "take up you cross are bear it" is theologically weak biblically although typical of much of "traditional" Christianity. Bearing the cross is the burden of Christian calling and following Christ, "Take up your cross and follow me," not picking up, confessing sins and bucking up and tough.

If you want to discuss any of this I suggest we take it off board so as not to burden others.

 

[meyers7]

Baylor should also do a more careful reading of the Old Testament to see what else they're letting slide.

Baptists are more New Testament driven.

 

[CL82]

This better? No, she wouldn't tell a heterosexual player to not talk about her sexuality.

Pretty sure she would. I'm pretty sure Geno would as well.