Maryland’s $157 million counterclaim: ACC recruited B1G schools

[SubbaBub]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

This is rear view BS. PSU is or isn't staying in the B1G because RU and MD are coming to Happy Valley every few years.

It has been and will continue to be about revenue and how to make sure you have more than the other conferences to protect your league.

Each conference answered that question differently. ACC needed FB teams, the B12 needed warm bodies to get back to 10 teams, the B1G needed TV markets and the SEC needed entry into TX.

In each case, UConn was not the best answer to the specific question being asked. ACC's poor judgement is included.

 

[SAMCRO]

One might, while railing, wonder why the Big Ten took Maryland and Rutgers over UConn. Better football? basketball? branding? markets? There is no single thing that I could put my finger on as an uninformed fan.

1. Markets (NYC and Balt/DC)
2. they had AAU status at time of invite (as did Nebraska)
neither was a national brand in any major sport (unlike the Nebraska move), this was primarily driven by # of cable subscribers. Not necessarily eyeballs tuning in to watch, but homes with cable boxes/dish's

 

[AZHuskiePop]

Perhaps you're right, stimp, and I sure as hell hope you are.

But here is my worry....

Expansion had a purpose - it was a consolidation of power and money.

The ACC set out to destroy the Big East as a competitor and they did. The Big Ten might have been setting out to destroy the ACC and failed....but in any event, the networks have put away the checkbooks and the P5 conferences have finished erecting their security walls.

The stopping point might be artificial, but it's still real. Those inside on the walls are dealing with $20-30M a year more in television revenue than those outside the walls. They've consolidated bowls and they will move towards nine game schedules. And now they are proposing changing rules to exploit their advantages in exposure and revenue - the idea is to suffocate everything outside the P5.

Schools that were able to rise under the old rules will now find themselves running out of oxygen - and that's the point of all this. Not sure there will be anything left to expand with in ten years.

I completely understand your position. I certainly hope you are wrong.
But it wouldn't be the first time greed has led to a bad end.
The long term implications of that scenario will lead to the ultimate destruction of football.
Expansion occurs as a result of inclusion not exclusion. Kids will sacrifice their bodies to improve their economic future. They have for years even before the NFL.
The point was to use football to better yourself.
The fertile grounds of football talent ( high school football will dry up with limited opportunity for players to advance). If 60 colleges are playing a sport is that really a viable sport.Football is already under scrutiny at that level. That's 600 scholarship opportunities yearly. That's a sport that just marginalized itself.
The P5 run the risk of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Some other sport will probably fill the vacuum. or if the NFL wants to remain viable they create their own alternative to the current model.

 

[pj]

I think that Fishy may be right....

There has been, of late, an FBS proliferation. Teams like UAB, Middle Tennessee, FIU, North Texas, Texas San Antonio, Texas State, South Alabama, Georgia State and others...all moved to FBS.

There came to be a fiction...that all teams in FBS all really played for the same prize and were really in the same league.

It became a league that ranged from the Alabama's and Ohio State's of the football world to the Georgia State's and Middle Tennessee's.

It became an unwieldy fiction. Matches between the Alabama's and Ohio State's vs Texas State or Middle Tennessee drew little public interest, and less media dollars. And, while there could be a rare good game out of these matches, the non BCS teams, over the BCS era, lost 81% of their games with BCS teams.

There is now a movement to draw back in as the P5 and maybe break away... as Fishy has pointed out, to maximize resources. The poker players at the big table will have most of the chips and there will be fewer paths to move up to the Big Table.

If this is the dynamic, then UConn will be fine. It has a large audience and market, dominating the state of Connecticut and gathering significant interest from New York and the rest of New England. Thanks to Connecticut fan support, it will have resources to compete -- not necessarily equal resources to the P5 schools, but competitive resources. And if UConn can capture a larger share of the Connecticut-New England-New York fan interest, then that financial gap will close.

Acquiring UConn media rights added about $24 million annually to SNY's revenue. UConn if it marketed its own rights intelligently could get $10 mn per year for them, even in the AAC.

But assigning all the rights to the AAC and having them market the league's rights ends up averaging revenue with East Carolina, Tulsa, etc, and reducing media income to a paltry sum. UConn is going to have to start thinking of itself as the equivalent of an independent, like BYU or Notre Dame, and developing those marketing skills. Even though we will be in the AAC, which is actually not a bad conference in terms of football or men's basketball level of competition, we have to recover our media rights from the league and learn how to market them.

The AAC is a decent football and basketball league that UConn has the potential to dominate; and with financial independence, UConn can be financially competitive with P5 conferences. That is what it has to aim for. If the Huskies succeed at that, sooner or later a P5 conference will want to bring UConn in. Probably sooner, as there will be pressure to sabotage the AAC in the same way the Big East was sabotaged, and it will be easy to make the case that a UConn which can generate $10 mn+ in media rights in the AAC could generate $25-30 mn for the ACC or B1G.

 

[btstimpy]

AAU

The Big Ten schools were already in the AAU with Maryland and Rutgers. They could collaberate as much as they want through the AAU in Research. Why subject all of their sports fans to boring football games and basketball games in the case of Rutgers over AAU? In the case of Maryland, the Big Ten threw a lot of money at them and sold them on the overall scheme and the projection of the money it would generate. Maryland is in financial trouble with its athletics department, and the decision maker has no Maryland culture or history to draw upon or even athletics acumen, and he ignored everyone else's around him. In fact one of his quotes is "I don't know much about athletics. I know they play games, but that's about it" - Dr. Wallace Loh, Maryland President.

AAU was an excuse. It was not the reason. The Big Ten Network thinks it can fleece the Cable Subscribers in New Jersey and Maryland to create revenue. The Big Ten did not think that the odds of this working were good enough to make that move at the time they added Nebraska. But when Notre Dame joined the ACC, the Big Ten got nervous and made this move over fear of losing Penn State. The odds of this working are no better now than when the Big Ten added Nebraska, but they have now rolled the dice on it. They may hope that the odds might be better because Fox bought YES. We'll see. But we are still talking about putting Rutgers basketball and football teams on television hoping millions will watch or at least hundreds of thousands. The Maryland case will be interesting to watch play out as well. They drive more interest in basketball, but it will be interesting to watch if they continue to in the Big Ten.

 

[btstimpy]

I think that Fishy may be right....

Schools could move up in football and did...there was a stair step...move from non FBS into CUSA, MWC, etc...step up into the Big East.

Then, get snatched out of the Big East by the ACC (who had to be perceived as the next rung on the ladder or teams wouldn't be snatched).

There has been, of late, an FBS proliferation. Teams like UAB, Middle Tennessee, FIU, North Texas, Texas San Antonio, Texas State, South Alabama, Georgia State and others...all moved to FBS.

There came to be a fiction...that all teams in FBS all really played for the same prize and were really in the same league.

It became a league that ranged from the Alabama's and Ohio State's of the football world to the Georgia State's and Middle Tennessee's.

It became an unwieldy fiction. Matches between the Alabama's and Ohio State's vs Texas State or Middle Tennessee drew little public interest, and less media dollars. And, while there could be a rare good game out of these matches, the non BCS teams, over the BCS era, lost 81% of their games with BCS teams.

There is now a movement to draw back in as the P5 and maybe break away... as Fishy has pointed out, to maximize resources. The poker players at the big table will have most of the chips and there will be fewer paths to move up to the Big Table.

While I think that Fishy is right in the short term, in the very long run, there will be some movement up.

As teams and demographics change slowly over time, there will be emerging powerhouses and submerging former P5 teams. And there will be demand for the play of the emergents.

Short Term the P5 want to consolidate and leverage their position to make it difficult for others to catch up or break through. It will work short term.

But if the public appetite continues to grow for college football, in the long term there will be more supply to fill the demand. I even watched MACtion on Tuesday and Wednesday nights last November. I'd have never thought to watch MAC conference games 10 years ago. With Fox adding 2 sports networks, CBS adding one, and NBC adding one, these 4 other networks are going to want football games to show all week. Schools, some I've never heard of, are rushing into the Sunbelt and C-USA. The WAC might even return.

I just see the sport growing. I don't see it consolidating as much as the P5 want it to. That's going to continue to create opportunity for schools especially ones like UConn who does well across the entire Athletic Department portfolio beyond football. The legal battles around concussions and safety might be an obstacle, but there may be enough money to blow right by that obstacle too.

 

[SubbaBub]

The AAU is a club, not a SAT score. We have better credentials than a good chunk of AAU members. Like in athletics, we only require an invitation.

 

[bobbyinaz]

If this is the dynamic, then UConn will be fine. It has a large audience and market, dominating the state of Connecticut and gathering significant interest from New York and the rest of New England. Thanks to Connecticut fan support, it will have resources to compete -- not necessarily equal resources to the P5 schools, but competitive resources. And if UConn can capture a larger share of the Connecticut-New England-New York fan interest, then that financial gap will close.

Acquiring UConn media rights added about $24 million annually to SNY's revenue. UConn if it marketed its own rights intelligently could get $10 mn per year for them, even in the AAC.

But assigning all the rights to the AAC and having them market the league's rights ends up averaging revenue with East Carolina, Tulsa, etc, and reducing media income to a paltry sum. UConn is going to have to start thinking of itself as the equivalent of an independent, like BYU or Notre Dame, and developing those marketing skills. Even though we will be in the AAC, which is actually not a bad conference in terms of football or men's basketball level of competition, we have to recover our media rights from the league and learn how to market them.

The AAC is a decent football and basketball league that UConn has the potential to dominate; and with financial independence, UConn can be financially competitive with P5 conferences. That is what it has to aim for. If the Huskies succeed at that, sooner or later a P5 conference will want to bring UConn in. Probably sooner, as there will be pressure to sabotage the AAC in the same way the Big East was sabotaged, and it will be easy to make the case that a UConn which can generate $10 mn+ in media rights in the AAC could generate $25-30 mn for the ACC or B1G.

Can we please stop with the fantasy that the AAC, or any other conference, is going to let UConn compete as a member but let it sell its' media rights on an independent basis. IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

 

[Husky68]

Can we please stop with the fantasy that the AAC, or any other conference, is going to let UConn compete as a member but let it sell its' media rights on an independent basis. IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

Yeah, even Boise State knows that!

 

[btstimpy]

Several Big Ten AD's have been on the record about the Maryland/Rutgers move as a Penn State "stabilizer".

The latest was Ohio State's AD...

Q: When you look at Rutgers and Maryland, they haven’t set the world afire and Rutgers has had its issues with coaches and its AD. Do you still feel those are good additions?

A: I do. We could have gone a number of ways. I think it was great for the league and really good for Penn State. People haven’t focused on that enough. Penn State was sitting out there like an appendage. Anybody could have plucked them. The ACC could have plucked them.

The rest of that answer was more interesting to me. Barry Alvarez already explained the fear of losing Penn State last year.

A: "The other one was the lock up a little bit of the East Coast with television. We’re doing that. We’re going to Navy next year. We’re playing in the Ravens stadium.
Yes, we’re still happy with (having added them). Do we need to help Maryland and Rutgers get better? No doubt. In football, obviously. Their Olympic sports are phenomenal. We have to help them with football and basketball."

This is one hell of a project to ask the other members of the Big Ten to take on. How does he propose to accomplish this? Perfect opportunity for the reporter to ask a follow up. Obviously Gene Smith knows that the league has added bottom feeders. Anyway, these are the interesting comments.

For UConn fans, where basketball "Help" isn't required, why take Rutgers over UConn again?

 

[billybud]

This is from an FSU "insider" who has shown that he has close ties to the program/ACC..,He has had some good info in the past

Take this for whatever you think that it is worth....I don't know how a GOR would play into this...

"... from recent meetings on Tobacco Road.

ACC Stuff
Expect ND full time by 2017, with the NBC contract with ND still in place. They would not be fully supplemented by the ACC media deal, till the NBC deal is done. For instance, if they get the estimated ~12M from NBC, and ABC is paying ~24M per school, ND would only get ~12M of that, or the difference.


ND wants a game in Florida every year, which means FSU and Miami would be two nearly certain conference games. It's also possible that an ACC team might play them on a neutral field in Florida. This is one of the reasons for the proposed reshuffling of the conference, and who plays in the ACCCG.


Big question is who the 16th ACC team will be. No one seems to lead this race.


ACC Bowl payouts are changing as well, but nothing is finalized yet.

FSU obviously has the most juice in the conference right now.

National Stuff


The B1G, PAC-12, SEC, ACC, Big 12 Conferences are maneuvering for the Super 5 for the playoffs, and if you're not in one of those, you're on the outside looking in.


There will be a pot of cash that the top five will draw from, which will bring the payouts to within 15% or so of each other."

 

[The Viking]

we are not getting into the ACC. The fact there is no clear leader for the 16th spot tells us all we need to know (if this guy is to be believed)

The question is who outside of UConn gets in. Cincinnati?

 

[billybud]

I, for one, have a difficult time believing that ND would join a conference...

Maybe, just maybe...if the P5 can lock out non members from the playoff...they might though.

 

[ConnHuskBask]

I, for one, have a difficult time believing that ND would join a conference...

Maybe, just maybe...if the P5 can lock out non members from the playoff...they might though.

I tend to think that's the only way that ND
joins a conference.

The question then becomes why haven't the P5 exerted their influence over ND? I understand an individual conference bending over for them as it benefits the league, but the 4 other leagues? No idea.

Assumming this is true ( obviously who knows) and their is an open spot at 16, I think it comes down to UConn, Cincinnati, UCF (though I think FSU/Miami would potentially veto that).

Essentially whoever emerges as the best AAC Football program over the next few years has an advantage, basketball, academics and markets be damned.

 

[billybud]

There will be only four open playoff spots for five P5 Champions... one, at the least, will not play.

I wonder how the the P5 conferences will feel if an independent takes another of the playoff slots .

Without a CCG,and playing one less game, Notre Dame might need an undefeated season to get a slot.

 

[itgoeslike]

Any ACC team will need an undefeated season to get the nod in a four team playoff.

 

[B1GALUM]

Any ACC team will need an undefeated season to get the nod in a four team playoff.

Although it pains me to admit it, I think the B1G (due to lack of strength and bowl success) and Big 12 (due to lack of CCG) will be fighting over the last spot. The win by FSU in the national championship game and their historical success as well as the win by Clemson over OSU in the Orange Bowl places the ACC champion in a much stronger position moving forward in my opinion. I think these wins strengthened the national perception of the ACC. The SEC champion will get a definite nod and the Pac 12 champion likely will as well given the success of Oregon, USC, et. al.

 

[itgoeslike]

Although it pains me to admit it, I think the B1G (due to lack of strength and bowl success) and Big 12 (due to lack of CCG) will be fighting over the last spot. The win by FSU in the national championship game and their historical success as well as the win by Clemson over OSU in the Orange Bowl places the ACC champion in a much stronger position moving forward in my opinion. I think these wins strengthened the national perception of the ACC. The SEC champion will get a definite nod and the Pac 12 champion likely will as well given the success of Oregon, USC, et. al.

Let me rephrase, slightly. . .any ACC team with a conference loss will not make a four team playoff. I think the Big Ten is next in line in the "I need to be undefeated in conference play" category. The ACC has been terrible over the past several seasons and I don't see one season turning it around. If they are terrible next year, people will soon forget this past year. If FSU had dropped a conference game this year, they would not have played in the NC. After years of underperforming, FSU was finally able to convert the level of talent they have had on the field. But, this isn't about FSU, it's about the conference around them, and most people will be able to separate the two.

Addendum to above: At least for the foreseeable future, three of the four top spots likely go to the SEC Champion, PAC12 Champion and SEC Runner Up with the Big 12, Big Ten and ACC Champion fighting for the last spot. In that scenario, the ACC Champion cannot have a conference loss.

 

[billybud]

I don't think that a one loss ACC Champ will be shut out of the play off...

FSU, if champ, will be given the benefit of the doubt...having won six straight bowl games.

 

[itgoeslike]

As an addendum to above. The one thing. We a a

I don't think that a one loss ACC Champ will be shut out of the play off...

FSU, if champ, will be given the benefit of the doubt...having one six straight bowl games.

Ole Miss has won six straight bowl games, so I'm not sure bowl streaks matter that much. FSU has juice right now, let's see what they do with it. But, their future, to some degree, will be predicated on the success of a conference that hasn't been very successful at football. Better up the OOC schedule.

The ACC and Big Ten should benefit from the format of a small selection committee that could be swayed by political pressure. The BCS, as bad as it was (and it was bad), at least included input from a variety of ranking methodologies. Now, we've regressed to the smokey back room, or better yet, championship figure skating, to anoint the CF final four.

 

[B1GALUM]

The ACC and Big Ten should benefit from the format of a small selection committee that could be swayed by political pressure. The BCS, as bad as it was (and it was bad), at least included input from a variety of ranking methodologies. Now, we've regressed to the smokey back room, or better yet, championship figure skating, to anoint the CF final four.

Which may prove to be a catalyst for more conference realignment. There is going to be a pissed off conference champion and conference commissioner year after year due to being left out of the 4 team playoff.
A move to an 8 team playoff is a solution; however, per Bill Hancock Executive Director of the College Football Playoff ...

http://theadvocate.com/sports/generalsports/7999816-123/a-few-minutes-with-bcs
Advocate: You are predicting great success for a four-team playoff. That’s going to create demand for expansion. How written in stone is keeping it at four teams throughout the life of the contract?
Hancock: It is in stone. Twelve years, four teams.

Dan Wolken @DanWolken Follow
Hancock: The presidents have no desire to go to 8, nor do the commissioners. Save this Tweet.

The members of these 5 conferences may reach the conclusion that realigning into 4 conferences so that each conference champion heads to the playoff is worth setting aside differences and other barriers that prevent conference realignment. The downside to this scenario is that it may leave even more teams on the outside looking in due to consolidation; however, there is also the potential for the opposite and that a few additional teams get invited to the party e.g. UConn joins ND to the ACC for a 16 team league, the members of the Big 12 decide to merge into the SEC, B1G, Pac 12 to expand to 14 to 18 team conferences.

This scenario may be complete bulls&!t but conference realignment over the past several years has proven that strange things can happen.

 

[kingdobbs]

They will change their mind very quickly if the 4 team playoff turns out to be a cash pinata.

 

[itgoeslike]

Which may prove to be a catalyst for more conference realignment. There is going to be a pissed off conference champion and conference commissioner year after year due to being left out of the 4 team playoff.
A move to an 8 team playoff is a solution; however, per Bill Hancock Executive Director of the College Football Playoff ...

http://theadvocate.com/sports/generalsports/7999816-123/a-few-minutes-with-bcs
Advocate: You are predicting great success for a four-team playoff. That’s going to create demand for expansion. How written in stone is keeping it at four teams throughout the life of the contract?
Hancock: It is in stone. Twelve years, four teams.

Dan Wolken @DanWolken Follow
Hancock: The presidents have no desire to go to 8, nor do the commissioners. Save this Tweet.

The members of these 5 conferences may reach the conclusion that realigning into 4 conferences so that each conference champion heads to the playoff is worth setting aside differences and other barriers that prevent conference realignment. The downside to this scenario is that it may leave even more teams on the outside looking in due to consolidation; however, there is also the potential for the opposite and that a few additional teams get invited to the party e.g. UConn joins ND to the ACC for a 16 team league, the members of the Big 12 decide to merge into the SEC, B1G, Pac 12 to expand to 14 to 18 team conferences.

This scenario may be complete bulls&!t but conference realignment over the past several years has proven that strange things can happen.

The original plan was to have four 16-team conferences. Getting rid of the BE proved to be fairly easy, but eliminating one more conference (either the Big12 or ACC) has been more problematic. So far, both have resisted efforts to have them implode.

Of course with UCONN on the outside looking in, my preference would be four 20-team conferences. Although, I'm not holding my breath. I don't think the "group" has the fortitude to navigate the politics of piecing it together, in a managed way. Perhaps if push came to shove, or if there was even more money to be made, or if compelled by a landmark ruling.

 

[NickyNewark]

Although it pains me to admit it, I think the B1G (due to lack of strength and bowl success) and Big 12 (due to lack of CCG) will be fighting over the last spot. The win by FSU in the national championship game and their historical success as well as the win by Clemson over OSU in the Orange Bowl places the ACC champion in a much stronger position moving forward in my opinion. I think these wins strengthened the national perception of the ACC. The SEC champion will get a definite nod and the Pac 12 champion likely will as well given the success of Oregon, USC, et. al.

I don't think thats the case but I think FSU is the only exception in a sub BE type conference as the BCS record shows.WF/Duke/Va/NCst/NC/GT even the "U" and VT have hardly wowed anyone recently but if you listen to BY butt kisser stimpy you'd think Va was ND or OSU? Its FSU and maybe little train that could Clemson and the rest/filler all bunched into Tobacco Rd and Va/VT trying to outshine bigbrother the SEC for attention in the SE. The PAC(Pacific coast,Az.Rockies) and B1G have to themselves huge swathes of population/states in the midwest to the NE to support them win or lose IMO.

 

[NickyNewark]

Although it pains me to admit it, I think the B1G (due to lack of strength and bowl success) and Big 12 (due to lack of CCG) will be fighting over the last spot. The win by FSU in the national championship game and their historical success as well as the win by Clemson over OSU in the Orange Bowl places the ACC champion in a much stronger position moving forward in my opinion. I think these wins strengthened the national perception of the ACC. The SEC champion will get a definite nod and the Pac 12 champion likely will as well given the success of Oregon, USC, et. al.

Funny but as an eastcoaster who lived in S.Cal for a few yrs I think the Pac12 is WAY overrated. Maybe due to the fact their's so much to do entertainmentwise and few follow or care. I remember the excitement brought to us eastcoasters in LA when we ate breakfast in the same Hollywood restaurant with the 69/70 OSU Rose Bowl team one Dec morning but the "locals" didnt blink an eye 44 yrs ago when I was 18 and a young serviceman in town.