March Other Big East Games

[Chin Diesel]

Georgetown and DePaul both made a good argument for relegation tonight.

You gotta think Georgetown might get better after the fire Ewing, but DePaul has sucked forever and shows basically no sign of being competitive in a power conference.

Neither team was in the game for even a second tonight.

Also, lol, Providence.

Wow. 40-point loss for Georgetown against Creighton. And I thought DePaul was bad tonight. 19 made 3s for Creighton. Next Thursday should be fun.

I still think neutral court with no coaches Georgetown beats DePaul. But yes, they are both god awful.

 

[Matt1010]

With PC losing there is probably a ~20-25% chance we see them next Thursday at MSG. For that to happen Seton Hall would have to win in Providence on Saturday and Creighton would need to win @Depaul.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

They aren’t home court refs. They’re Big East refs. The days of home court refs are long gone.

Good point. Look at all of PC's great road wins. There is the 5 point win at #76 Villanova, and the 4 point win over #84 Seton Hall, and the next one is #128 Butler. Must be just coincidence that PC sucks on the road.

 

[Billy Jack]

Good point. Look at all of PC's great road wins. There is the 5 point win at #76 Villanova, and the 4 point win over #84 Seton Hall, and the next one is #128 Butler. Must be just coincidence that PC sucks on the road.

Unfortunately you’re stuck in the past. There are a lot of other reasons besides refs that the home court is an advantage. You’re so busy watching the refs that you’re missing a lot of good games. Sad.

 

[Punkbo]

Georgetown and DePaul both made a good argument for relegation tonight.

You gotta think Georgetown might get better after the fire Ewing, but DePaul has sucked forever and shows basically no sign of being competitive in a power conference.

Neither team was in the game for even a second tonight.

Also, lol, Providence.

Conferences clearly benefit from having a presence in large markets. At one point, it was to capture a large TV audience. Now, it’s more about getting exposure in strong recruiting areas. Either way, the Big East has a presence in three large cities with great basketball history: New York, Washington DC and Chicago. The local teams should get the most benefit from being in these markets. However, these programs are struggling. Last night was a very bad night for DePaul and Georgetown. They were clearly outclassed in these games and the effort was marginal. What will it take to get these programs back on track? Is it possible for DePaul? They’ve been bad for a long time. We should want all Big East teams to be successful. It’s good for the conference.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

I wonder if Coach Cooley had a discussion with Croswell about sinking that worthless 3-pointer at the end of the game.

Made an 8-pt game a 5-pt game and added a blemish to his stellar "Close Games" record.

 

[August_West]

No cans for students. Apparently the new rule is anyone under 25 beers had to poured into plastic cups.

Theyve actually ruined some stuff this year, a student reporters laptop and soaked a bunch of people you dont want to soak.

 

[August_West]

Georgetown and DePaul both made a good argument for relegation tonight.

You gotta think Georgetown might get better after the fire Ewing, but DePaul has sucked forever and shows basically no sign of being competitive in a power conference.

Neither team was in the game for even a second tonight.

Also, lol, Providence.

If Georgetown does pull Pitino they will automatically rise to mid pack. Take a bit of work to make the step after that, but I have no doubt that he will have that team out of the cellar and then some pretty much immediately.

 

[August_West]

Good point. Look at all of PC's great road wins. There is the 5 point win at #76 Villanova, and the 4 point win over #84 Seton Hall, and the next one is #128 Butler. Must be just coincidence that PC sucks on the road.

Thats 2 more than we have

 

[TRest]

If Georgetown does pull Pitino they will automatically rise to mid pack. Take a bit of work to make the step after that, but I have no doubt that he will have that team out of the cellar and then some pretty much immediately.

Pitino has enough juice to get Thompson's sons out of the building for good. Ewing couldnt do that.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Unfortunately you’re stuck in the past. There are a lot of other reasons besides refs that the home court is an advantage. You’re so busy watching the refs that you’re missing a lot of good games. Sad.

Sure. Like the refs being afraid PC fans will knife them in the parking lot. The disparity for PC isn't explainable by anything that happens on the court, or by crowd support, Cooley's witty banter, or consumption of pizza strips or watery clam chowder. PC just gets a wildly favorable whistle at home, which is the "home" of the Big East from a historical standpoint.

I'm glad they will likely get Nova in MSG.

 

[bendm]

With PC losing there is probably a ~20-25% chance we see them next Thursday at MSG. For that to happen Seton Hall would have to win in Providence on Saturday and Creighton would need to win @Depaul.

who would we rather play? Creighton or PC?

i think PC because falling to the 4 seed would require them losing 2 home games in a row, and they would be 1-3 in their last 4 going into the BET.

if creighton lost to at depaul then theyd also be 1-3 in their last 4 going into the BET but i dont think thatll happen

either way, i think id rather play PC or Creighton than Nova 2x in a row

 

[Matt1010]

who would we rather play? Creighton or PC?

i think PC because falling to the 4 seed would require them losing 2 home games in a row, and they would be 1-3 in their last 4 going into the BET.

if creighton lost to at depaul then theyd also be 1-3 in their last 4 going into the BET but i dont think thatll happen

either way, i think id rather play PC or Creighton than Nova 2x in a row

Personally I'd rather play PC than Creighton. I'd also rather play Nova over either of them, but that's not going to happen because Nova is locked into the 6 and we aren't getting the 3 seed.

 

[bendm]

Personally I'd rather play PC than Creighton. I'd also rather play Nova over either of them, but that's not going to happen because Nova is locked into the 6 and we aren't getting the 3 seed.

let's see what happens saturday but right now i'd take PC over Nova if i could choose.

technically we could get the 3 seed. if Creighton and pc both lose the last game we'd all be tied in the standings. we'd have a tiebreaker over crieghton since they got swept by marquette and we split. who gets the 3 seed between us and PC would come down to a coin flip.

 

[Tyler2Rings]

who gets the 3 seed between us and PC would come down to a coin flip.

Hardly worth the time to type since it's not going to happen but before coin flip they use NET rankings

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

No cans for students. Apparently the new rule is anyone under 25 beers had to poured into plastic cups.

So your 25th beer is some kind of magic number after which you're considered trustworthy to be served a can?

 

[Billy Jack]

The disparity for PC isn’t explainable . . . PC just gets a wildly favorable whistle at home.

Are you aware of the free throw disparity in PCU's home games? And have you seen the manner in which they defend?

Someone shared the free throw numbers earlier or maybe in another thread. They are pretty convincing.

I’m not sure what they are convincing of? You guys seem to be attributing any disparity to some conspiracy originating in the Big East office or simply contrived by the refs themselves. Where’s the evidence for that?

Considering only Big East games, the fact is that more fouls are called against PC at home than on the road. It is also a fact that more fouls are called against opponents than against PC BOTH at home AND on the road. The disparity IS greater in PC’s favor in the Dunk than it is elsewhere, but nonetheless calls are going in PC’s favor BOTH at home AND on the road.

So, what’s going on here? Well, another fact is that the Big East has some of the MOST foul prone teams in the country and some of the LEAST foul prone teams. Look at Creighton and Butler and you’ll find the same disparity that you find for PC. Here’s where Big East teams stand among all 363 D-1 teams on the official NCAA rankings for fewest personal fouls committed in all games.

1. Creighton (12.7)
3. Butler (13.1)
26. Georgetown (14.5)
53. Providence (15.2)
93. Villanova (15.9)
111. Marquette (16.1)
112. Xavier (16.1)
128. St. John’s (16.3)
247. Seton Hall (17.8)
290. DePaul (18.6)
304. UConn (18.8)

So, the bottom line is that regardless of who the opponent is, we are one of the most foul prone teams in the country. This is a bad idea for any team because it’s a way that teams beat themselves. It is an indicator of poor fundamentals on defense and as such, it is completely correctable by the coaching staff.

Complaining about the referees is a classic case of shooting the messenger. The refs call more fouls against us because our players commit more fouls than other teams do. Attributing this to the Big East HQ being in Providence is just lunacy. There is a disparity in foul calls at the Dunk because PC is one of the better teams in the country at playing defense without committing fouls.

Here’s another unpleasant fact. Our 12.7 turnovers per game rank us 188th in fewest TOVs among 363 D-1 teams, which is decidedly mediocre. A number of our losses can be directly attributed to too many TOVs. This is another sign of poor fundamentals. Again, look to the coaching staff. If the dual trends of committing fouls and turning the ball over are not corrected, we will be seeing an early exit from the tournaments because these are ways that teams beat themselves. In close games against evenly matched teams, these can be difference makers.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I’m not sure what they are convincing of? You guys seem to be attributing any disparity to some conspiracy originating in the Big East office or simply contrived by the refs themselves. Where’s the evidence for that?

Considering only Big East games, the fact is that more fouls are called against PC at home than on the road. It is also a fact that more fouls are called against opponents than against PC BOTH at home AND on the road. The disparity IS greater in PC’s favor in the Dunk than it is elsewhere, but nonetheless calls are going in PC’s favor BOTH at home AND on the road.

So, what’s going on here? Well, another fact is that the Big East has some of the MOST foul prone teams in the country and some of the LEAST foul prone teams. Look at Creighton and Butler and you’ll find the same disparity that you find for PC. Here’s where Big East teams stand among all 363 D-1 teams on the official NCAA rankings for fewest personal fouls committed in all games.

1. Creighton (12.7)
3. Butler (13.1)
26. Georgetown (14.5)
53. Providence (15.2)
93. Villanova (15.9)
111. Marquette (16.1)
112. Xavier (16.1)
128. St. John’s (16.3)
247. Seton Hall (17.8)
290. DePaul (18.6)
304. UConn (18.8)

So, the bottom line is that regardless of who the opponent is, we are one of the most foul prone teams in the country. This is a bad idea for any team because it’s a way that teams beat themselves. It is an indicator of poor fundamentals on defense and as such, it is completely correctable by the coaching staff.

Complaining about the referees is a classic case of shooting the messenger. The refs call more fouls against us because our players commit more fouls than other teams do. Attributing this to the Big East HQ being in Providence is just lunacy. There is a disparity in foul calls at the Dunk because PC is one of the better teams in the country at playing defense without committing fouls.

Here’s another unpleasant fact. Our 12.7 turnovers per game rank us 188th in fewest TOVs among 363 D-1 teams, which is decidedly mediocre. A number of our losses can be directly attributed to too many TOVs. This is another sign of poor fundamentals. Again, look to the coaching staff. If the dual trends of committing fouls and turning the ball over are not corrected, we will be seeing an early exit from the tournaments because these are ways that teams beat themselves. In close games against evenly matched teams, these can be difference makers.

If you watch them play, you‘d never conclude that UConn commits more fouls than PC. The problem is what the Big East considers a foul. I know you don’t agree so the argument is pointless. I see PC games and they foul like mad and it isn’t called. Happened last night vs Xavier. One call against Carter was comical, he bumped Boum hard, then bumped him hard again, then slashed down on his shoulder and arm, was called and complained. Three fouls in about 5 seconds, the refs saw one. Other leagues call those bumps and let touch fouls go. UConn is prone to touch fouls.

As for conspiracies, yes, I think the Big East refs hate Dan Hurley and have penalized the team all year. @Chief00 said they hold the Bouknight thing against us too. Dan has been notably quiet. He knows it has been happening and he’s shut up in hopes that maybe they will disfavor his team less. Have you ever seen him less animated than he’s been the last 8-10 games?

 

[gtcam]

If you watch them play, you‘d never conclude that UConn commits more fouls than PC. The problem is what the Big East considers a foul. I know you don’t agree so the argument is pointless. I see PC games and they foul like mad and it isn’t called. Happened last night vs Xavier. One call against Carter was comical, he bumped Boum hard, then bumped him hard again, then slashed down on his shoulder and arm, was called and complained. Three fouls in about 5 seconds, the refs saw one. Other leagues call those bumps and let touch fouls go. UConn is prone to touch fouls.

As for conspiracies, yes, I think the Big East refs hate Dan Hurley and have penalized the team all year. @Chief00 said they hold the Bouknight thing against us too. Dan has been notably quiet. He knows it has been happening and he’s shut up in hopes that maybe they will disfavor his team less. Have you ever seen him less animated than he’s been the last 8-10 games?

Dan Hurley can only blame Dan Hurley for his actions and in the Bouk case his ridiculously improper reaction during and after the game.
UConn maybe does receive a small portion of questionable fouls but the team doesn't play D with their feet, the play with their arms and have for a few years.
The amount of fouls and the number of turnovers are unbelievably high and have made the difference in some outcomes.
The NBE refs are bad but UConn has committed fouls that are fouls and a much larger percentage are legit rather than bad calls due to refs vs Dan Hurley. That's not even arguable. I will bet fans of every team feels the refs have it in for them.

 

[Billy Jack]

If you watch them play, you‘d never conclude that UConn commits more fouls than PC. The problem is what the Big East considers a foul. I know you don’t agree so the argument is pointless. I see PC games and they foul like mad and it isn’t called. Happened last night vs Xavier. One call against Carter was comical, he bumped Boum hard, then bumped him hard again, then slashed down on his shoulder and arm, was called and complained. Three fouls in about 5 seconds, the refs saw one. Other leagues call those bumps and let touch fouls go. UConn is prone to touch fouls.

As for conspiracies, yes, I think the Big East refs hate Dan Hurley and have penalized the team all year. @Chief00 said they hold the Bouknight thing against us too. Dan has been notably quiet. He knows it has been happening and he’s shut up in hopes that maybe they will disfavor his team less. Have you ever seen him less animated than he’s been the last 8-10 games?

Yes, I watched the PC game last night and I can’t believe we watched the same game. I watch a lot of their games because I have a rivalry going with my son-in-law.

This conspiracy theory about the refs out to get Dan Hurley is just nuts. Calls by refs are part of the game. They’re paid to be impartial, not to be perfect. No human being is. So, if they’re calling the game a certain way, a team under its coach’s leadership has to adjust. Complaining about the refs is just a fool’s errand.

Meanwhile you didn’t address any of the points I raised. Throughout the entire season, with Big East refs and non-BE refs. We’re one of the most foul prone teams in the country. That’s simply bad fundamentals. It was Forget about PC. What about all of the other games we’ve played? BE refs don’t like Hurley? What about all of the non-BE refs we faced in November & December?

You are refusing to face the reality that this has been a foul prone team all year and that’s been their undoing at times. Much easier to blame the refs than to accept reality.

Can you handle the truth?

 

[August_West]

let's see what happens saturday but right now i'd take PC over Nova if i could choose.

technically we could get the 3 seed. if Creighton and pc both lose the last game we'd all be tied in the standings. we'd have a tiebreaker over crieghton since they got swept by marquette and we split. who gets the 3 seed between us and PC would come down to a coin flip.

It’s not going to happen.

 

[uconnfan68]

So your 25th beer is some kind of magic number after which you're considered trustworthy to be served a can?

Commas do add context.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Yes, I watched the PC game last night and I can’t believe we watched the same game. I watch a lot of their games because I have a rivalry going with my son-in-law.

This conspiracy theory about the refs out to get Dan Hurley is just nuts. Calls by refs are part of the game. They’re paid to be impartial, not to be perfect. No human being is. So, if they’re calling the game a certain way, a team under its coach’s leadership has to adjust. Complaining about the refs is just a fool’s errand.

Meanwhile you didn’t address any of the points I raised. Throughout the entire season, with Big East refs and non-BE refs. We’re one of the most foul prone teams in the country. That’s simply bad fundamentals. It was Forget about PC. What about all of the other games we’ve played? BE refs don’t like Hurley? What about all of the non-BE refs we faced in November & December?

You are refusing to face the reality that this has been a foul prone team all year and that’s been their undoing at times. Much easier to blame the refs than to accept reality.

Can you handle the truth?

I don't care about the fouls called against UConn. Most of those are legit, minus a few obvious ones like Hopkins slipping. I do think they were harder on UConn early this year due to Hurley, but I think that has stopped since he shut up. It's about uncalled fouls. Talking about the stats never accounts for that. Sure, PC isn't called for many fouls. That is precisely the problem, because they do commit them.

Cooley has even talked about it. He teaches them to bump and not reach. Great, but the bumps are fouls. The Big East doesn't call them. It's been frustrating for years, and it's not just the perimeter. I see Alex and Newton get absolutely wrecked on body fouls at the rim with no call because the arms weren't involved. It's a general failure in the way they call game, and one Cooley very intentionally exploits. You can say that's great coaching, and maybe it is, until they run into a crew that calls those.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Commas do add context.

Yes, but the necessary 'extra' came from the word "be" not having originally appeared after "to." That's what gave me an opening to treat the word "to" as though it had been "them."

All in fun, with thanks to @HitDog for the 'assist.'

 

[The Yakk]

I’m not sure what they are convincing of? You guys seem to be attributing any disparity to some conspiracy originating in the Big East office or simply contrived by the refs themselves. Where’s the evidence for that?

Considering only Big East games, the fact is that more fouls are called against PC at home than on the road. It is also a fact that more fouls are called against opponents than against PC BOTH at home AND on the road. The disparity IS greater in PC’s favor in the Dunk than it is elsewhere, but nonetheless calls are going in PC’s favor BOTH at home AND on the road.

So, what’s going on here? Well, another fact is that the Big East has some of the MOST foul prone teams in the country and some of the LEAST foul prone teams. Look at Creighton and Butler and you’ll find the same disparity that you find for PC. Here’s where Big East teams stand among all 363 D-1 teams on the official NCAA rankings for fewest personal fouls committed in all games.

1. Creighton (12.7)
3. Butler (13.1)
26. Georgetown (14.5)
53. Providence (15.2)
93. Villanova (15.9)
111. Marquette (16.1)
112. Xavier (16.1)
128. St. John’s (16.3)
247. Seton Hall (17.8)
290. DePaul (18.6)
304. UConn (18.8)

So, the bottom line is that regardless of who the opponent is, we are one of the most foul prone teams in the country. This is a bad idea for any team because it’s a way that teams beat themselves. It is an indicator of poor fundamentals on defense and as such, it is completely correctable by the coaching staff.

Complaining about the referees is a classic case of shooting the messenger. The refs call more fouls against us because our players commit more fouls than other teams do. Attributing this to the Big East HQ being in Providence is just lunacy. There is a disparity in foul calls at the Dunk because PC is one of the better teams in the country at playing defense without committing fouls.

Here’s another unpleasant fact. Our 12.7 turnovers per game rank us 188th in fewest TOVs among 363 D-1 teams, which is decidedly mediocre. A number of our losses can be directly attributed to too many TOVs. This is another sign of poor fundamentals. Again, look to the coaching staff. If the dual trends of committing fouls and turning the ball over are not corrected, we will be seeing an early exit from the tournaments because these are ways that teams beat themselves. In close games against evenly matched teams, these can be difference makers.

Man that's a lot. Some of it is actually true. None of it is in any way relevant to the question of how much Providence benefits from home cooking. In a debate we would call this long screed distraction or obfuscation.

This should be simple. Compare PC's FT differentials home and away.

Compare their record home and away.

Observe the manner in which they defend.

It is hard to deny that they benefit quite a lot from home cooking,

All teams do to some extent, of course, but UConn at least has been able to get good wins on the road or neutral sites. PC has not.

 

[The Yakk]

I’m not sure what they are convincing of? You guys seem to be attributing any disparity to some conspiracy originating in the Big East office or simply contrived by the refs themselves. Where’s the evidence for that? Nobody said anything about any conspiracy. This is arguing by hyperbole and also strawman fallacy. Probably the explanation is as simple as the refs being intimidated by PC's loud and loyal fans. Good for PC. But the point being made here is that a reckoning is coming for PC when they have to start playing games with unbiased refs.

Considering only Big East games, the fact is that more fouls are called against PC at home than on the road. It is also a fact that more fouls are called against opponents than against PC BOTH at home AND on the road. The disparity IS greater in PC’s favor in the Dunk than it is elsewhere, but nonetheless calls are going in PC’s favor BOTH at home AND on the road. Here you are using numbers to obscure the truth. Yes PC has a favorable FT differential on the road--because they are a good team! It would be weird if they did not have a positive differential. But the relevant stat to look at is the relative differential between home and road. One poster filtered that data to include only the good opponents, and the difference is even more stark. That is compelling evidence.

Going through a couple of your "arguments" in detail. Maybe this will help you see it differently.

 

[bendm]

It’s not going to happen.

i know it's 99% not going to happen. the point of the post was that i'm glad it won't happen because i'd rather play PC than Nova anyways.

 

[Billy Jack]

I don't care about the fouls called against UConn. Most of those are legit, minus a few obvious ones like Hopkins slipping. I do think they were harder on UConn early this year due to Hurley, but I think that has stopped since he shut up. It's about uncalled fouls. Talking about the stats never accounts for that. Sure, PC isn't called for many fouls. That is precisely the problem, because they do commit them.

Cooley has even talked about it. He teaches them to bump and not reach. Great, but the bumps are fouls. The Big East doesn't call them. It's been frustrating for years, and it's not just the perimeter. I see Alex and Newton get absolutely wrecked on body fouls at the rim with no call because the arms weren't involved. It's a general failure in the way they call game, and one Cooley very intentionally exploits. You can say that's great coaching, and maybe it is, until they run into a crew that calls those.

It is great coaching. If they don’t call it, then it’s not a foul. It’s the same in every sport. If the ump gives pitchers the outside corner, he’d be crazy not to take it. If he’s not giving it, then the pitcher has to adjust to that ump’s strike zone. Basketball is the same way. Players have to adjust to what the refs are allowing or not allowing on any given day. And coaches are supposed to help their players make those in-game adjustments. Complaining that the refs Don’t know what they’re doing is unproductive and is a waste of time. It would be like a football coach complaining about bad weather. Just play the game.

 

[UCSouth]

I don't care about the fouls called against UConn. Most of those are legit, minus a few obvious ones like Hopkins slipping. I do think they were harder on UConn early this year due to Hurley, but I think that has stopped since he shut up. It's about uncalled fouls. Talking about the stats never accounts for that. Sure, PC isn't called for many fouls. That is precisely the problem, because they do commit them.

Cooley has even talked about it. He teaches them to bump and not reach. Great, but the bumps are fouls. The Big East doesn't call them. It's been frustrating for years, and it's not just the perimeter. I see Alex and Newton get absolutely wrecked on body fouls at the rim with no call because the arms weren't involved. It's a general failure in the way they call game, and one Cooley very intentionally exploits. You can say that's great coaching, and maybe it is, until they run into a crew that calls those.

You're wasting keystrokes responding to him/her. I think that he/she is a closet PC fan that is just trolling to get a rise out of as many real Uconn Fans as possible.

 

[drayenob]

You're wasting keystrokes responding to him/her. I think that he/she is a closet PC fan that is just trolling to get a rise out of as many real Uconn Fans as possible.

Exactly this.