Mac and cheese kid arrested in Florida

[temery]

How did what I said, contradict what you are saying? There is simply no way you can make someone stop drinking, unless they're willing to do so.

With that said, there are many who are court ordered to treatment, who accepted they had a problem, and wanted to quit. The two are not mutually exclusive (and the threat of prison time is also a great motivator).

But they have to buy into wanting to quit somewhere along the way, or it has no chance of working.

I do agree that quitting forever is the goal, but quitting for just a week would be an accomplishment for many.

Worth noting - unfortunately, your family history is far from unique.

Look guys, I do this for a living. Both of my brothers and my foster son are in recovery. My father died from alcoholism. I have a masters degree and 40 years of experience. Be open to the fact that your gut or a personal anecdote might not be the truth.
Intention on entering treatment has little or no outcome on recovery.
We still don't treat addiction like other illnesses. When we do, we will realize that treatment that doesn't lead to lifetime recovery is not a failure. Same as having new heart problems does not mean your previous treatment was a waste. It is disease. People getting treatment do not have a great percentage of success. I think for many, multiple treatments are needed.
But I know plenty of people who hit "their bottom" 20 years ago, were clean and sober then went back out and died in a couple of days

 

[David 76]

How did what I said, contradict what you are saying? There is simply no way you can make someone stop drinking, unless they're willing to do so.

With that said, there are many who are court ordered to treatment, who accepted they had a problem, and wanted to quit. The two are not mutually exclusive (and the threat of prison time is also a great motivator).

But they have to buy into wanting to quit somewhere along the way, or it has no chance of working.

I do agree that quitting forever is the goal, but quitting for just a week would be an accomplishment for many.

Worth noting - unfortunately, your family history is far from unique.

You are missing the people who enter a program not motivated to quit that become motivated to quit during the program. One could say that changing that motivation is a large part of what "treatment" is.

There is a common myth that nothing happens until the addict is good and ready to stop. Why your statement and 25's concern me is that they add to a sense of nihilism and passivity from parents and loved ones. It makes it easy to give up if there is nothing you can do.

In reality, interventions, mandated treatment, etc work. Not well, it is a low level of success, but as well as voluntary services. "Raising the bottom" works. That means doing whatever you can to stop enabling so the addict feels more of their consequences and using all your influence to force some kind of treatment.

Show me 2 families where one says, "there is nothing you can do, So and so spent a lot of money on rehab and their kid is still using" and the other that leverages the kids probation officer, college payments and all the family influence possible. The second kids chances are much better. Same with adults afraid of losing their job, their marriage, their families. They create the opportunity, in treament, to understand your disease

I also agree we have to stop seeing success as only sobriety for life. We don't do that with any other disease If someone has a second heart attack, we don't say "what a waste".Denial becomes harder after treatment, even if you immediately get high.

 

[David 76]

As far as Mac & cheese kid goes, I would say:

1) He needs some tough love and to stop being enabled by his parents
2) He is not enjoying this. He is sick, in pain and suicidal.

 

[temery]

You are missing the people who enter a program not motivated to quit that become motivated to quit during the program. One could say that changing that motivation is a large part of what "treatment" is.

No. That's actually one of the points I made, but edited it out for brevity.

"But they have to buy into wanting to quit somewhere along the way, or it has no chance of working."

 

[David 76]

I think we agree. I can over-react to this topic. But it amazes me, even among therapists, how clueless so many are about addiction. Used to be worse.

 

[August_West]

I think we agree. I can over-react to this topic. But it amazes me, even among therapists, how clueless so many are about addiction. Used to be worse.

It's still terrible. I work specifically with heroin addicts as a volunteer.

Thanks for you service.

 

[huskyinfl]

Your name implies you may live in Florida. You really want a kid going through the bends wandering through your neighborhood?

The kid is sick in a bad way. It's never too late until it's too late. The unfortunate reality for an addict is that "rock bottom" isn't the rational rock bottom that a non-addict can see and avoid. This kid doesn't make the top 1,000,000 for rock bottoms achieved by addicts.

The phrase sick and tired of being sick and tired applies. Until he wants help, none of it matters.

Most of us know or know of people afflicted by opioids and it is horrible. This addiction is so strong that it makes people behave in the most absurd dangerous risky terrible behavior. So the fact that one going through withdrawls would flail his arms, wrassle and make a scene shouldn't phase anyone.

Sure, he can walk my neighborhood, being strung out isn't a crime, and if you knew how many of your neighbors were on drugs and functioning... Is he a risk to do a petty misdemeanor? Sure.

 

[Husky25]

...Bottom line is that if the kid doesn't want "it," "It" won't work. A person in court ordered rehab might come to realize over the course of their stay that it's what is best and continue to work the program afterward...

You are missing the people who enter a program not motivated to quit that become motivated to quit during the program.

The only difference between these two statements is one is yours and one is mine. Gatti was in treatment. He left the facility. Doesn't appear to me to be one of those cases of becoming motivated to quit during the course of a court-order rehab. Does it?

My comment regarding the parents is particular to this case alone. Gatti is from New York State. Yet he's been arrest in Western Massachusetts, Northeast Connecticut, and now Florida. Like it or not, the story was in the newspaper and is part of the public record. Admittedly, there is probably a lot of missing pieces, but lacking any further specific knowledge, I think it is an appropriate question.

 

[Husky25]

Being strung out in public is a crime (degree of enforcement varies) and flailing one's arms and making a scene, while exhibiting withdrawal symptoms is not the common definition of "functional."

 

[David 76]

It's still terrible. I work specifically with heroin addicts as a volunteer.

Thanks for you service.

Thanks for your voluntary service!

 

[David 76]

The only difference between these two statements is one is yours and one is mine. Gatti was in treatment. He left the facility. Doesn't appear to me to be one of those cases of becoming motivated to quit during the course of a court-order rehab. Does it?

My comment regarding the parents is particular to this case alone. Gatti is from New York State. Yet he's been arrest in Western Massachusetts, Northeast Connecticut, and now Florida. Like it or not, the story was in the newspaper and is part of the public record. Admittedly, there is probably a lot of missing pieces, but lacking any further specific knowledge, I think it is an appropriate question.

Agree to disagree. The result of your statement, for many, is don't bother because it won't do any good unless they want "it". I think the difference is more than semantics and I would never tell a parent or spouse what you said.

I don't think we disagree on the parents.

 

[Husky25]

Agree to disagree. The result of your statement, for many, is don't bother because it won't do any good unless they want "it". I think the difference is more than semantics and I would never tell a parent or spouse what you said.

I don't think we disagree on the parents.

B.S. The result of my statement is the result of your statement is the result of Temey's statement. Yet mine "[adds] a sense of "nihilism." Passive aggressive much? Go back to the first page and read what I wrote about an intervention. I never said don't do anything.

At the end of the day, the subject must be accountable at some point during the process (whether it be at the beginning, middle, or end), or else he/she will just go through the motions to appease who he deems are his "authorities." Heck there is a better than average chance someone who "wants it" has a relapse, but someone who doesn't recognize their demons themselves will certainly revert back to old habits.

 

[David 76]

Sadly, it's just a matter of time before he becomes a statistic. He was ordered into rehab by a judge. He won't take to it until he chooses to get rehabilitated on his own accord.

Not sure why you are getting angry. Not sure why you think we are saying the same thing. Sincerely confused.

 

[Husky25]

Not sure why you are getting angry. Not sure why you think we are saying the same thing. Sincerely confused.

I'm not getting angry, but I don't appreciate the mis-characterization of my statements. I think we are saying the same thing because we are. My post from last night (followed up by the one this morning) could not have been any clearer. I can't help it if you are confused, but I'm not going to repeat myself again. It's all right there for the reading.

Be all that as it may, I'm moving on.

 

[HooperScooper]

This kid just won't go away.

Ex-UConn student in mac n’ cheese tirade convicted of breach of peace, fined $100 after judge terminates special probation

 

[8893]

@temery , this should be the next avatar you impose on someone who doesn't have one:

 

[intlzncster]

To be fair, I checked with each user first before changing their avatar. But I do like your suggestion.

Way to squelch all the fun out of it, Tom. Be a little more ruthless.

 

[temery]

@temery , this should be the next avatar you impose on someone who doesn't have one:

To be fair, I checked with each user first before changing their avatar. I'd like your suggestion if it weren't for the fact the kid needs some serious help.

 

[Letsgohuskies11]

thats the face of a kid who couldnt sleep in a jail cell for fear of being raped

 

[temery]

Wait ... This isn't really another event. It's a local judge's response to something that happened in Florida in May. I'm hoping he's made progress in the past two months.

 

[mauconnfan]

Was there a chance 77-74 wasn't posting on the dates he was in jail and in court?

 

[7774]

Was there a chance 77-74 wasn't posting on the dates he was in jail and in court?

Another classic mau zinger. If you could just reallocate the time you spend obsessing about me and put it into basic thinking skills, there's a chance that in only a few short months you could pass for a regular below average human.

 

[mauconnfan]

Another classic mau zinger. If you could just reallocate the time you spend obsessing about me and put it into basic thinking skills, there's a chance that in only a few short months you could pass for a regular below average human.

LOL couldn't have imagined you'd come up with such a creative comeback? Predictable, boring human being.

I wasn't obsessing wouldn't waste my time with you. Just having fun with a little minded boy who thinks a lot of himself. Your the stalker, you should know the difference. I'm through, you're too easy. Ignored

 

[7774]

LOL couldn't have imagined you'd come up with such a creative comeback?

I like that you made this a question. It's like "I'm Ron Burgandy?".

I agree though, ignore is probably for the best. At this point you have to be tired of throwing delusional nonsense at the wall desperately hoping it will stick.

 

[Huskies4ever]

@temery , this should be the next avatar you impose on someone who doesn't have one:

The kid looks 15/16 years old.

 

[dennismenace]

It is but the thinking is starting to change.
What if addiction is actually not a progressive disease like cancer or something ( like the 12 step programs tout) but is actually a learning disability?
What if all these years where we claimed " acceptance " was the key that the acceptance was actually maturation?

Elements of truth in "maturation" HAG (humility -see things as they really are) (acceptance - life on life terms) (gratitude -count blessings instead of losses)
Alcoholism = 3 fold disease: Spiritual (I am not God, need a higher power) Mental/emotional and Physical. Addiction is the physical part which goes away
after detox in a few days. Mental/emotional = obsession leads to picking up a drink or drug which sets of a chain reaction of obsessive (More) compulsive (pick it up)
behavior. Only a miracle of relief of the obsession will stop an alcoholic from drinking. Teenage alcoholics have never gone through the teen maturity that the average
person does and so has to go back and learn how to live life that they never learned. Growth stops when chemicals are taken to alter conscience. But "once an alcoholic
always an alcoholic" (never be able to safely ingest alcohol again = allergy of mind and body)

 

[DonaldDraper]

@8893 consider me inspired.

 

[tdrink]

Elements of truth in "maturation" HAG (humility -see things as they really are) (acceptance - life on life terms) (gratitude -count blessings instead of losses)
Alcoholism = 3 fold disease: Spiritual (I am not God, need a higher power) Mental/emotional and Physical. Addiction is the physical part which goes away
after detox in a few days. Mental/emotional = obsession leads to picking up a drink or drug which sets of a chain reaction of obsessive (More) compulsive (pick it up)
behavior. Only a miracle of relief of the obsession will stop an alcoholic from drinking. Teenage alcoholics have never gone through the teen maturity that the average
person does and so has to go back and learn how to live life that they never learned. Growth stops when chemicals are taken to alter conscience. But "once an alcoholic
always an alcoholic" (never be able to safely ingest alcohol again = allergy of mind and body)

The AA doctrine has no basis in science.

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

 

[dennismenace]

The AA doctrine has no basis in science.

The Bad Science of Alcoholics Anonymous

It doesn't claim to be based in science. It believes that the disease of alcoholism is physical, mental/emotional and spiritual. It cooperates with the scientific community as well as churches
and psychology. It is a fellowship. It has no opinions on outside groups or methods.

 

[tdrink]

It doesn't claim to be based in science. It believes that the disease of alcoholism is physical, mental/emotional and spiritual. It cooperates with the scientific community as well as churches
and psychology. It is a fellowship. It has no opinions on outside groups or methods.

I know this is a touchy subject for a lot of people.

But "once an alcoholic
always an alcoholic" (never be able to safely ingest alcohol again = allergy of mind and body)

This all or nothing approach doesn't work for everybody, but you guys sell it as gospel. Other therapies end up hamstrung by the prevalence of it's acceptance. If you read the article you would find that AA has not cooperated with the scientific community. They haven't denied them either. But they have not had to withstand any type of peer review or proof of effectiveness despite that their model of addiction therapy receives huge amounts of health care dollars. If there are better/more cost effective therapies (which other countries seem to be showing there are) we should move toward them and away from the 100 year old AA model. We don't largely because of the faith based aspect, even though that is getting downplayed somewhat out of necessity.