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Key tweets, and it's all gone to Hell.

For those interested in the AAU metrics, this annual report by the Center for Measuring University Performance does a pretty good job of sketching out the broad numbers. Schools are grouped together by how many metrics in which they rank in the top 25 or top 50. And then ranked either publics only (pg 20), privates only or publics and privates together (pg 14).

https://mup.asu.edu/sites/default/f...rican-research-universities-annual-report.pdf

These would be some of the hard metrics used by the AAU. Softer metrics would be undergraduate reputation, and strength and reputation of "core academic departments" i.e. arts & sciences.
 
chicago312 said:
For those interested in the AAU metrics, this annual report by the Center for Measuring University Performance does a pretty good job of sketching out the broad numbers. Schools are grouped together by how many metrics in which they rank in the top 25 or top 50. And then ranked either publics only (pg 20), privates only or publics and privates together (pg 14).

https://mup.asu.edu/sites/default/f...rican-research-universities-annual-report.pdf

These would be some of the hard metrics used by the AAU. Softer metrics would be undergraduate reputation, and strength and reputation of "core academic departments" i.e. arts & sciences.
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And you can have as big of rose colored glasses in the world and see that Cincy is leaps and bounds ahead of Connecticut (when combining the medical center) when looking at pretty much any research item in that document.
 
Slasher said:
And you can have as big of rose colored glasses in the world and see that Cincy is leaps and bounds ahead of Connecticut (when combining the medical center) when looking at pretty much any research item in that document.
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I looked at this the other day and was not convinced it was close to AAU metrics at all. I compared Cincy to some of the schools currently in the AAU -- not UConn. And the internal AAU documents I've seen are night and day different than this study.

I can't tell you why there's such a discrepancy, but even in UConn's case, the $86m research budget is really small compared to the actual numbers. But it's not just research dollars. The lack of faculty in the national academies at Cincy plus the low SAT averages of the students (Cincy is ranked 362, UConn 34) makes this a mixed bag.

No one has said Cincy or USF or UAB for that matter dont spend a lot of money on research. They do. We're discussing though the actual stats that the AAU values.

Personally I think Cincy is up there as an AAU candidate, but when you look at these studies, it is well above current AAU members, and that right there is a red flag not to take the studies that seriously. Internally to the AAU, Cincy isn't up to par with CURRENT members.
 
I'm not really that interested in these sorts of discussions but here comes my input;

Why are we talking about the AAU? Because that's considered a very important "metric" for the Big 10, right?

I don't believe that there is a hard and fast metric that is required for Big 10 membership.

I think it's something much more like a smell test.

If this is a debate about who would pass a hypothetical smell test with big 10 presidents, I don't think there's any doubt UConn is more of a "Big 10 type" school than UC.

UConn is a major land grant, flagship university. UC is not. The impression I've always had, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, is that UC is a commuter school. That is a major cultural difference between the Big 10 schools and UC. UConn's public Ivy culture and high academic standards (look at incoming freshman stats and alumni earnings) means that UConn fits the Big 10 profile better by leaps and bounds.

That is why Nebraska got in and Michigan State got in back in the day and why Notre Dame had a standing invitation; those schools just have a big 10 "feel," they pass the smell test. It just so happens that the profile of school that the big 10 is looking for often times overlaps with what the AAU is for.

You guys are going to drive yourself crazy (if you already havent) trying to nail down some rubric that the big 10 uses, but it doesn't exist.

Anyway, having said all that, I don't think either school is going to the Big 10.
 
TL;dr you all are trying to apply objective reasoning to a decision that will be completely subjective, should it ever come
 
Slasher said:
And you can have as big of rose colored glasses in the world and see that Cincy is leaps and bounds ahead of Connecticut (when combining the medical center) when looking at pretty much any research item in that document.
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All Cincinnati did was buy itself a decent medical center which attracted research dollars to prop up an otherwise crappy school. The undergraduate metrics really suck big time. If you think the Cincinnati shell game is going to hoodwink Jim Delaney or John Swofford you're out of your mind.
 
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upstater said:
I looked at this the other day and was not convinced it was close to AAU metrics at all. I compared Cincy to some of the schools currently in the AAU -- not UConn. And the internal AAU documents I've seen are night and day different than this study.

I can't tell you why there's such a discrepancy, but even in UConn's case, the $86m research budget is really small compared to the actual numbers. But it's not just research dollars. The lack of faculty in the national academies at Cincy plus the low SAT averages of the students (Cincy is ranked 362, UConn 34) makes this a mixed bag.

No one has said Cincy or USF or UAB for that matter dont spend a lot of money on research. They do. We're discussing though the actual stats that the AAU values.

Personally I think Cincy is up there as an AAU candidate, but when you look at these studies, it is well above current AAU members, and that right there is a red flag not to take the studies that seriously. Internally to the AAU, Cincy isn't up to par with CURRENT members.
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You're right. The CMUP report gives a good snapshot of the hard metrics--research funding, financial resources, faculty quality and breadth of doctoral programs. It doesn't take into account the soft metrics at all such as NRC rankings of doctoral programs or undergraduate reputation (other than the median SAT metric). UC is not a serious candidate. They score well on total research and federal research (driven almost solely by the med school), and are an utter non-starter elsewhere. There is no chance that schools like Chicago or Princeton (or even the top public flagships) vote in Cincinnati any more than they vote in UAB.

And like others have said. A potential public candidate needs to be more than just better than the lowest ranked current members. It probably need to be somewhere around the median for publics, and I don't think UC manages close to that even in research funding.

Too many UC followers put too much stock in what their recently departed President had to say. He was a real snake oil salesman and sunshine pumper. He was going to get UC into the AAU. He was going to get them designated as a Comprehensive Cancer Center (literally an impossibility since Ohio already has three). He was going to get them into a P5. He was going to have the state of Ohio designate them as a co-flagship to Ohio State. He promised to stay ten years to make it happen. He bailed out after only three leaving a legacy of nothing more than 40,000 tweets.
 
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Guapo said:
I'm not really that interested in these sorts of discussions but here comes my input;

Why are we talking about the AAU? Because that's considered a very important "metric" for the Big 10, right?

I don't believe that there is a hard and fast metric that is required for Big 10 membership.

I think it's something much more like a smell test.

If this is a debate about who would pass a hypothetical smell test with big 10 presidents, I don't think there's any doubt UConn is more of a "Big 10 type" school than UC.

UConn is a major land grant, flagship university. UC is not. The impression I've always had, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, is that UC is a commuter school. That is a major cultural difference between the Big 10 schools and UC. UConn's public Ivy culture and high academic standards (look at incoming freshman stats and alumni earnings) means that UConn fits the Big 10 profile better by leaps and bounds.

That is why Nebraska got in and Michigan State got in back in the day and why Notre Dame had a standing invitation; those schools just have a big 10 "feel," they pass the smell test. It just so happens that the profile of school that the big 10 is looking for often times overlaps with what the AAU is for.

You guys are going to drive yourself crazy (if you already havent) trying to nail down some rubric that the big 10 uses, but it doesn't exist.

Anyway, having said all that, I don't think either school is going to the Big 10.
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This was more a discussion of The AAU Membership Potential of UC vs. UCONN for the sake of membership in the organization. You can't really discuss how that would pertain to potential B1G Membership because Cincy would never be admitted into the conference AAU or not.

As for passing the smell test, that one is pretty simple. There is only one smell test that matters. Do you smell like money? AAU, Land Grant, contiguity, a sterling academic reputation, they're all great. That said if you possess all of those characteristics but can't increase the conference's take you aren't getting in. OTOH if you lack some of these elements but stand to increase the conference's payout by a great deal you probably have a shot. Sometimes things really are what they seem.
 
Been awhile since I've posted here. Yes Uconn has had hard chips and Rule #1 seems to always hose us.

But I got to think at some point our situation (luck) will change. But damn its a long road. And if the journey is a dead end then lord help me. I will probably have to die in a steel cage match with some PC/Cuse/RU fan or hopefully Fishy will end my misery.
 
Ldandy said:
This was more a discussion of The AAU Membership Potential of UC vs. UCONN for the sake of membership in the organization. You can't really discuss how that would pertain to potential B1G Membership because Cincy would never be admitted into the conference AAU or not.

As for passing the smell test, that one is pretty simple. There is only one smell test that matters. Do you smell like money? AAU, Land Grant, contiguity, a sterling academic reputation, they're all great. That said if you possess all of those characteristics but can't increase the conference's take you aren't getting in. OTOH if you lack some of these elements but stand to increase the conference's payout by a great deal you probably have a shot. Sometimes things really are what they seem.
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Yeah I understand that, but the reason they're debating AAU metrics is because they're really debating big 10 metrics, no?
 
I think it matters because there is an academic component to expansion both on the qualities that some (essentially the B1G) conferences are looking for as well as what conferences benefit the school from an academic standpoint. I think it's pretty obvious that Oklahoma could get an invite from the SEC tomorrow and probably be allowed to let OSU tag along, yet Boren is holding out for the B1G for a reason.
 
chicago312 said:
I think it matters because there is an academic component to expansion both on the qualities that some (essentially the B1G) conferences are looking for as well as what conferences benefit the school from an academic standpoint. I think it's pretty obvious that Oklahoma could get an invite from the SEC tomorrow and probably be allowed to let OSU tag along, yet Boren is holding out for the B1G for a reason.
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Oh, there is very obviously an academic compenent.

What I'm saying here is that UConn is very clearly a better school than UC. If UC were to become an AAU member, I still don't think they'd be more likely to get into the Big 10 than UConn.
 
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Guapo said:
Oh, there is very obviously an academic compenent.

What I'm saying here is that UConn is very clearly a better school than UC. If UC were to become an AAU member, I still don't think they'd be more likely to get into the Big 10 than UConn.
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And I agree with you. Aside from the fact that UC is not getting into the AAU in our lifetimes, I think UCONN's position as a much better undergraduate college, its status as its state's flagship and basketball history clearly makes it more attractive than UC to the ACC. Swofford already appeased FSU by bringing in a crappy academic school for football reasons, and I doubt he'd be inclined to do it a second time. As for the B1G, they don't bring ANYTHING to the table. The B1G already has Ohio's flagship school. They already own that media market. They already control that recruiting area. There's nothing that UC would bring. Some of the hardcore UC partisans will say that it's because they're blackballed by Ohio State, but that's a lie. Ohio State doesn't have to blackball them because Delaney and the other schools would never consider them.
 
chicago312 said:
And I agree with you. Aside from the fact that UC is not getting into the AAU in our lifetimes, I think UCONN's position as a much better undergraduate college, its status as its state's flagship and basketball history clearly makes it more attractive than UC to the ACC. As for the B1G, they don't bring ANYTHING to the table. The B1G already has Ohio's flagship school. They already own that media market. They already control that recruiting area. There's nothing that UC would bring. Some of the hardcore UC partisans will say that it's because they're blackballed by Ohio State, but that's a lie. Ohio State doesn't have to blackball them because Delaney and the other schools would never consider them.
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Beautifully stated.
 
It appears that neither conference will be expanding any time soon, so none of this academic/AAU talk matters. We have learned that it is all just talk, no substance. Also, despite the talk, academics are meaningless to Swofford and the ACC.
 
With FSU and Louisville, we know how low the ACC will sink in terms of academics. It very possible the "students" can leave these two "colleges" and not know how to sign their name.
 
SubZero said:
With FSU and Louisville, we know how low the ACC will sink in terms of academics. It very possible the "students" can leave these two "colleges" and not know how to sign their name.
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Not sure why you're grouping FSU with Louisville. Louisville pretty much stands alone among their ACC brethren.
 
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billybud said:
FSU actually ranks higher than university of Nebraska....or Kansas
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But...but...but...didn't some hypocrite claim academics didn't matter...until their school can finally be positioned against another that MAY be lower.
 
I don't care about academics in a sports setting...a sports conference is sports. I am consistent with that thought.

I just responded to a statement re academics and Louisville and FSU being similar in the academic regard....there are umpteen measurements and folks that measure...but Louisville and FSU are far more similar on the field than in the classroom.

And, I still like the pick up of Louisville for a sports conference.
 
You know the drill...

Fans pick what they can work with. Win championships, you talk about that.

Have huge revenues, you talk about that. Have good academic ratings, you talk about that.

Have one true champion, well, maybe not...but you know the drill.
 
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whaler11 said:
Even Linus figured out the Great Pumpkin wasn't coming.

UConn is never going to be a member of the Big Ten.

Yamahama.
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Unless you know of another fine New England land grant with lots of hardware, never say never.
 
Fishy said:
UConn isn't going to the Big Ten.

We lost that when it was decided in old timey days that the NYC/Westchester/Fairfield television market would also include the entire state of New Jersey instead of Connecticut.
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Half of NJ, but yeah.
 
Fishy said:
UConn isn't going to the Big Ten.

We lost that when it was decided in old timey days that the NYC/Westchester/Fairfield television market would also include the entire state of New Jersey instead of Connecticut.
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