Key tweets, and it's all gone to Hell.

[Hoophound]

If you have a bunch of households that don't watch college football on ESPN...size of market does not matter....particularly when it is eyeballs watching that prices advertising. Market matters less than actual numbers watching.

ESPN and the ACC was already was carried in most set top boxes in New York (and on YES)...but folks watch pro sports...so adding a college football team, you look for where eyeballs will watch it...and it was not New York.

Yes, Rutgers brought set top boxes and a some viewers as a NY home team....But the south was clearly where people turned on ESPN to watch college football.

It all comes back to winning. UConn was a media darling while winning. If UConn or Rutgers excelled in football, there would be a tidal wave of support. We’ve seen glimpses of it happening from both programs.

 

[billybud]

And...lest we forget..Rutgers was not really about New York. It was Delaney's fear after the ACC announced Notre Dame realtionship...fear of the ACC poaching Penn State...cut 'em off at the pass .Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State​

Smith admits that there was a fear that the ACC could poach Penn State, so part of the selling point on adding Maryland and Rutgers was to give PSU some neighboring programs.

He added: “Here’s one thing that people seem to forget about our move with Rutgers and Maryland. At the time, the ACC was looking to expand. Part of our move was to protect Penn State. Everyone forgets we had a teammate and partner institution that was on a [geographic] island, so what we did, beyond gaining exposure, is we further brought in a valued partner in Penn State. Had Penn State defected to the ACC, what would the conversation have been then?”

 

[DGB]

If you have a bunch of households that don't watch college football on ESPN...size of market does not matter....particularly when it is eyeballs watching that prices advertising. Market matters less than actual numbers watching.

ESPN and the ACC was already was carried in most set top boxes in New York (and on YES)...but folks watch pro sports...so adding a college football team, you look for where eyeballs will watch it...and it was not New York.

Yes, Rutgers brought set top boxes and a some viewers as a NY home team....But the south was clearly where people turned on ESPN to watch college football.

The ACC could have added UConn, West Virginia, and Rutgers. Three state schools that were all pretty good at football at the time (UConn actually beat Louisville in football the year the ACC added Louisville for "football reasons").

Instead they added a private Syracuse because ESPN is run by their media department, Pitt because I guess they thought it was the 80s and BC wanted to be New England's team (lol), and Louisville because FSU and Clemson wanted to flex their muscles and make a more culturally aligned pic than UConn seemingly just to piss off Carolina and Duke.

These were catastrophic decisions, with one being dumber than the next. FSU and Clemson representatives should be made to attend meetings with dunce caps on their heads for the Louisville pic, which may have been the dumbest, least logical add in the conference realignment era.

And spare us about the football ratings in Louisville. It's a small market that UL shares with UK.

 

[huskymedic]

And...lest we forget..Rutgers was not really about New York. It was Delaney's fear after the ACC announced Notre Dame realtionship...fear of the ACC poaching Penn State...cut 'em off at the pass .Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State​

Smith admits that there was a fear that the ACC could poach Penn State, so part of the selling point on adding Maryland and Rutgers was to give PSU some neighboring programs.

Got a link from the article where you pulled that excerpt from?

This article w/ a similar headline also includes this:

-> Delany, who came aboard in 1989 and will retire in June 2020, brought unprecedented wealth and exposure to the conference by adding Penn State and Nebraska and then Maryland and Rutgers. Big Ten schools hand out television money hand over fist every year, and Delany is as much of a reason for that as any. He played a role in the development of Big Ten Network, and let’s not forget that by adding Rutgers, the Big Ten landed in the New York television and media market, as well, and all the dollars and cents that come with it. Maryland brought BTN expanded east coast eyeballs too, which equals additional cable dollars and more revenue. <-

 

[CAtlantic]

 

[billybud]

Got a link from the article where you pulled that excerpt from?

This article w/ a similar headline also includes this:

-> Delany, who came aboard in 1989 and will retire in June 2020, brought unprecedented wealth and exposure to the conference by adding Penn State and Nebraska and then Maryland and Rutgers. Big Ten schools hand out television money hand over fist every year, and Delany is as much of a reason for that as any. He played a role in the development of Big Ten Network, and let’s not forget that by adding Rutgers, the Big Ten landed in the New York television and media market, as well, and all the dollars and cents that come with it. Maryland brought BTN expanded east coast eyeballs too, which equals additional cable dollars and more revenue. <-

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

In the last major round of conference realignment, the Big Ten poached Maryland from the ACC, and Rutgers from the AAC (formerly of the Big East). Half a

thespun.com

Alvarez: B1G added to avoid losing PSU

Just when we thought Barry Alvarez had made enough headlines for one week, the Wisconsin athletic director/interim football coach gave us another delicious gem.

www.espn.com

"Jim [Delany] felt that someday, if we didn’t have anyone else in that corridor, someday it wouldn't make sense maybe for Penn State to be in our league. That they would go into a league somewhere on the east coast. By doing that, it keeps us in the northeast corridor."

Big Ten targeted Maryland partly because it feared losing Penn State​

http://www.capitalgazette.com/bs-um-alumni-pictures-photogallery.html

Capital Gazette: Annapolis breaking news, sports, weather and traffic

Capital Gazette breaking news, sports, weather and traffic in Annapolis, Anne Arundel County

www.capitalgazette.com

 

[noeynox]

Newsom won’t do a thing but flail around like a little kid throwing a temper tantrum. He has no power here and he has to be wary of the UCLA alumni and fans. If I am reading the situation correctly, UCLA alumni/fans are just a bit more invested in their athletics than Berkeley alumni/fans are. It’s a fine line he is playing and the average Cali resident probably doesn’t care.

Be something if he muddies the move for UCLA and the B1G takes another PAC school instead. And UCLA ends up SOL.

 

[businesslawyer]

bobbyinaz posted:

How stupid was the ACC, when they passed on adding UConn & Rutgers, who combined with Cuse would've given the conference a stranglehold on NYC and caused the ACC Network to start much sooner?

Well......the problem is that the ACC was and is an ESPN property.

And while New York may be sweet, the ESPN bees don't know it.

New York is not an ESPN college football top market (not in top 10 ESPN college football markets)...

Louisville is #4...

Oh come on. You’re smarter than that post. Do advertisers pay for eyeballs watching or percentage of the market watching? To pretend Birmingham is more important than New York because a higher percentage of viewers like college football is stupid or an attempt to spread disinformation

 

[billybud]

You have to ask why...just why...New York isn't a top ESPN college football audience....data is data.

Could it be that New England just is not a college football watching area?

Sure..big metro's have the big population numbers...important if you count boxes on TV's. But if you want actual audiences that watch your college football product..welll then....

You have to ask...Why would places like Birmingham, Richmond, Greenville/Asheville, Greensboro-High Point, NC, Louisville outrank New York, Chicago, Denver, etc....for ESPN college football watching.

We all like to believe what we believe....but data is data...and ESPN's top 10 markets for college football are not northern outside of Columbus, Ohio.

 

[dayooper]

You have to ask why...just why...New York isn't a top ESPN college football audience....data is data.

Could it be that New England just is not a college football watching area?

Sure..big metro's have the big population numbers...important if you count boxes on TV's. But if you want actual audiences that watch your college football product..welll then....

You have to ask...Why would places like Birmingham, Richmond, Greenville/Asheville, Greensboro-High Point, NC, Louisville outrank New York, Chicago, Denver, etc....for ESPN college football watching.

We all like to believe what we believe....but data is data...and ESPN's top 10 markets for college football are not northern outside of Columbus, Ohio.

But what is the data? That could mean anything. Just a few examples:

1. The highest percentage of viewers
2. The most viewers
3. The most money earned by a market
4. Highest ad rates
5. Most ESPN T-shirts sold
6. Most residents visiting the ESPN Zone
7. The most residents that think Chris Berman is a hottie.

You are using data that isn’t defined and placing your spin on it. Data is useless with explanation and you give absolutely none. Based on your assessment, one could make the argument that Atlanta, Miami, Nashville, Tampa or any other large market is useless to a sports broadcast company as they aren’t listed on ESPN’s top 10.

Are those small markets valuable? Absolutely! Without knowing the ad revenue from each market, you can’t draw anything from ESPN’s post.

FYI - You still haven’t answered my question on why universities play big time athletics. Most teams go into the red doing so.

 

[billybud]

Dayooper...answered your question?

Did you ask it of me? Please link.

 

[dayooper]

Dayooper...answered your question?

Did you ask it of me? Please link.

Key tweets, and it's all gone to Hell.

Let’s assume the ACC creates an innovative strategy to generate revenue. The B1G and SEC can simply duplicate that and probably raise even more money than the ACC can doing the same thing. The ACC added Syracuse for the NYC market. The B1G added Rutgers for the NYC market. We only need to...

the-boneyard.com

The question in the post:

What’s the reason for playing big time athletics? Why spend all of that money? Why do so many schools go into the red for their athletic programs? Most would say to win championships, but why is that important?

 

[billybud]

Dayooper....good questions re data...

According to Stephanie Divito, ESPN’s Senior Director of Media Intelligence, the Magic City (Birmingham) was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

In layman’s terms, the ranking is based on Nielson ratings in 56 different markets in the United States. It is based on the percent of TV homes in the market that are tuned in to ESPN in any given quarter hour during the day.

Birmingham declared top ESPN market for 12th consecutive year | Bham Now

The Birmingham TV market was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

bhamnow.com

 

[Ldandy]

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

In the last major round of conference realignment, the Big Ten poached Maryland from the ACC, and Rutgers from the AAC (formerly of the Big East). Half a

thespun.com

Alvarez: B1G added to avoid losing PSU

Just when we thought Barry Alvarez had made enough headlines for one week, the Wisconsin athletic director/interim football coach gave us another delicious gem.

www.espn.com

Big Ten targeted Maryland partly because it feared losing Penn State​

Famous University of Maryland alumni

Capital Gazette: Annapolis breaking news, sports, weather and traffic

Capital Gazette breaking news, sports, weather and traffic in Annapolis, Anne Arundel County

www.capitalgazette.com

The ACC may have reached out to Penn State through back channels, but there's more of a chance that a UFO carrying 2Pac, Elvis, and Bigfoot would land at the 50 yard line of the Super Bowl than the school making that move. The reality is that The B1G is the best cultural, academic, and athletic fit for a large land grant university with a focus on research like Penn State. The overall sports offering of the conference mirrors that of Penn State very well. Sure they "could" find a home in The ACC with old rivals like Pitt and Syracuse, some older fans would enjoy it, but culturally they have far less in common with the mix of private and smallish public schools that make up its ranks. Realistically there are about 4-6 schools that don't belong in The Big East/ACC Mish Mash and should be fighting like hell to get in The B1G or SEC. Nobody in the now P2 is going anywhere.

 

[dayooper]

Dayooper....good questions re data...

According to Stephanie Divito, ESPN’s Senior Director of Media Intelligence, the Magic City (Birmingham) was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

In layman’s terms, the ranking is based on Nielson ratings in 56 different markets in the United States. It is based on the percent of TV homes in the market that are tuned in to ESPN in any given quarter hour during the day.

Birmingham declared top ESPN market for 12th consecutive year | Bham Now

The Birmingham TV market was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

bhamnow.com

That’s great for ESPN, but here’s what you are missing. Birmingham has 10% the households that NYC does. If Birmingham has 100% viewership (very unlikely), NYC would only need 10% viewership to match. Would Rutgers alone do that? Nope, never in a million years. Throw in Michigan, OSU, Indiana (many IU alumni in NYC) and PSU and people will watch. These schools have many, many alumni that live in the area and watch their team religiously. I know Fox can show those teams without Rutgers, but having a school in the Big10 makes it more lucrative. The big thing for the schools is branding. By constantly having their brands show on NYC TV, they are potentially pushing their brand to ~7.5 million households. No matter if they watch the game, Michigan, OSU and the others are being talked about by the local sportscasters, their brands are being pushed on ads for games.

 

[billybud]

Dayooper...For sure football is expensive...and the return on that expense is judged by individual institutions...What I have gleaned. from the interwebz...
...Enrollment applications increase significantly following successful football seasons, and schools with a tradition of success always have a surplus of applicants. Because of this, a school's academic programs can be more selective in choosing which students to accept, and its academic reputation can be enhanced.

(I have seen the affect of branding...In 2021 FSU had 66,000 first year applications for the class of 2025. The ACT scores have pulled from 26 averagie n 2011 to the level of UConn's.

oops...I was answering you before posting this...next post..thanks

...As football programs succeed, it becomes easier for a board of trustees to raise money for improvements to other aspects of the campus. While an athletic facility may be the first thing built, buildings all over campus are improved or built new. More classroom and lab equipment of higher quality can be bought. Student union buildings, often one of the most important buildings on campus, can be multimillion-dollar projects.

...."I think more than anything, college athletics – especially football at most schools, though Indiana and Kentucky, among others, would argue more for basketball – brings about a strong sense of community," said Dr. Brian Turner, associate professor of Sport Management at The Ohio State University. His research focuses on organizational behavior, with a primary context being intercollegiate athletics. Turner has published over 50 peer-reviewed articles and made over 80 presentations at national and international conferences. "In sport marketing research, you hear about self-esteem enhancement – why we say 'we' when the team we follow wins, even though we don't play.

...BRANDING

In que...I understand...but does anyone have any numbers for NY watching ESPN college football?

..
Team spirit and its derivative fan loyalty can infect a campus and a community. Colleges like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, and the University of Florida don’t merely have sports teams -- they have sports cultures which represent long-lived brands that engulf surrounding towns and permeate their states. Branding by itself translates to money, but it also lures further donations from alumni and fans. Revenue from ads, sponsorships and branded novelty items netted the Florida Gators more than $10 million and the Oklahoma State athletic department received $55 million in donations in 2008.

Obviously programs go in the red...but there are so many benefits that schools line up to go into FBS...

 

[billybud]

DLandy...

I agree very much with your post...but that does not negate the fact that the Big Ten was very much worried about isolated Penn State and the ACC.

That was 2011 and now is now...and who do you believe..Big Ten AD's and coach or poster's opinions?

 

[huskymedic]

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

In the last major round of conference realignment, the Big Ten poached Maryland from the ACC, and Rutgers from the AAC (formerly of the Big East). Half a

thespun.com

Alvarez: B1G added to avoid losing PSU

Just when we thought Barry Alvarez had made enough headlines for one week, the Wisconsin athletic director/interim football coach gave us another delicious gem.

www.espn.com

Big Ten targeted Maryland partly because it feared losing Penn State​

Famous University of Maryland alumni

Capital Gazette: Annapolis breaking news, sports, weather and traffic

Capital Gazette breaking news, sports, weather and traffic in Annapolis, Anne Arundel County

www.capitalgazette.com

You are seemingly attempting to argue that “markets don’t matter” if they aren’t college sports markets and “Rutgers was not really about New York.” The articles you link say otherwise:

“The major reason for those two additions that are often cited are the markets in which the programs exist. Rutgers is the closest Power Five program to New York City, while Maryland is just outside Washington, D.C. and close to Baltimore.”

“…I (Delaney) would say the driving force was demographics but when you look at it you can’t help but think think this is good for Penn State as well”

Was a “Penn State bridge” a factor? Sure, but it was a convenient by-product - not the primary reason for the expansion - markets and big $$ were.

 

[dayooper]

Dayooper...For sure football is expensive...and the return on that expense is judged by individual institutions...What I have gleaned. from the interwebz...
...Enrollment applications increase significantly following successful football seasons, and schools with a tradition of success always have a surplus of applicants. Because of this, a school's academic programs can be more selective in choosing which students to accept, and its academic reputation can be enhanced.

(I have seen the affect of branding...In 2021 FSU had 66,000 first year applications for the class of 2025. The ACT scores have pulled from 26 averagie n 2011 to the level of UConn's.


...As football programs succeed, it becomes easier for a board of trustees to raise money for improvements to other aspects of the campus. While an athletic facility may be the first thing built, buildings all over campus are improved or built new. More classroom and lab equipment of higher quality can be bought. Student union buildings, often one of the most important buildings on campus, can be multimillion-dollar projects.

...."I think more than anything, college athletics – especially football at most schools, though Indiana and Kentucky, among others, would argue more for basketball – brings about a strong sense of community," said Dr. Brian Turner, associate professor of Sport Management at The Ohio State University. His research focuses on organizational behavior, with a primary context being intercollegiate athletics. Turner has published over 50 peer-reviewed articles and made over 80 presentations at national and international conferences. "In sport marketing research, you hear about self-esteem enhancement – why we say 'we' when the team we follow wins, even though we don't play.

...BRANDING

..
Team spirit and its derivative fan loyalty can infect a campus and a community. Colleges like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, and the University of Florida don’t merely have sports teams -- they have sports cultures which represent long-lived brands that engulf surrounding towns and permeate their states. Branding by itself translates to money, but it also lures further donations from alumni and fans. Revenue from ads, sponsorships and branded novelty items netted the Florida Gators more than $10 million and the Oklahoma State athletic department received $55 million in donations in 2008.

Obviously programs go in the red...but there are so many benefits that schools line up to go into FBS...

Thank you. This is my point. To the universities, it’s not just about media deals, it’s about exposure. It all comes back to marketing. A great athletic program puts the university brand out in front of more people. Big time athletics is a marketing tool for the universities. Going to NYC was huge for UM, OSU and PSU. They hold alumni events and get alumni to donate that might not normally. It keeps the engagement of those alumni high. Same for DC and now LA. It’s one of the main reasons why ND wants to keep independence, they are able to play a national schedule.

Winning programs and athletic cultures are huge. Michigan is one of the biggest examples of this. They have a rabid fan base that extends generations. There are alumni that follow womens softball, gymnastics and field hockey! They take pride in every championship and relish those victories against their rivals.

How do the less athletically inclined schools market? They do so by putting themselves in front of as many people as they can. They play a national schedule. Minnesota playing Rutgers and UMD as conference games helps put their brand out their. It’s why the NYC (and now LA) markets are so important to the Big10. While the SEC is incredible at what they do, they are so regionalized that many outside of the area don’t watch anybody but the big dogs unless they are playing them. Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma and Florida will get people to watch them because of the name. How do the other schools get to their goals? Okie State might want to be a regional school, but, from what I understand, they still want to bring a higher level of students. With college attendance dropping, many regional schools will have a very hard time making it. They need to true a wider net and bring in more students. Going more national does that.

Going back to your original post of the top 10 ESPN markets, how does this show that NYC isn’t valuable to the Big10? You original statement was that NYC wasn’t a valuable market to, well, anybody.

 

[CL82]

“The major reason for those two additions that are often cited are the markets in which the programs exist. Rutgers is the closest Power Five program to New York City,

And who was the second closest power five program to New York City?

(Damn you Rutty)

 

[dayooper]

DLandy...

I agree very much with your post...but that does not negate the fact that the Big Ten was very much worried about isolated Penn State and the ACC.

That was 2011 and now is now...and who do you believe..Big Ten AD's and coach or poster's opinions?

There is nothing in that article that says they were very much worried. Were there PSU fans and alumni that hate the Big10? Absolutely! The Paterno scandal was not handled well by any entity involved. Was there a worry? Yup, a small one. Even the article posted said it was unlikely that they would leave, but it was a great insurance policy.

 

[billybud]

Thank you. This is my point. To the universities, it’s not just about media deals, it’s about exposure. It all comes back to marketing. A great athletic program puts the university brand out in front of more people. Big time athletics is a marketing tool for the universities. Going to NYC was huge for UM, OSU and PSU. They hold alumni events and get alumni to donate that might not normally. It keeps the engagement of those alumni high. Same for DC and now LA. It’s one of the main reasons why ND wants to keep independence, they are able to play a national schedule.

Winning programs and athletic cultures are huge. Michigan is one of the biggest examples of this. They have a rabid fan base that extends generations. There are alumni that follow womens softball, gymnastics and field hockey! They take pride in every championship and relish those victories against their rivals.

How do the less athletically inclined schools market? They do so by putting themselves in front of as many people as they can. They play a national schedule. Minnesota playing Rutgers and UMD as conference games helps put their brand out their. It’s why the NYC (and now LA) markets are so important to the Big10. While the SEC is incredible at what they do, they are so regionalized that many outside of the area don’t watch anybody but the big dogs unless they are playing them. Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma and Florida will get people to watch them because of the name. How do the other schools get to their goals? Okie State might want to be a regional school, but, from what I understand, they still want to bring a higher level of students. With college attendance dropping, many regional schools will have a very hard time making it. They need to true a wider net and bring in more students. Going more national does that.

Going back to your original post of the top 10 ESPN markets, how does this show that NYC isn’t valuable to the Big10? You original statement was that NYC wasn’t a valuable market to, well, anybody.

No...I was responding to the post saying that the ACC was stupid in not attempting to corner the NYC market with a UConn/Rutgers add..

I responded that ESPN was the media owner of ACC properties and that I thought that ESPN college football watching markets played in...on the choice for expansion.

NYC may be more important to the Big Ten...certainly for in-market carriage for the BET.

I do admit my often stated bias (shared by many ACC fans)...that the move into the northeast with BC and Cuse was a mistake. A mistake that carries on for decades.

 

[billybud]

If you looked at Fox, NBC, etc in New York...you'd have different numbers, maybe, than the ESPN numbers....but ESPN was the one with the shopping cart.

 

[businesslawyer]

You have to ask why...just why...New York isn't a top ESPN college football audience....data is data.

Could it be that New England just is not a college football watching area?

Sure..big metro's have the big population numbers...important if you count boxes on TV's. But if you want actual audiences that watch your college football product..welll then....

You have to ask...Why would places like Birmingham, Richmond, Greenville/Asheville, Greensboro-High Point, NC, Louisville outrank New York, Chicago, Denver, etc....for ESPN college football watching.

We all like to believe what we believe....but data is data...and ESPN's top 10 markets for college football are not northern outside of Columbus, Ohio.

You can't be that dense. You pulled up charts that represent percentage of viewers watching college football. Not total number of viewers watching college football.

 

[CAtlantic]