Key tweets, and it's all gone to Hell.

[dayooper]

Dayooper....good questions re data...

According to Stephanie Divito, ESPN’s Senior Director of Media Intelligence, the Magic City (Birmingham) was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

In layman’s terms, the ranking is based on Nielson ratings in 56 different markets in the United States. It is based on the percent of TV homes in the market that are tuned in to ESPN in any given quarter hour during the day.

Birmingham declared top ESPN market for 12th consecutive year | Bham Now

The Birmingham TV market was ranked number #1 in terms of viewership for ESPN’s flagship network in 2020.

bhamnow.com

That’s great for ESPN, but here’s what you are missing. Birmingham has 10% the households that NYC does. If Birmingham has 100% viewership (very unlikely), NYC would only need 10% viewership to match. Would Rutgers alone do that? Nope, never in a million years. Throw in Michigan, OSU, Indiana (many IU alumni in NYC) and PSU and people will watch. These schools have many, many alumni that live in the area and watch their team religiously. I know Fox can show those teams without Rutgers, but having a school in the Big10 makes it more lucrative. The big thing for the schools is branding. By constantly having their brands show on NYC TV, they are potentially pushing their brand to ~7.5 million households. No matter if they watch the game, Michigan, OSU and the others are being talked about by the local sportscasters, their brands are being pushed on ads for games.

 

[billybud]

Dayooper...For sure football is expensive...and the return on that expense is judged by individual institutions...What I have gleaned. from the interwebz...
...Enrollment applications increase significantly following successful football seasons, and schools with a tradition of success always have a surplus of applicants. Because of this, a school's academic programs can be more selective in choosing which students to accept, and its academic reputation can be enhanced.

(I have seen the affect of branding...In 2021 FSU had 66,000 first year applications for the class of 2025. The ACT scores have pulled from 26 averagie n 2011 to the level of UConn's.

oops...I was answering you before posting this...next post..thanks

...As football programs succeed, it becomes easier for a board of trustees to raise money for improvements to other aspects of the campus. While an athletic facility may be the first thing built, buildings all over campus are improved or built new. More classroom and lab equipment of higher quality can be bought. Student union buildings, often one of the most important buildings on campus, can be multimillion-dollar projects.

...."I think more than anything, college athletics – especially football at most schools, though Indiana and Kentucky, among others, would argue more for basketball – brings about a strong sense of community," said Dr. Brian Turner, associate professor of Sport Management at The Ohio State University. His research focuses on organizational behavior, with a primary context being intercollegiate athletics. Turner has published over 50 peer-reviewed articles and made over 80 presentations at national and international conferences. "In sport marketing research, you hear about self-esteem enhancement – why we say 'we' when the team we follow wins, even though we don't play.

...BRANDING

In que...I understand...but does anyone have any numbers for NY watching ESPN college football?

..
Team spirit and its derivative fan loyalty can infect a campus and a community. Colleges like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, and the University of Florida don’t merely have sports teams -- they have sports cultures which represent long-lived brands that engulf surrounding towns and permeate their states. Branding by itself translates to money, but it also lures further donations from alumni and fans. Revenue from ads, sponsorships and branded novelty items netted the Florida Gators more than $10 million and the Oklahoma State athletic department received $55 million in donations in 2008.

Obviously programs go in the red...but there are so many benefits that schools line up to go into FBS...

 

[billybud]

DLandy...

I agree very much with your post...but that does not negate the fact that the Big Ten was very much worried about isolated Penn State and the ACC.

That was 2011 and now is now...and who do you believe..Big Ten AD's and coach or poster's opinions?

 

[huskymedic]

Ohio State AD Gene Smith Says Maryland, Rutgers Helped Prevent ACC From Poaching Penn State

In the last major round of conference realignment, the Big Ten poached Maryland from the ACC, and Rutgers from the AAC (formerly of the Big East). Half a

thespun.com

Alvarez: B1G added to avoid losing PSU

Just when we thought Barry Alvarez had made enough headlines for one week, the Wisconsin athletic director/interim football coach gave us another delicious gem.

www.espn.com

Big Ten targeted Maryland partly because it feared losing Penn State​

Famous University of Maryland alumni

Capital Gazette: Annapolis breaking news, sports, weather and traffic

Capital Gazette breaking news, sports, weather and traffic in Annapolis, Anne Arundel County

www.capitalgazette.com

You are seemingly attempting to argue that “markets don’t matter” if they aren’t college sports markets and “Rutgers was not really about New York.” The articles you link say otherwise:

“The major reason for those two additions that are often cited are the markets in which the programs exist. Rutgers is the closest Power Five program to New York City, while Maryland is just outside Washington, D.C. and close to Baltimore.”

“…I (Delaney) would say the driving force was demographics but when you look at it you can’t help but think think this is good for Penn State as well”

Was a “Penn State bridge” a factor? Sure, but it was a convenient by-product - not the primary reason for the expansion - markets and big $$ were.

 

[dayooper]

Dayooper...For sure football is expensive...and the return on that expense is judged by individual institutions...What I have gleaned. from the interwebz...
...Enrollment applications increase significantly following successful football seasons, and schools with a tradition of success always have a surplus of applicants. Because of this, a school's academic programs can be more selective in choosing which students to accept, and its academic reputation can be enhanced.

(I have seen the affect of branding...In 2021 FSU had 66,000 first year applications for the class of 2025. The ACT scores have pulled from 26 averagie n 2011 to the level of UConn's.


...As football programs succeed, it becomes easier for a board of trustees to raise money for improvements to other aspects of the campus. While an athletic facility may be the first thing built, buildings all over campus are improved or built new. More classroom and lab equipment of higher quality can be bought. Student union buildings, often one of the most important buildings on campus, can be multimillion-dollar projects.

...."I think more than anything, college athletics – especially football at most schools, though Indiana and Kentucky, among others, would argue more for basketball – brings about a strong sense of community," said Dr. Brian Turner, associate professor of Sport Management at The Ohio State University. His research focuses on organizational behavior, with a primary context being intercollegiate athletics. Turner has published over 50 peer-reviewed articles and made over 80 presentations at national and international conferences. "In sport marketing research, you hear about self-esteem enhancement – why we say 'we' when the team we follow wins, even though we don't play.

...BRANDING

..
Team spirit and its derivative fan loyalty can infect a campus and a community. Colleges like Notre Dame, Ohio State, Oklahoma State, and the University of Florida don’t merely have sports teams -- they have sports cultures which represent long-lived brands that engulf surrounding towns and permeate their states. Branding by itself translates to money, but it also lures further donations from alumni and fans. Revenue from ads, sponsorships and branded novelty items netted the Florida Gators more than $10 million and the Oklahoma State athletic department received $55 million in donations in 2008.

Obviously programs go in the red...but there are so many benefits that schools line up to go into FBS...

Thank you. This is my point. To the universities, it’s not just about media deals, it’s about exposure. It all comes back to marketing. A great athletic program puts the university brand out in front of more people. Big time athletics is a marketing tool for the universities. Going to NYC was huge for UM, OSU and PSU. They hold alumni events and get alumni to donate that might not normally. It keeps the engagement of those alumni high. Same for DC and now LA. It’s one of the main reasons why ND wants to keep independence, they are able to play a national schedule.

Winning programs and athletic cultures are huge. Michigan is one of the biggest examples of this. They have a rabid fan base that extends generations. There are alumni that follow womens softball, gymnastics and field hockey! They take pride in every championship and relish those victories against their rivals.

How do the less athletically inclined schools market? They do so by putting themselves in front of as many people as they can. They play a national schedule. Minnesota playing Rutgers and UMD as conference games helps put their brand out their. It’s why the NYC (and now LA) markets are so important to the Big10. While the SEC is incredible at what they do, they are so regionalized that many outside of the area don’t watch anybody but the big dogs unless they are playing them. Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma and Florida will get people to watch them because of the name. How do the other schools get to their goals? Okie State might want to be a regional school, but, from what I understand, they still want to bring a higher level of students. With college attendance dropping, many regional schools will have a very hard time making it. They need to true a wider net and bring in more students. Going more national does that.

Going back to your original post of the top 10 ESPN markets, how does this show that NYC isn’t valuable to the Big10? You original statement was that NYC wasn’t a valuable market to, well, anybody.

 

[CL82]

“The major reason for those two additions that are often cited are the markets in which the programs exist. Rutgers is the closest Power Five program to New York City,

And who was the second closest power five program to New York City?

(Damn you Rutty)

 

[dayooper]

DLandy...

I agree very much with your post...but that does not negate the fact that the Big Ten was very much worried about isolated Penn State and the ACC.

That was 2011 and now is now...and who do you believe..Big Ten AD's and coach or poster's opinions?

There is nothing in that article that says they were very much worried. Were there PSU fans and alumni that hate the Big10? Absolutely! The Paterno scandal was not handled well by any entity involved. Was there a worry? Yup, a small one. Even the article posted said it was unlikely that they would leave, but it was a great insurance policy.

 

[billybud]

Thank you. This is my point. To the universities, it’s not just about media deals, it’s about exposure. It all comes back to marketing. A great athletic program puts the university brand out in front of more people. Big time athletics is a marketing tool for the universities. Going to NYC was huge for UM, OSU and PSU. They hold alumni events and get alumni to donate that might not normally. It keeps the engagement of those alumni high. Same for DC and now LA. It’s one of the main reasons why ND wants to keep independence, they are able to play a national schedule.

Winning programs and athletic cultures are huge. Michigan is one of the biggest examples of this. They have a rabid fan base that extends generations. There are alumni that follow womens softball, gymnastics and field hockey! They take pride in every championship and relish those victories against their rivals.

How do the less athletically inclined schools market? They do so by putting themselves in front of as many people as they can. They play a national schedule. Minnesota playing Rutgers and UMD as conference games helps put their brand out their. It’s why the NYC (and now LA) markets are so important to the Big10. While the SEC is incredible at what they do, they are so regionalized that many outside of the area don’t watch anybody but the big dogs unless they are playing them. Alabama, Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma and Florida will get people to watch them because of the name. How do the other schools get to their goals? Okie State might want to be a regional school, but, from what I understand, they still want to bring a higher level of students. With college attendance dropping, many regional schools will have a very hard time making it. They need to true a wider net and bring in more students. Going more national does that.

Going back to your original post of the top 10 ESPN markets, how does this show that NYC isn’t valuable to the Big10? You original statement was that NYC wasn’t a valuable market to, well, anybody.

No...I was responding to the post saying that the ACC was stupid in not attempting to corner the NYC market with a UConn/Rutgers add..

I responded that ESPN was the media owner of ACC properties and that I thought that ESPN college football watching markets played in...on the choice for expansion.

NYC may be more important to the Big Ten...certainly for in-market carriage for the BET.

I do admit my often stated bias (shared by many ACC fans)...that the move into the northeast with BC and Cuse was a mistake. A mistake that carries on for decades.

 

[billybud]

If you looked at Fox, NBC, etc in New York...you'd have different numbers, maybe, than the ESPN numbers....but ESPN was the one with the shopping cart.

 

[businesslawyer]

You have to ask why...just why...New York isn't a top ESPN college football audience....data is data.

Could it be that New England just is not a college football watching area?

Sure..big metro's have the big population numbers...important if you count boxes on TV's. But if you want actual audiences that watch your college football product..welll then....

You have to ask...Why would places like Birmingham, Richmond, Greenville/Asheville, Greensboro-High Point, NC, Louisville outrank New York, Chicago, Denver, etc....for ESPN college football watching.

We all like to believe what we believe....but data is data...and ESPN's top 10 markets for college football are not northern outside of Columbus, Ohio.

You can't be that dense. You pulled up charts that represent percentage of viewers watching college football. Not total number of viewers watching college football.

 

[CAtlantic]

 

[Ha Who]

And who was the second closest power five program to New York City?

(Damn you Rutty)

Is it BC? 209 miles

 

[CL82]

Is it BC? 209 miles

Well it should be us. We were actually pretty decent when Rutty was chosen:

.

 

[bobbyinaz]

No...I was responding to the post saying that the ACC was stupid in not attempting to corner the NYC market with a UConn/Rutgers add..

I responded that ESPN was the media owner of ACC properties and that I thought that ESPN college football watching markets played in...on the choice for expansion.

NYC may be more important to the Big Ten...certainly for in-market carriage for the BET.

I do admit my often stated bias (shared by many ACC fans)...that the move into the northeast with BC and Cuse was a mistake. A mistake that carries on for decades.

Expansion into the Northeast, the most populated part of the country was not a mistake.

The schools ESPN/ACC chose were the mistake

 

[dayooper]

No...I was responding to the post saying that the ACC was stupid in not attempting to corner the NYC market with a UConn/Rutgers add..

I responded that ESPN was the media owner of ACC properties and that I thought that ESPN college football watching markets played in...on the choice for expansion.

NYC may be more important to the Big Ten...certainly for in-market carriage for the BET.

I do admit my often stated bias (shared by many ACC fans)...that the move into the northeast with BC and Cuse was a mistake. A mistake that carries on for decades.

I don’t recall saying the ACC wasn’t smart in not taking a piece of NYC. I was merely saying that the data you provided wasn’t really saying anything about the NYC market. Most of the top 10 ESPN markets that were listed were in traditional ACC/SEC states (Columbus excluded) and that the addition of NYC/Rutgers was a great opportunity for Big10 teams to promote their brand.

 

[RioDog]

Be something if he muddies the move for UCLA and the B1G takes another PAC school instead. And UCLA ends up SOL.

That would be fun to watch.

 

[billybud]

Regionalism is still, I think, of reasonable importance.

The conference that was born of the Southern Conference and covered a footprint in 2004 of Maryland and to the south....Mid

I don’t recall saying the ACC wasn’t smart in not taking a piece of NYC. I was merely saying that the data you provided wasn’t really saying anything about the NYC market. Most of the top 10 ESPN markets that were listed were in traditional ACC/SEC states (Columbus excluded) and that the addition of NYC/Rutgers was a great opportunity for Big10 teams to promote their brand.

Sorry...responding to bobbyInaz's post...

How stupid was the ACC, when they passed on adding UConn & Rutgers, who combined with Cuse would've given the conference a stranglehold on NYC and caused the ACC Network to start much sooner?

 

[billybud]

I keep mixing posts...I do apologize...old age....

 

[billybud]

Who knows what the Mouse was thinking ? I'd be surprised if the bean counters did not have a say...and got it wrong..

 

[bobbyinaz]

Who knows what the Mouse was thinking ? I'd be surprised if the bean counters did not have a say...and got it wrong..

Sorry...responding to bobbyInaz's post...

How stupid was the ACC, when they passed on adding UConn & Rutgers, who combined with Cuse would've given the conference a stranglehold on NYC and caused the ACC Network to start much sooner?

So, after all of the back & worth your end to the argument is that maybe ESPN got it wrong?

That was my whole point from the beginning, they did get it wrong.

 

[dayooper]

Regionalism is still, I think, of reasonable importance.

The conference that was born of the Southern Conference and covered a footprint in 2004 of Maryland and to the south....Mid

Regionalism is fine. That’s important to many schools and from my observations, more important to the southern states than the Midwest. What’s good for the Big10 might be different for the SEC. You have to be who you are.

By same token, are the elite academic schools of the SEC being held back by the same regionalism? Could Florida, Georgia and Kentucky be missing out on better applicants by playing a regional schedule? I honestly don’t know the answer. Bringing in Texas and playing games on national interest will potentially be a huge help.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Who knows what the Mouse was thinking ? I'd be surprised if the bean counters did not have a say...and got it wrong..

As a (near 40 year) career bean counter I can state with full confidence that the most likely scenario was that those in accounting stated to operations management that the numbers didn't work only to be told "don't worry about it, once the increase we are anticipating kicks in, the numbers will work". Only to find out that the anticipated increase was nothing more than a pipe dream.

 

[Ha Who]

As a (near 40 year) career bean counter I can state with full confidence that the most likely scenario was that those in accounting stated to operations management that the numbers didn't work only to be told "don't worry about it, once the increase we are anticipating kicks in, the numbers will work". Only to find out that the anticipated increase was nothing more than a pipe dream.

Totally agree. Must be us bean counters. Anyone who has studied business would see a list of failures. Today Sankey is a genius. His legacy might be that of Steve Case

 

[mike012]

That’s the impression I had when I saw this being posted. So if Alabama has 10 people paying for cable and 5 of them are watching ESPN then 50% are watching. Whoop de f in do.

 

[goldendomer]

 

[Ldandy]

DLandy...

I agree very much with your post...but that does not negate the fact that the Big Ten was very much worried about isolated Penn State and the ACC.

That was 2011 and now is now...and who do you believe..Big Ten AD's and coach or poster's opinions?

I can tell you with near absolute certainty that PSU 20+ years into being a member of the B1G had no interest in leaving the conference for The ACC. I know this from conversations had with persons in state government who had access to this type of information through direct dealings with the university administration. The additions of Rutgers and UMD were done to monetize cable subscribers in two huge population centers and plant a conference flag in NYC and The DMV.

Penn State's supposed wandering eye was a talking point drummed up by conference brass as an additional justification for adding what were two divisive selections at the time. "Iowa, Wisconsin, MN etc., I know you're less than thrilled about adding these schools, however we needed to do this in order to keep Penn State happy and making us all money." Whatever their "worry" was about Penn State, it was always imagined by The B1G and never implied by PSU.

 

[UConnJim]

The CEO of Netflix a couple of days ago predicted the end of linear TV by 2032. I don't necessarily agree with him, but linear TV is in a steep decline and it does seem likey that the way we pay for sports (and other content) will change over time. Forcing channels like ESPN on consumers in a cable bundle is in secular decline so ESPN's linear revenues will continue to be under pressure. So, why would ESPN pay the ACC more money at this time?

 

[DefCONNOne]

Reminds me of this.

His name was Porkins!

 

[CAtlantic]

He talks about being 12 to 15 programs they looked at and that USC/UCLA came to them first. Oh, and talks about how they're trying to get Notre Dame to come on board.

 

[CAtlantic]