It's just so very sad

[nomar]

I was opposed to having discussion today, as I believed and still do, that today is a day for compassion for the victims. That said, Nomar if you feel that the arguements are so flawed, why not articulate a rational response? Name calling is usually the refuge of people without a solid basis to their opinions.

Spare me. I posted a bunch of things on this issue today outlining my thoughts, so don't cherry-pick one post and say I didn't say anything of substance. I didn't call him a name -- I thought that *his* post was devoid of substance and asked him to explain. There was nothing for me to "articulate a rational response" to since I didn't even understand his point. He responded. He doesn't need your protection and I don't need a lecture. Thanks.

 

[Samoo]

It's more about these ****ed up people.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/14/world/asia/china-knife-attack/index.html

Yet no gun and nobody died in the china attack,

 

[cohenzone]

It's a false argument. Chicago bans handguns and is the murder capital of the country. The UK bans everything and has seen gun violence skyrocket ever since they did. Switzerland has almost no gun control and has almost no gun crime.

If you are really looking for honest answers, look at a society that changed with Roe v Wade in its casual indifference to killing. Look at the devaluation of the family unit. There are many societal ills at work here. The ability to own an inert mechanical tool is the least of them. Gun ownership hasn't changed, yet we didn't see this in the 50s or before. So what has changed?

The fact that you brought Roe v. Wade into this as a cause makes me think you have an agenda that belongs elsewhere. You think that pro-choice made people indifferent or callous to violence and that is what started the trend? Also, I'd like to know what constitutes the devaluation of the family unit, because I might agree with some angles, but some others not.

Let's figure out who gets shot most often and under what circumstances, what sort of weapons are used by a mass murderers, lets see how many abortions they are familiar with, the history of violence pre-Roe v. Wade and then have a serious discussion. You want to know what has changed. That is pretty damn simple, because these are not the first mass shootings in our history, some pre-Roe. Try on for size the proliferation of automatic weapons generally available. Take a look at how the news of violence is spread, even to some extent glamorized through YouTube and other social (?) media and TV. Far different from the pre-Roe days. Take a look at how readily we go off to war, a lot more de-sensitizing than Roe and we toss off numbers of war dead like so many faceless mannikins. Look at the effect of violent video games that depersonalize victims. Why are males more likely than women to be shooters, and noticeably so in mass killings? Why are so many NRA members and supporters a lot of the same people who just don't like to spend tax money on attacking the social conditions that lead to much of the inner city violence?

As for comparative gun related and crime states, here are a few readily googled pieces that relate to deaths by gun violence that can be related to the UK vs US, gun death rates in "civilized" countries, relationship of abortion laws to gun violence. The US stacks up like cow dung :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/19/murder-rate-rose-5-percent - See what it says about gun violence

http://fleshisgrass.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/us-and-uk-murder-rate-and-weapon-updated/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2012/12/firearm-OECD-UN-data3.jpg Look at the chart

http://www.pewforum.org/abortion/abortion-laws-around-the-world.aspx

There is just no reasonable argument that the UK is comparable to the US in the use of guns as an instrument of murder. Not in this universe. And many Western European countries have very liberal abortion laws and much lower rates of violent crime and gun use than we do. The claims by NRA and adherents regarding almost everything are not borne out by stats.

 

[Samoo]

5. States with stricter gun control laws have fewer deaths from gun-related violence.
Last year, economist Richard Florida dove deep into the correlations between gun deaths and other kinds of social indicators. Some of what he found was, perhaps, unexpected: Higher populations, more stress, more immigrants, and more mental illness were not correlated with more deaths from gun violence. But one thing he found was, perhaps, perfectly predictable: States with tighter gun control laws appear to have fewer gun-related deaths. The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation. But correlations can be suggestive:

 

[CL82]

Spare me. I posted a bunch of things on this issue today outlining my thoughts, so don't cherry-pick one post and say I didn't say anything of substance. I didn't call him a name -- I thought that *his* post was devoid of substance and asked him to explain. There was nothing for me to "articulate a rational response" to since I didn't even understand his point. He responded. He doesn't need your protection and I don't need a lecture. Thanks.

Let me be more direct. I'd prefer if you didn't clutter up the basketball with mindless drivel. Take it to the cesspool. That said, I'm not a mod. Do what you want. You are absolutely correct though that your posts do speak for themselves.

 

[ctchamps]

We are all moved in our own way by horrible events. I won't get upset if people decide to ignore me, jump at me or whatever, but I think the best thing we can do for the families who've lost love ones is to at least not be angry with one another as we discuss things in regards to this issue. People are really passionate about these things and I haven't seen anyone who wants to see the world go to heck. We have different ideas how to avoid going in that direction, but out of respect for those adults and children who lost their lives by the act of an angry man, maybe this discussion can be presented without anger.

 

[Samoo]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Seriously?

 

[nomar]

Let me be more direct. I'd prefer if you didn't clutter up the basketball with mindless drivel. Take it to the cesspool. That said, I'm not a mod. Do what you want. You are absolutely correct though that your posts do speak for themselves.

I'm cluttering up a thread about the school shooting with my comments about that very topic? Did you just write that? Hahaha. Funny stuff.

Let me be direct: you're clowning yourself. Not sure what I ever did to you but your attitude toward me is beyond bizarre.

 

[uconnbill]

Tell your children you love them as much as you can because you never know when it will be the last time.

 

[IthacaMatt]

How do you even process what happened in Newtown?

Eighteen families put a little kid on a school bus this morning and will never see that child again. I imagine my daughter's third-grade classroom and can't imagine how the parents of those children will ever have a peaceful moment.

I've never been more discouraged about what we are and where we are. Twenty-seven people have been taken from their families two weeks before Christmas.

Now, we'll go through the usual charade of political types 'investigating' why some state agency didn't step in to protect us from this deranged soul, wondering how he was allowed to buy a gun, wondering why the school didn't do more....and then we'll move on and someone else will shoot their way through more families down the road.

It's enough - something has to change. I no longer care that a bunch of folks 250 years ago thought that they might have needed guns...I suspect they'd change their minds if they'd ever thought of what we'd start doing with those guns.

I just want to express my deep sympathy and profound sadness over what happened in Newtown this morning. I'm sure many of you know someone who was personally effected by this senseless tragedy. And to think that someone would turn their weapons on little kindergarten kids is just unspeakable. It's a shame the perpetrator turned his weapon (or one of them ...) on himself, because if ever there was a person who deserved torture and public execution, this is the guy. My prayers are with you all. Peace.

 

[upstater]

Sacred cows are dying...

 

[Fishy]

Sacred cows are dying...

I believe that is true.

 

[IthacaMatt]

At this very moment, it is a time for mourning and sorting out what happened.

After that this will, of course, turn into a debate about gun control/safety laws. The fact of the matter is this: It is nearly impossible to prevent something like this from happening if a person has enough will to carry through with it, regardless of what "weapon" or "method" is used.

It's a sad and unfortunate truth for our human race. It's unlikely we will ever see events like this go away.

That may be so, but it is also highly unlikely that any one person could be capable of killing 27 people without automatic weapons. If someone tried doing that with a knife or a hammer, someone would take them down long before they got to the third of fourth kid. It's time for gun owners to own up to reality.

Here are the FACTS: there were 8,775 murders using guns in the US in 2010 (more than 2/3 of the total number), only 326 people were shot and killed by someone in self-defense, and in 2009, 18,610 people were wounded in an unintentional shooting but survived.
You are 3 times more likely to be struck by lightning than you are to shoot someone in self-defense.

 

[IthacaMatt]

It's a false argument. Chicago bans handguns and is the murder capital of the country. The UK bans everything and has seen gun violence skyrocket ever since they did. Switzerland has almost no gun control and has almost no gun crime.

If you are really looking for honest answers, look at a society that changed with Roe v Wade in its casual indifference to killing. Look at the devaluation of the family unit. There are many societal ills at work here. The ability to own an inert mechanical tool is the least of them. Gun ownership hasn't changed, yet we didn't see this in the 50s or before. So what has changed?

You didn't really just do that, did you? You should be ashamed of yourself today.

 

[IthacaMatt]

There are crazies all over the world.
There are also more intrusive gov'ts all over the world.
There are massacres, there are gun killings.

Now let's go look at the actual stats.

8775 gun murders in 2010.

326 people shot in self-defense.

Over 18,000 accidental shootings.

 

[kobebeanbryant]

We need to figure out a better way of the handling mentally ill too.

i really wish more people would be talking about this as opposed to gun control laws or our country's religious values.

 

[Gurleyman]

Gun violence in Britain has skyrocketed? Well, I suppose you could say that. They had 41 deaths due to gun-related violence last year, and their low water mark was eight. So yeah, maybe that is a "skyrocket" - mathematically speaking - it's over a 500 percent increase. But if you are using that as an argument against gun control, you're doing it wrong.

Norway, which had its own horrific massacre a couple of years ago and has strict gun laws, had two gun-related deaths last year. Two. The USA had more people die by toppling vending machines on themselves.

Banning all guns will never work, and realistically, that shouldn't be a motivation for anyone seeking legislative change. Between hunters and folks who just feel safer with a gun in their bedstand, there's room in a free society for responsible adults to have them. But there has to be something in between an all-out ban and where we are now, where our peer group, gun-related death wise, is Mexico, Venezuela, Honduras, and the Phillipines, and any whacko can easily get automatic weapons. Even the Norwegian whacko got his ammo from us.

 

[upstater]

i really wish more people would be talking about this as opposed to gun control laws or our country's religious values.

Or meds. I've got a relative (8 years old), and the doctors are cycling and cycling through everything and it doesn't work. He simply has a sensory disorder (things are too loud, kid has ears like a dog), but he's doing well in school. We're amazed at the way the doctors treat him. He spent the whole summer just fine off his meds, but he was in Europe eating local foods only. No preservatives. I think we're chasing our tails as a society, overproducing, causing unintended side effects, etc. Sorry for going off the rails, but I've been having trouble with red meat here (the dyes) and red wine (the chemicals). I went to Paris last summer and went on a red meat binge, drank all the red wine I could quaff. Not a single side effect like I have here (at restaurants mostly).

 

[husky91]

Latest is the 52 yr old mother/victim bought the guns legally and apparently let her sick, underage son have access to them.

So I don't know what gun laws would or reasonably could have prevented her from obtaining these? No realistic way to assign any blame, but why did she get manipulated to buy these and give him access? His brother was quoted as saying he had mental health issues.

Who could have remotely saw this I guess and hopefully as parents we always practice tough love when we consider things that can affect others.

 

[suzyq]

Do you honestly think that it would be just as easy to get a semi-automatic if they were illegal? Really? All it might take is delaying a guy a day to throw his plans off or make him reconsider.

Or we can just throw our hands in the air and say, "Hey, these things happen."

There are surely a number of practical/procedural things that could be addressed. There has to be an answer to this. There is no way that the authors of the Bill of Rights could have conceived of anything remotely close to this. I can not figure out why it's necessary to sell automatic pistols two aisles away from the Cheerios at WalMart. Something has gone terrible wrong.

 

[suzyq]

Latest is the 52 yr old mother/victim bought the guns legally and apparently let her sick, underage son have access to them.

So I don't know what gun laws would or reasonably could have prevented her from obtaining these? No realistic way to assign any blame, but why did she get manipulated to buy these and give him access? His brother was quoted as saying he had mental health issues.

Who could have remotely saw this I guess and hopefully as parents we always practice tough love when we consider things that can affect others.

Can't escape the obvious question here: What the does a 52 year old kindergarten teacher need with an arsenal like that??!!

 

[noeynox]

Not that it really matters, but were talking about semi automatic weapons. Automatic weapons in this country were made illegal in the 80's I think.

 

[suzyq]

Not that it really matters, but were talking about semi automatic weapons. Automatic weapons in this country were made illegal in the 80's I think.

I understand that there is a technical distinction between the two, but for me a weapon that can load 15 rounds more quickly than a human being needs to fall into the "this is really bad" category. No need for weapons like this anywhere except the holster of a law enforment officer.

 

[zls44]

EVERYBODY READ THIS RIGHT NOW:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/newtown-te...door-police-fearing-gunmans/story?id=17976299


This woman is a G-ddamn hero.

 

[suzyq]

School shootings are a small fraction of gun deaths in the US, but I cannot think of a single school shooting that wasn't done with a legally obtained gun.

Making gun ownership even a little more difficult may prevent a few of these school shootings. I am ok with that.

The inconvenience a gun owner may have to go through is a fair price to pay.

It would be a good start Tom.