It's just so very sad

[ihatepants]

Nice breakdown on hand held weapons Charlie.

I have a simple point to make, that I can't hold in any longer.

An unloaded firearm, isn't much more dangerous than a baseball bat or golf club, or brass knuckles.

This horror, was closer to home to me, than, well too close. The details will be out from the professionals as soon as everything is complete. Right now, over the next few days, the focus is on burying the remains of TWENTY six year olds, and six adults charged with their care, that stepped in harms way for those children.

What the information will show, is that this maniac was armed with enough high velocity ammunition,on his person, unused at the time his body was identified, to do a hell of a lot more killing, than what was actually done. What was discharged, is slightly over 30 full magazines of that american made copy of an AK-47, were emptied at close range, most at point blank, in approximately 12-15 minutes, before the psychopath went to a handgun for his own head. Forensics people have been tracing every single round. Bullets fired from inside that school, for example, that went through, wood, glass, metal and have been pulled out of the cars in the parking lots, trees surrounding the school. Thankfully, none of those babies suffered. It was over fast.

Better mental health diagnosis and treatment will not prevent the existence of psychopaths, who choose to do murder. Stricter gun control laws, will not prevent people who want guns, from getting them. I believe in a person's right to arm themselves, for defensive purposes. Small calibre, single shot weapons. Hunting weapons. I do not believe that a civilian has the right to own weapons, like a Bushmaster, which are clearly for military and enforcment purposes. There is no need for a civilian to own weapons that are designed by military for efficient, large scale killing.

Ammunition though. Tracking, controlling ammunition is the key. Laws governing discharge of firearms, and tracking ammunition is the key. There needs to be a system in place, to prevent people from stockpiling what this maniac was able to stockpile, for his mother's weapons. Laws to govern tracking of all discharges of weapons, from licensed weapons owners, and purchases of ammunition, tracked to all licensed weapons owners. Starting with the ammunition manufactures, and ammunition importers.

I agree with you on just about every point.

Although, I believe stricter gun control laws can still help. We have to at least make it a bit more difficult for people to get them. You say that it won't prevent people who want them from getting them, but we need to at least try. A black market is still a limited market.

It's CRAZY to me that people can, for example, go to a gun show and show a driver's license and walk out with whatever they wanted, provided they have enough cash. No background checks or waiting necessary. I'm also sure that loose gun control laws and gun shows are where a lot of today's illegal guns come from, via straw purchases. The only way we can do this is probably to make private/person-to-person sales of firearms illegal. If a person wants to sell a gun, they can only do so at licensed and registered dealers and the sale must be reported.

 

[HuskyBro10]

First: I am a gun owner, have been since I was 21 and will continue to be until they take them away.

I consider myself to be fairly right leaning when it comes to politic, but I can't see any argument for the need to have any large calibur weapons available to public. My brother is a veteran, paid his due- and owns an AR-15. I don't know why any man would ever need that, even in home defense.

Its a joke but Chris Rock was right, and Carl hit the nail on the head. Control the ammo, make bullets expensive and easy to track and I bet we see a decrease.

But one thing no one is talking about because it seems so far fetched is the impact of media on these sickos. Look at the stats posted here, its startling how quickly "public mass killings" (4 deaths or more in a public setting) have ramped up since the late 90's. Guns haven't become more available, and they certainly aren't any better. I would like to hope people aren't getting worse, I bet these sicko's have always been around. Healthcare for mentally ill people isnt getting worse, despite what manysay, it certainly isn't perfect- but nothing is and we need to work on it.

So why are they going up so rapidly? I am starting to believe the media coverage ... nonstop pictures, information, videos of these people are constantly run make these sickos believe they are famous, immortalized even when they do something like this. These people aren't ok in the head, and ever since McVeigh I feel like these assholes get this idea rather then go and kill themselves in their room, be a story for a day- they go and do something as awful as this.

Just think about it, everyone here can name McVeigh, but how many of you can name the pilot that landed the plane in the Hudson River saving all those lives a year ago? It hurts me on the inside.

 

[minidarren]

I agree with you on just about every point.

Although, I believe stricter gun control laws can still help. We have to at least make it a bit more difficult for people to get them. You say that it won't prevent people who want them from getting them, but we need to at least try. A black market is still a limited market.

It's CRAZY to me that people can, for example, go to a gun show and show a driver's license and walk out with whatever they wanted, provided they have enough cash. No background checks or waiting necessary. I'm also sure that loose gun control laws and gun shows are where a lot of today's illegal guns come from, via straw purchases. The only way we can do this is probably to make private/person-to-person sales of firearms illegal. If a person wants to sell a gun, they can only do so at licensed and registered dealers and the sale must be reported.

I agree that it is crazy as well. I think those are some of the changes that we will see.

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[Excalibur]

When you've read all of my posts [I have] it should be clear [it's not] that my stance has not been to do nothing. Quite frankly its been the exact opposite. I have put forth a mixture of gun control and other systems to help reduce these events from occurring.

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Care to backtrack any further?

 

[Penfield]

There are always folks who don't know squat about anything talking about anything.
The "anything" here is guns.
If you don't know the difference between a semi-automatic hunting rifle and an assault rifle, go read up.

In short, "assault" is one type of rifle. The main differences between them and what you use to shoot a deer are - lighter, shorter barrel, smaller round. That's it.

The concept of the assault rifle, relative to a hunting rifle, is that it is easier to carry because it's shorter and lighter, and the rounds are lighter.

There are plenty of hunting rifles, however, that are polymer based and very light and whose barrels could be shortened easily.

High magazine capacity is something that is associated with "assault" rifles, but a hunting rifle could easily be fitted with a large cap magazine.

In the end, a 300 dollar 30-06 with a shortened barrel and after market large-cap magazines would be every bit as effective at killing than would any off-the-shelf "assault" rifle. And probably better given the larger round size.

Don't kid yourselves. If you goal is to prevent mass shootings with rifles, you're going to need to go bolt action only or ban all rifles.

Regarding handguns, they are not nearly as effective as rifles at killing things, and that's pretty easy.

That said, at close range a six-shooter with speed loader rounds in the hands of a decently trained shooter can easily be used to kill bunches of people in a hurry in a crowded place.

Don't kid yourselves. If you want to "prevent" these things, and not just reduce the frequency, the only way to do it is to completely ban all firearms.

Except, of course, those carried by LEOs. You'll want those right?

Well. That would leave open a loose end, but you'd avoid the frequency at least.

Are you proposing we COMPLETELY BAN ALL FIREARMS???

If so I support your plan fully. Charlie Brown for President.

 

[Carl Spackler]

There is another side of this, aside from the fact that an unloaded weapon is not nearly as deadly as a loaded one. The truth is, that a semi-automatic hunting rifle, or the sig sauer, can unload the same amount of ammunition in the same short amount of time, that the bushmaster can. A short barrel, or hand gun, is actually more accurate and effective in close quarters, than a long barrel rifle. But regardless of the type of gun, if the gun is not loaded with ammunition, it's not effective. I believe the proper approach to gaining "control" of guns, is through the ammunition.

But the other side, of the gun, from the ammunition, is the hands that hold it. In many foreign countries, europe, people are allowed to own firearms, including high power weapons. It's not so much a right, as it is a priviledge - but that's essentially semantics. The key difference, is that to maintain legal ownership of a firearm, medical screening and clearance is a pre-requisite, and that means screening of the entire household, and also includes mandatory regulations about maintaining lockers, and limitations on ammunition, all of which are subject to inspection and big time penalties. Connecticut has some of the most restricted gun laws in the country, and every weapon used on Friday, was a legal owned weapon in teh state. TO my knowledge, there are 42 states, which have essentially no regulations for gun ownership, aside from the equivalent of obtaining a driver's license. There is no doubt that gun ownership laws need to be more strict nationwide. But it must be done properly.

THe first step, is requiring medical screening, properly trained medical screening (not your family doctor signing an out of work slip) but properly trained psychologic evaluation of the entire household where the weapon will be stored.

 

[8893]

 

[ihatepants]

So... this happened:

Utah sixth grader placed .22-caliber handgun to classmate’s head after 'encouraged by his PARENTS to carry a gun after Sandy Hook’

Police say an 11-year-old boy pulled a .22-caliber handgun on an elementary school classmate on Monday after his parents allegedly encouraged him to carry it for protection after last week's shooting in Connecticut.

Sixth grader Isabel Rios said that it was during morning recess at West Kearns Elementary outside of Salt Lake City that the boy placed the unloaded gun to her and her friend's head. Its ammunition was found in his backpack.

‘I told him I was going to tell, but he said, "If you tell, I'm going to kill you,"’ Isabel told KSL.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ate-s-head-parents-encouraged-protection.html

 

[ihatepants]

Also from this article on Fox News:

Some parents were not satisfied with the school's response.

"There was no lockdown. No one was called. Nothing was done. And then we had to hear it from our kids," said John Klaus, a father of a student at the school.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/1...nloaded-gun-in-class-reportedly-says-parents/

The parents learned about it from either the news that evening, or the kids told them. That's a very irresponsible way for the school to handle the situation. If i was a parent there, I would be PISSED.

 

[minidarren]

http://www.policeone.com/active-sho...Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial

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[tykurez]

Let's arm our teachers!

Where shall we have them keep the weapon? Perhaps a holster? A high shelf? A locked drawer in the desk next to their apple?

 

[Penfield]

http://www.policeone.com/active-sho...Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial

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From the Article - "g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93."

If I remember correctly the highjackers didnt have guns - they had box cutters...

 

[Dougsts]

From the Article - "g. Armed citizens can help. Think United 93."

If I remember correctly the highjackers didnt have guns - they had box cutters...

You are going to be called a bunch of nasty words for posting realistic stuff like that in here.

 

[Charlie Brown]

If i was a parent there, I would be PISSED.

No you wouldn't. You'd be so damn thankful that your child was alive that you wouldn't have the room for such a petty emotion.

 

[tzznandrew]

Disagree. I would feel thankful that my kid wasn't shot.

And then ridiculously angry and stupid parents for sending their 6th grader to school with a gun. It was a poorly thought out, dangerous decision on their part, and it endangered all the children's lives in that school.

Yes. I'd be pissed. And anger isn't always petty.

 

[swami7774]

And that proves what about what weapons should be available for self defense and/or just what weapons are really available to arm US militiamen against the might of our government?

It proves knives can be deadly too. So we should ban them too, I guess.

 

[tzznandrew]

It proves knives can be deadly too. So we should ban them too, I guess.

The slippery slope argument is fun, because it works both ways.

Why shouldn't civilians have access to nuclear weapons?

 

[cohenzone]

T

It proves knives can be deadly too. So we should ban them too, I guess.

Typical in extremis silliness. You know damn well that a gun capable of shooting real ammo is meant to have one purpose and that is to be an instrument of violence. Not so for many types of knives and yesh i know you can hurt someone with a paring knife And you should also know if you are sane that a private person does not need a military weapon and that no restriction will result in you losing your hunting rifle or your handy dandy hand gun. Bang bang.

 

[RS9999X]

Controlling mass killings and stopping people from killing are two separate issues. Limits on clip size and tighter licensing regs hope to minimize mass killings.

The problem with the mental illness angle is this simple: Omar Thornton killed 8 at the Hartford Beer Distributors in 2010. What was his 'motive'? Omar filled hmself up on racial lit about the poor oppressed black man, got himself caught stealing (which was his right to do as a poor, oppressed minority), and then went ballistic as the poor victim of racism and injustice. \

Should Omar's racist victimization literature be banned as it encourages anti-social violence and literally makes young men morally insane and incapable of personal responsibility? Should the readers of that crap be labeled as insane and disturbed?

 

[CTBasketball]

Just when I think UConn is having a great day, I look at this thread.

I don't have a problem with guns. The size of the bullet is important in this issue as well. But I think the real issue here is the removal of the mental institutions. I know they got a bad rap from the 50's and 60's, but the fact of the matter is that they kept pyscho's off the streets. Majority of these mass killings are committed by absolute nut-jobs. If these people are in mental institutions where they can make an attempt at recovery, then these killings will decrease.

 

[RS9999X]

There's no indication that mental institutions target the right people. Dress the psychopath as a drug dealer or 1930s era mobster or a 1940s KKK member or an anti-Communist like McCarthy and they are
"sane".

Omar Thornton was sane. The woodchipper dude was sane. Don't ever let the secret police decide who the insane political enemies are