Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

[Floridaduck]

So does this article in your opinion say that miller and Maravich were better players than her cause of the amount of points they accounted for?

I have no opinion on the article. Just threw it out there without comment since it seemed relevant to the current discussion.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Not without a national championship on her resume'.

 

[Jorislove]

Even as a fan, I would say she's short in the scale of goat.
Amazing player, but the accomplishments are slim compared to other candidates. Now one can argue the other candidates had a better platform start than Sabrina. But at the end of the day people look at what's accomplished.
It's like the Serena debate. Everyone knows she is goat, but she's one shy of that grand slam total numbers, and it will always be used against her in the debate.

 

[Flyinsouth]

Sabrina will still have time to cement a legacy of WNBA Championships and Olympic Golds. I expect her to be an addition to the women’s team this summer (if we even have an Olympics?). I will add, with the coverage she gets, the bullseye is on her and I can’t imagine any player before her would have the pressure and weight of expectation upon her to produce a championship like Sabrina and this Oregon team. If she can succeed this year then for commensurate places in their career she would be worthy of mention among the all time greats!

 

[Zanzman]

I have no opinion on the article. Just threw it out there without comment since it seemed relevant to the current discussion.

To be honest I thought it was an awful article with meaningless comparisons and didn’t help your argument at all. Some of the players don’t belong in the same conversation

 

[azfan]

To be honest I thought it was an awful article with meaningless comparisons and didn’t help your argument at all. Some of the players don’t belong in the same conversation

I was befuddled by the Pistol Pete rebounding comparison.

All the other players mentioned in the article that won multiple championships. Many at Sabrina's age.

The article did leave me wondering with her wonderful skill set and amazing athleticism why Sabrina has not yet let a team to the championship.

This year will be interesting as South Carolina and Baylor loom large. Oregon must with negotiate a challenging PAC tournament and need to avoid an upset to make the final four.

Sabrina does have a amazing future in front of her. I wish her the best and suspect that her game ledet well to the pro game. Having said all that she has a daunting road to be considered among the greats.

Even those mentioned in the ESPN article played at a very high level for many years achieve multiple championships.

Look forward to seeing her play more and more over the years. While Di is the GOAT and will always be the GOAT I look forward to seeing Sabrina's wonderful game and her evolutions over the upcoming years.

 

[sivad40]

Outstanding analysis. Given the current state of women's basketball Sabrina came along at a time with individual performance and accomplishments that might make her one of the most impactful players in women's basketball.

Time is all to paraphrase The Bard. Sabrina came along at a juncture in women's basketball and at a time of events that were ripe for a charismatic superstar to reflect the expansion of the game. Sabrina may very well have the mantle of the most impactful player.

So her impact extends beyond the court in an interesting way her failure to win a title may actually contribute to her impact.

There's something universal about the narrative of a tremendous athlete who is admittedly very well connected to other celebrities in the sport who makes Herculean individual efforts but fails to achieve ultimate success.

That is a story that might perhaps be more impactful the story of the GOAT -Diana Taurasi.

I'm thinking now the discussion in football over the GOAT. There is an amazing narrative around Dan Marino as perhaps a candidates that honor. Tom Terrific the holder of the record that will never be approached for titles seems to have majority support.

The narrative of those other tremendously gifted athletes who fall short captures the imagination.

Appreciate this dimension of the discussion.

Why do some fans and the media say things like these records will never be broken or what we are witnessing, will never happen again?

 

[WestCoast]

Why do some fans and the media say things like these records will never be broken or what we are witnessing, will never happen again?

Lots of reasons why 2k/1k/1k has never happened before and will take a very special player to see it happen again. It has to be in the right high-scoring system with very capable teammates (to finish her assists) with a coach that plays her lots of minutes and gives her the keys to the offense at the beginning of her four years. The player has to be ready to accumulate big numbers from Day #1 of her collegiate career and miss very few (if any) games. The player must be a quality shooter, passer, and rebounder and have enough size and strength to rebound in traffic at times. The player must be able to create shots for herself off the dribble as well as pull the ball in places where she knows her teammates will be able to convert consistently.

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500? I checked on Stewart, Collier, and Taurasi. None of those three UConn greats checked all three boxes of that lower threshold for various reasons. Very difficult to have that many assists in a career unless you are a point guard and very difficult to have that many rebounds in a career unless you are a forward or center.

 

[UConn2SF]

Lots of reasons why 2k/1k/1k has never happened before and will take a very special player to see it happen again. It has to be in the right high-scoring system with very capable teammates (to finish her assists) with a coach that plays her lots of minutes and gives her the keys to the offense at the beginning of her four years. The player has to be ready to accumulate big numbers from Day #1 of her collegiate careers and miss very few (if any) games. The player must be a quality shooter, passer, and rebounder and have enough size and strength to rebound in traffic at times.

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500? I checked on Stewart, Collier, and Taurasi. None of those three UConn greats checked all three boxes for various reasons. Very difficult to have that many assists in a career unless you are a point guard and very difficult to have that many rebounds in a career unless you are a forward or center.

The boxes they do check: 1x, 3x, 4x National Champions. They are perfect examples of why you dont measure greatness solely on offensive stats

 

[WestCoast]

The boxes they do check: 2x, 3x, 4x National Champions. They are perfect examples of why you dont measure greatness solely on offensive stats

Very true. But the poster asked why observers have been stating that Ionescu's feats may not be repeated again. There are probably even more compelling reasons why we will likely never see another player be named MOP in the Final Four four times.

 

[stwainfan]

Holdsclaw a 3X NCAA champion and 4X All-American. I think her college career was better.

 

[Floridaduck]

To be honest I thought it was an awful article with meaningless comparisons and didn’t help your argument at all

My argument? Where in all my posts have I argued that Sabrina is the Goat? Nowhere. As I clearly stated I simply posted it because of relevance to the topic. What it proves or disproves is...nothing. As is the case for pretty much the entire thread.

 

[FridaFriend]

Lots of reasons why 2k/1k/1k has never happened before and will take a very special player to see it happen again. It has to be in the right high-scoring system with very capable teammates (to finish her assists) with a coach that plays her lots of minutes and gives her the keys to the offense at the beginning of her four years. The player has to be ready to accumulate big numbers from Day #1 of her collegiate career and miss very few (if any) games. The player must be a quality shooter, passer, and rebounder and have enough size and strength to rebound in traffic at times. The player must be able to create shots for herself off the dribble as well as pull the ball in places where she knows her teammates will be able to convert consistently.

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500? I checked on Stewart, Collier, and Taurasi. None of those three UConn greats checked all three boxes of that lower threshold for various reasons. Very difficult to have that many assists in a career unless you are a point guard and very difficult to have that many rebounds in a career unless you are a forward or center.

Gabby Williams had 1582 points, 1007 rebounds, 481 assists, 305 steals
Maya Moore had 3036 points, 1276 rebounds, 544 assists, 310 steals, 204 blocks

 

[CTBballfan243]

DT is the GOAT.

 

[Zanzman]

My argument? Where in all my posts have I argued that Sabrina is the Goat? Nowhere. As I clearly stated I simply posted it because of relevance to the topic. What it proves or disproves is...nothing. As is the case for pretty much the entire thread.

If your not disagreeing why every time someone responds about DT you counter with something about Sabrina

 

[WestCoast]

Gabby Williams had 1582 points, 1007 rebounds, 481 assists, 305 steals
Maya Moore had 3036 points, 1276 rebounds, 544 assists, 310 steals, 204 blocks

Good find about Moore. And she certainly was a generational collegiate player. So far, Ionescu and Moore are the only two 1,500/1,000/500 D1 women's players that I am aware of. Will also look at Cheryl Miller because of her unique skill set. Gabby was close and clearly special as well.

 

[baggerbob]

The only player to say I'm going to Uconn to win 4 championships and do it was Stewie. And regardless of how many college All Americans, it was Stewie who allowed Uconn the opportunity.

 

[WestCoast]

Good find about Moore. And she certainly was a generational collegiate player. So far, Ionescu and Moore are the only two 1,500/1,000/500 D1 women's players that I am aware of. Will also look at Cheryl Miller because of her unique skill set. Gabby was close and clearly special as well.

USC's Miller at 6'2" had 3,000/1,500/400 and held the USC assists record at 414 when she left school.

Nancy Lieberman had 2,400/1,100/900, likely the closest statistically to what Ionescu has accomplished.

Stanford's Nicole Powell had 2,000/1,100/500.

Ann Meyers didn't play in enough games back in her career to record 1,000 boards. Tamika Catchings and Seimone Augustus didn't pass enough to accumulate 500 assists.

Anybody else with 1,500/1,000/500 in women's D1 history? It is the assists that typically limits players from joining that club.

 

[Floridaduck]

The problem with the thread is that the original question posed was vague. Without actual criteria clearly defined (ie an actual GOAT trophy...ha ha) the entire discussion is simply speculation and opinion of which criteria are most important.

What I have be able to glean is that UConn fans think that DT is, in fact, the Greatest to Ever Play the Game. I admit that surprised me a bit since I was more familiar with other UConn players from the past (Sue Bird, Maya Moore, Breanna Stewart, KLS) for example). Also more familiar with players like Cheryl Miller, Jackie Stiles, Jillian Alleyne, etc but whatever...

But there is a way to reset the entire discussion and one whose metrics are provable rather than vague opinions and intangibles
(This is from the NCAA.org thru end of 2018-2019 season)

Who was the Greatest of All Time (to this date) in WBB in:

Career Scoring: Kelsey Plum (UW) - 3527
Career Rebounding: Courtney Paris (OU) - 2034
Career Assists: Suzy McConnell (PSU) - 1307
Blocked Shots: Britney Griner (Baylor) - 748
Steals: Chastadie Barrs (Lamar) - 193
Triple Doubles: Sabrina Ionesco - 18 (still active-now 26)
Most Games in Double Figures: Maya Moore (UConn) - 154
Three Point FGs: Kelsey Mitchell (tOSU) - 497
and on and on through all kinds of categories.

There doesn't seem to be a a category for "Most Years a Member of a Championship" team but if there was it would be shared by many, many UConn players... obviously.

 

[FridaFriend]

USC's Miller at 6'2" had 3,000/1,500/400 and held the USC assists record at 414 when she left school.

Anybody else with 1,500/1,000/500 in women's D1 history? It is the assists that typically limits players from joining that club.

Cheryl Miller also had 462 steals and 320 blocks at USC.

 

[Floridaduck]

If your not disagreeing why every time someone responds about DT you counter with something about Sabrina

???? I don't and have not. Check again.

But, just to clarify, I will finally include my own opinion of who might be a GOAT in WBB (if there was such a thing): Cheryl Miller

Just an opinion but the first player that came to my mind when the original query was posted. Perhaps a prejudice on my part but I'm not sure I could support the whole GOAT hypothesis for anyone under 6"2".

 

[WestCoast]

The problem with the thread is that the original question posed was vague. Without actual criteria clearly defined (ie an actual GOAT trophy...ha ha) the entire discussion is simply speculation and opinion of which criteria are most important.

What I have be able to glean is that UConn fans think that DT is, in fact, the Greatest to Ever Play the Game. I admit that surprised me a bit since I was more familiar with other UConn players from the past (Sue Bird, Maya Moore, Breanna Stewart, KLS) for example). Also more familiar with players like Cheryl Miller, Jackie Stiles, Jillian Alleyne, etc but whatever...

But there is a way to reset the entire discussion and one whose metrics are provable rather than vague opinions and intangibles
(This is from the NCAA.org thru end of 2018-2019 season)

Who was the Greatest of All Time (to this date) in WBB in:

Career Scoring: Kelsey Plum (UW) - 3527
Career Rebounding: Courtney Paris (OU) - 2034
Career Assists: Suzy McConnell (PSU) - 1307
Blocked Shots: Britney Griner (Baylor) - 748
Steals: Chastadie Barrs (Lamar) - 193
Triple Doubles: Sabrina Ionesco - 18 (still active-now 26)
Most Games in Double Figures: Maya Moore (UConn) - 154
Three Point FGs: Kelsey Mitchell (tOSU) - 497
and on and on through all kinds of categories.

There doesn't seem to be a a category for "Most Years a Member of a Championship" team but if there was it would be shared by many, many UConn players... obviously.

Check the career steals record. That looks like a season record.

 

[domerduck]

I finally want to weight in and I do think this a worthy discussion. First off, I think each school needs to clarify their GOAT and the fact the top women's schools have multiple candidates points out the issue. As I read all the posts on this topic-five Uconn players were mentioned (Lobo, Bird, Taurasi, Moore, & Stewart) each with legitimate reasons ( stats, leadership, awards, and championships). You could say the same at other multiple championship schools Tennessee (Gordon, Holdsclaw, & Parker), Baylor (Young & Greiner), ND (Riley, Diggens, & Arike), Stanford (Azzi & Wiggins), and USC (Cooper. Miller & Leslie). They have more than 1 possible GOATs just for their school and their fans/alumni would have a healthy discussion. The schools that have never won championships that have had statistical great players have a clear consensus: Delaware-Delle Donne, Washington-Plum, Missouri State-Stiles, Virginia-Staley, Kansas-Woodard, Oklahoma-Paris, PSU-McConnell, Gonzaga-Vandersloot, OSU-Mitchell, Iowa-Gustafson, etc. Then there's the one with 1 championship and clarity often exists: SC-Wilson, TTU-Swoopes, UNC-Smith, and Texas-Davis, though a few won it all without a great player or even a great team.(TA&M, Purdue, Maryland, etc.). So then deciding on the WBB or even WCBB GOAT is even more difficult. Lot of the factors mentioned in the posts, (NPOY, NCs, MOPs, and statistical dominance) should be part of the consideration. as well as the "intangibles".

That said, I do think Sabrina can have a case if her team wins the National Championship this year which is why I voted "Maybe". I'll start with, win or lose, I don't think there is any question she would be considered Oregon GOAT (despite Floridaduck's love for Bev Smith). Her PAC12 and National awards are unprecidented and her statistical dominance in the Oregon, PAC12, and National record books are pretty overwhelming and she has up to 11 more games to add to it.. Add to that she was the best player on her Oregon team that became only the second college team to ever beat Team USA, the best players in the world. I don't think Bev Smith and Team Canada ever beat Team USA. Sabrina is clearly Oregon's GOAT and it will take something phenomenal to overtake her.

Still if she brings this team to a NC this year, I think it would be unprecedented is she did it at Oregon which hadn't been to an NCAA tournament since 2005 and NEVER had been past the sweet 16. So Sabrina as a Freshman leads her Oregon team to an Elite 8 losing to #1 36-0 UConn. Then as a soph she again leads them to an Elite 8 losing to eventual NC Notre Dame. Last year as a junior she leads them to the Final 4 losing a close game to eventual NC Baylor. Then she spurns the #1 WNBA pick and announces she's coming back, putting her in the national limelight her senior season saying she had "unfinished business". Then she and her team beat Team USA with Diana Taurasi and Sue Bird doing their best to stop her. Then she has to deal with the Kobe death and her special relationship. So far her response has been remarkable, only doubling down on her responsibility and comittment, So if she brings Oregon to the promised land and finish it off with a NC her senior year, I think my maybe might turn to "yes".

 

[Justavisitor]

Three is the minimum. That's where DT, Stewie, Holdsclaw really separate themselves. It's the small knock on Catchings and Maya. In women's basketball, where the talent is so top heavy, you have to have these buckles on your belt

And for me it'll always be D. Carrying that crew to 2 championships her Jr Sr year is like nothing I've ever seen since.

I disagree. Swoopes is a player that should be considered and she only has one title and that has alot to do with the fact that she had to carry her team. Candace Parker is another. She only played 3 seasons and won 2 titles in 3 years. Tamika Catchings has only 1 title, but that doesn't make her any less of a player. The college injury kept her from having a chance to lead her own team to a title without the other Meeks. Cheryl Miller had only 2 titles. With basketball being a team sport, you can't go by logic. However, I would not put Ionescu ahead of any of these players.

 

[Shades]

Triple Doubles: Sabrina Ionesco - 18 (still active-now 26)

Here’s the profound thing for me: What is the number for second place? It’s not even close.

 

[intlzncster]

I disagree. Swoopes is a player that should be considered and she only has one title and that has alot to do with the fact that she had to carry her team. Candace Parker is another. She only played 3 seasons and won 2 titles in 3 years. Tamika Catchings has only 1 title, but that doesn't make her any less of a player. The college injury kept her from having a chance to lead her own team to a title without the other Meeks. Cheryl Miller had only 2 titles. With basketball being a team sport, you can't go by logic. However, I would not put Ionescu ahead of any of these players.

Yeah, DT had to carry her team too. And she got two in that scenario.

There's something about winning and being able to elevate teammates who might have no business winning otherwise.

It's a special quality that separates people. This is why the Jordan's of the world are who they are.

Obv luck and comp and whatever play a factor. But the people who put themselves in spot again and again and again manage to open that door more often than not.

Looking at someone like DT's titles in her bio, and you see what I'm talking about.

 

[domerduck]

Here’s the profound thing for me: What is the number for second place? It’s not even close.

9 for NCAA women, 12 for NCAA men.

 

[domerduck]

The only player to say I'm going to Uconn to win 4 championships and do it was Stewie. And regardless of how many college All Americans, it was Stewie who allowed Uconn the opportunity.

I've always felt what Stewie did was unprecedented and phenomenal. Like Sabrina, she had to learn how to win her freshman season. She lost to a Greiner lead Baylor team during that regular season and I think UConn was lucky L'ville knocked Baylor out before UConn saw them in the tourney. She also lost three straight times to a Diggins lead Notre Dame team. You could see as they tried to win the very close Big East tourney, Stewie was carrying UConn. I knew by tourney time she would be the best player on the court and ND would not be able to beat them a 4th time that year. The next 3 years noone could stop Stewie and UConn on the way to the championship.

What's interesting to me is Stewie only won three conference championships and three conference tourney championships, whereas most UConn players won their conference championship or conf tournament 4 times, whether it was back in the Big East days or current AAC. Obviously she came to a winner and made the team even a greater winner at the NCAA tourney level. Sabrina took a team that hadn't won a conference championship in 16 years to 3 straight PAC12 championships (the same # as Breanna, though hers were AAC). She also brought a team that hadn't been to the NCAA tourney in 12 years to three straight NCAA regional finals with last year being their 1st Final 4. My hope this year she finally achieves once what Stewart did 4 times.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500?

Mikayla Pivec is getting really close. I can't find up to date career stats for her, but the OSU media guide has her career numbers thru 3 seasons and combing it w/ her stats for this year, she's well over 1500 pts., looks like 1 rebound shy of 1000 and needs about 15 more assists. With at least 3 games before the NCAA Tourney and however many in post season, she should definitely get there.

 

[WestCoast]

Mikayla Pivec is getting really close. I can't find up to date career stats for her, but the OSU media guide has her career numbers thru 3 seasons and combing it w/ her stats for this year, she's well over 1500 pts., looks like 1 rebound shy of 1000 and needs about 15 more assists. With at least 3 games before the NCAA Tourney and however many in post season, she should definitely get there.

Not easy to do. My limited PAC-10/PAC-12 research has turned up Sabrina Ionescu and Nicole Powell as the only two from that conference in that 1,500/1,000/500 club. Both Ionescu (26) and Powell (6) accumulated multiple triple-doubles. Powell is impressive in that she recorded her 500+ assists at a height of 6'2".