Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

[diggerfoot]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

OK, I see the disconnect here. We both agree that context matters in terms of championships won, ie, you cannot hold the lack of a championship against players like Larry Bird or EDD because of the context. No way Indiana State even gets near the Final Four without a player who would be in the conversation for being the greatest.

What you seem to be missing is that context matters for statistics even more. Had Ionescu played for UConn her stats would be less impressive for two reasons. At least during the "glory years" as you cite she would have received less playing time, plus she would be in a read and react system with many versatile players. Or, to put it another way, if Stewart, Moore or Taurasi played for Graves in his first years at Oregon their statistics would look more impressive than they were for UConn.

How much so? Who knows for sure? Different coaches use different means to an end; comparing players across different means is more problematic than comparing across similar ends. For top tier programs with multiple All-Americans the desired end should be a common one, championships. I get why you do not want to dwell on championships because of the contextual ends, but comparing across the contextual means of how to achieve those ends is MORE problematic, not less.

Championships require more than objective, measurable talent. If that were not the case bookies would be out of business. In Taurasi's case she brought a class with no seniors to a championship because of her intangible ability to make even inexperienced teammates feel invincible in their own right while also feeling she will always come through in the clutch when needed. I personally feel that how you enhance the performance of your teammates is the single most important criteria for any player, but you typically do not find a measure of that in the stats.

Ionescu may have that quality. Her teammates were not #1 ranked recruits, yet some are All-American now. That's why I suggest you need more information from the future. If her teammates tank once they no longer are playing with Ionescu that is a significant argument in her favor. The stats alone, however, are not. What the stats tell you is Oregon has one of the most talented, versatile players of all time and should be celebrated as such, but nothing more or less for now.

 

[Floridaduck]

This has been an interesting discussion and I much appreciate this forum for the opportunity to read such wide and varied analysis. Please do not misunderstand that my subtext is an argument that Sabrina is the Goat. Far from it. I consider this term a joking, in group type of designation when people are having fun with one another... it is not a real thing. That discussion and Sabrina have been left far behind.

That being said, I genuinely still don't see why so many have a need to declare DT the Goat so unequivocally. She was a member of two NC teams seems to be the crux of it. Ok. Literally hundreds of WBB players have been on NC teams. Many fewer have been on two or more but still a high number.

So what is the other thing that elevates DT above all the other great college WBB players in history in the opinion of some here? This is a genuine question. Enlighten me.

 

[diggerfoot]

So what is the other thing that elevates DT above all the other great college WBB players in history in the opinion of some here? This is a genuine question. Enlighten me.

??? Did you not read my response to you, post #76, before your post #77?

 

[Floridaduck]

I personally feel that how you enhance the performance of your teammates is the single most important criteria for any player, but you typically do not find a measure of that in the stats.

There is one stat that reflects this to a significant degree: assists

Championships require more than objective, measurable talent. If that were not the case bookies would be out of business. In Taurasi's case she brought a class with no seniors to a championship because of her intangible ability to make even inexperienced teammates feel invincible in their own right while also feeling she will always come through in the clutch when needed.

So the answer is: championships. But the history of all BB including WBB is filled with teams with leaders whose intangibles helped drive their team to a championship.

So the answer is: intangibles. An unknown by very definition

 

[Floridaduck]

??? Did you not read my response to you, post #76, before your post #77?

Ha ha...sorry. No I did not because I wrote #77 before lunch (two hours ago) and thought I had posted it. But I had not. I finally clicked "post" kind of right after I read yours so my thing looks really stupid not in chronological order. I am an idiot.

 

[diggerfoot]

There is one stat that reflects this to a significant degree: assists


So the answer is: championships. But the history of all BB including WBB is filled with teams with leaders whose intangibles helped drive their team to a championship.

So the answer is: intangibles. An unknown by very definition

I appreciate the way you have handled this discussion. There is actually a better stat than assists that can indicate value to your teammates: +/- . That stat has limited application. It's meaningless to compare players between teams, or even players on the same team if there are few games, but it is meaningful to compare players on the same team with a large number of games.

Assists is problematic for the very reason I already stated: context matters. We all know Taurasi can score, she proved that in the WNBA, yet her pride and joy were assists and she was the record holder up until recently. Her assists do not match Ionescu's for three reasons. 1. In Taurasi's era the UConn offense was more post oriented. In fact, in the 2002 championship game we went 0-9 from three. It's a helluva lot easier to rack up assists if you can feed the perimeter at least as much as the post. 2. UConn's offense is built on versatile players reading and reacting, that is going to spread any statistic around, the previous point I was making. 3. Despite this versatility, for two years Taurasi's backcourt mate was Sue Bird, who went on to become the WNBA assist leader. Indeed, if Bird had not just played 8 games her freshman year she probably would still be UConn's assist leader.

In lieu of assists or a +/- for comparison I offer you one final anecdote to provide clarity for what you seem puzzled about. In Taurasi's junior year she was the only returning starter. Two starters had seen limited action their first two years while the other two were freshman. They only lost one game and won the championship despite that handicap, but it's what happened in one particular game that proves Taurasi's worth. We were down to Tennessee late in the game, I believe by 6 points. As Auriemma tells it he was prepared to now consider the game a learning experience for his young, inexperienced squad. When he started to convey this sentiment during a timeout Taurasi looked at him like he had two heads and huddled up her teammates without him, rallying and convincing them they were going to win the game. She then proceeded to make a three from about 30 feet, along with some other heroics, and UConn won the game.

The past three semifinals were close ones, two lost in the final seconds. You will not find a single UConn fan that thinks we still lose those games if Taurasi was one of the five playing at the end, no matter who you subbed her for, Collier, Samuelson, whomever. More important, there is not a single teammate of Taurasi's through her college and pro career who would doubt her ability to win a game at the end. That is the basis for Taurasi's support.

For the record I think there are too many variables. I think a good argument could be made for Stewart as well as Taurasi, plus I am in no position to compare to someone like Miller from an earlier era.

 

[j66kicker]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.

Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.

So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?

Then you didn’t watch her play in college

 

[WestCoast]

Taurasi averaged 15/4/4 for her college career, strong numbers for a 6'0" guard but hardly spectacular ones. The national titles that she helped bring home are what has made her legacy so memorable. Based upon statistical production and national titles in college only, my pick for GOAT would be Stewart. For one's entire basketball career including college, pro, and national team participation, the GOAT would have to be Taurasi.

 

[UConn2SF]

Sabrina is Oregon's G.O.A.T. She and Oregon fans should be proud of that.
But is she the greatest of all time? Like ever? Of any and all women's player that's ever lived and played? No, not in my opinion. She's not in that pantheon, not yet

 

[npignatjr]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.

Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.

So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?

3 Championship teams, 2 of which she was the only AA. So is Sabrina winning this year's without the other 2 A As on the team?

 

[Floridaduck]

Where Oregon's Sabrina Ionescu ranks among all-time greats, across eras

Oregon's Sabrina Ionescu is the first player in NCAA history to reach 2,000 points, 1,000 rebounds and 1,000 assists.

www.ncaa.com

 

[Zanzman]

So does this article in your opinion say that miller and Maravich were better players than her cause of the amount of points they accounted for?

 

[azfan]

I appreciate the way you have handled this discussion. There is actually a better stat than assists that can indicate value to your teammates: +/- . That stat has limited application. It's meaningless to compare players between teams, or even players on the same team if there are few games, but it is meaningful to compare players on the same team with a large number of games.

Assists is problematic for the very reason I already stated: context matters. We all know Taurasi can score, she proved that in the WNBA, yet her pride and joy were assists and she was the record holder up until recently. Her assists do not match Ionescu's for three reasons. 1. In Taurasi's era the UConn offense was more post oriented. In fact, in the 2002 championship game we went 0-9 from three. It's a helluva lot easier to rack up assists if you can feed the perimeter at least as much as the post. 2. UConn's offense is built on versatile players reading and reacting, that is going to spread any statistic around, the previous point I was making. 3. Despite this versatility, for two years Taurasi's backcourt mate was Sue Bird, who went on to become the WNBA assist leader. Indeed, if Bird had not just played 8 games her freshman year she probably would still be UConn's assist leader.

In lieu of assists or a +/- for comparison I offer you one final anecdote to provide clarity for what you seem puzzled about. In Taurasi's junior year she was the only returning starter. Two starters had seen limited action their first two years while the other two were freshman. They only lost one game and won the championship despite that handicap, but it's what happened in one particular game that proves Taurasi's worth. We were down to Tennessee late in the game, I believe by 6 points. As Auriemma tells it he was prepared to now consider the game a learning experience for his young, inexperienced squad. When he started to convey this sentiment during a timeout Taurasi looked at him like he had two heads and huddled up her teammates without him, rallying and convincing them they were going to win the game. She then proceeded to make a three from about 30 feet, along with some other heroics, and UConn won the game.

The past three semifinals were close ones, two lost in the final seconds. You will not find a single UConn fan that thinks we still lose those games if Taurasi was one of the five playing at the end, no matter who you subbed her for, Collier, Samuelson, whomever. More important, there is not a single teammate of Taurasi's through her college and pro career who would doubt her ability to win a game at the end. That is the basis for Taurasi's support.

For the record I think there are too many variables. I think a good argument could be made for Stewart as well as Taurasi, plus I am in no position to compare to someone like Miller from an earlier era.

Great analysis! Not only because I agree with you completely but you describe with exquisite care and example what happens when a GOAT takes charge and leads by example and by modeling.

The bigger the moment the more D stepped up. Not only did she have an indomitable will but as you pointed out she willed her teammates to victory.

I love the story about her looking at Geno in the huddle like he was insane. D shared with other GOATs in other arenas an absolute, utter conviction that she would lead the team to victory. And she carried that conviction to completion.

 

[formerlurker]

Greatest Orindan of All Time? Definitely.

Miramonte High School / Overview

www.acalanes.k12.ca.us

 

[shiverz45]

I think what she does at the next level(WNBA) should factor in where she is placed among the greats.

 

[Floridaduck]

So does this article in your opinion say that miller and Maravich were better players than her cause of the amount of points they accounted for?

I have no opinion on the article. Just threw it out there without comment since it seemed relevant to the current discussion.

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Not without a national championship on her resume'.

 

[Jorislove]

Even as a fan, I would say she's short in the scale of goat.
Amazing player, but the accomplishments are slim compared to other candidates. Now one can argue the other candidates had a better platform start than Sabrina. But at the end of the day people look at what's accomplished.
It's like the Serena debate. Everyone knows she is goat, but she's one shy of that grand slam total numbers, and it will always be used against her in the debate.

 

[Flyinsouth]

Sabrina will still have time to cement a legacy of WNBA Championships and Olympic Golds. I expect her to be an addition to the women’s team this summer (if we even have an Olympics?). I will add, with the coverage she gets, the bullseye is on her and I can’t imagine any player before her would have the pressure and weight of expectation upon her to produce a championship like Sabrina and this Oregon team. If she can succeed this year then for commensurate places in their career she would be worthy of mention among the all time greats!

 

[Zanzman]

I have no opinion on the article. Just threw it out there without comment since it seemed relevant to the current discussion.

To be honest I thought it was an awful article with meaningless comparisons and didn’t help your argument at all. Some of the players don’t belong in the same conversation

 

[azfan]

To be honest I thought it was an awful article with meaningless comparisons and didn’t help your argument at all. Some of the players don’t belong in the same conversation

I was befuddled by the Pistol Pete rebounding comparison.

All the other players mentioned in the article that won multiple championships. Many at Sabrina's age.

The article did leave me wondering with her wonderful skill set and amazing athleticism why Sabrina has not yet let a team to the championship.

This year will be interesting as South Carolina and Baylor loom large. Oregon must with negotiate a challenging PAC tournament and need to avoid an upset to make the final four.

Sabrina does have a amazing future in front of her. I wish her the best and suspect that her game ledet well to the pro game. Having said all that she has a daunting road to be considered among the greats.

Even those mentioned in the ESPN article played at a very high level for many years achieve multiple championships.

Look forward to seeing her play more and more over the years. While Di is the GOAT and will always be the GOAT I look forward to seeing Sabrina's wonderful game and her evolutions over the upcoming years.

 

[sivad40]

Outstanding analysis. Given the current state of women's basketball Sabrina came along at a time with individual performance and accomplishments that might make her one of the most impactful players in women's basketball.

Time is all to paraphrase The Bard. Sabrina came along at a juncture in women's basketball and at a time of events that were ripe for a charismatic superstar to reflect the expansion of the game. Sabrina may very well have the mantle of the most impactful player.

So her impact extends beyond the court in an interesting way her failure to win a title may actually contribute to her impact.

There's something universal about the narrative of a tremendous athlete who is admittedly very well connected to other celebrities in the sport who makes Herculean individual efforts but fails to achieve ultimate success.

That is a story that might perhaps be more impactful the story of the GOAT -Diana Taurasi.

I'm thinking now the discussion in football over the GOAT. There is an amazing narrative around Dan Marino as perhaps a candidates that honor. Tom Terrific the holder of the record that will never be approached for titles seems to have majority support.

The narrative of those other tremendously gifted athletes who fall short captures the imagination.

Appreciate this dimension of the discussion.

Why do some fans and the media say things like these records will never be broken or what we are witnessing, will never happen again?

 

[WestCoast]

Why do some fans and the media say things like these records will never be broken or what we are witnessing, will never happen again?

Lots of reasons why 2k/1k/1k has never happened before and will take a very special player to see it happen again. It has to be in the right high-scoring system with very capable teammates (to finish her assists) with a coach that plays her lots of minutes and gives her the keys to the offense at the beginning of her four years. The player has to be ready to accumulate big numbers from Day #1 of her collegiate career and miss very few (if any) games. The player must be a quality shooter, passer, and rebounder and have enough size and strength to rebound in traffic at times. The player must be able to create shots for herself off the dribble as well as pull the ball in places where she knows her teammates will be able to convert consistently.

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500? I checked on Stewart, Collier, and Taurasi. None of those three UConn greats checked all three boxes of that lower threshold for various reasons. Very difficult to have that many assists in a career unless you are a point guard and very difficult to have that many rebounds in a career unless you are a forward or center.

 

[UConn2SF]

Lots of reasons why 2k/1k/1k has never happened before and will take a very special player to see it happen again. It has to be in the right high-scoring system with very capable teammates (to finish her assists) with a coach that plays her lots of minutes and gives her the keys to the offense at the beginning of her four years. The player has to be ready to accumulate big numbers from Day #1 of her collegiate careers and miss very few (if any) games. The player must be a quality shooter, passer, and rebounder and have enough size and strength to rebound in traffic at times.

Can anyone find anyone else on the women's side who has amassed even 1,500/1,000/500? I checked on Stewart, Collier, and Taurasi. None of those three UConn greats checked all three boxes for various reasons. Very difficult to have that many assists in a career unless you are a point guard and very difficult to have that many rebounds in a career unless you are a forward or center.

The boxes they do check: 1x, 3x, 4x National Champions. They are perfect examples of why you dont measure greatness solely on offensive stats

 

[WestCoast]

The boxes they do check: 2x, 3x, 4x National Champions. They are perfect examples of why you dont measure greatness solely on offensive stats

Very true. But the poster asked why observers have been stating that Ionescu's feats may not be repeated again. There are probably even more compelling reasons why we will likely never see another player be named MOP in the Final Four four times.