Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T? | The Boneyard

Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

  • Yes

    Votes: 18 10.5%

  • No.

    Votes: 132 76.7%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 22 12.8%
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PoppaBear

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Given Sabrina's unique and amazing individual accomplishments, should she be considered the greatest women's college basketball player of all time? Does lacking a national championship hurt her claim to greatness?
 
Tough call. I am willing to be non-committal (maybe) until I see if she can win the Championship and how she performs in those moments. OR may have to face Baylor and SC in the FF and if she pulls it out, I would say yes.
 
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I feel she is rapidly approaching strong consideration to be mentioned along with a select few but this year is still left to be written along with her legacy (we shall see if Oregon wins a title). Keep in mind she had to help elevate a historically irrelevant program and did not have the luxury of joining other great players and teams with championship pedigrees and be able to ride their coattails for a championship or two.
 
Zanzman said:
She would have to carry the team on her back to 2 more championships
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Three is the minimum. That's where DT, Stewie, Holdsclaw really separate themselves. It's the small knock on Catchings and Maya. In women's basketball, where the talent is so top heavy, you have to have these buckles on your belt

And for me it'll always be D. Carrying that crew to 2 championships her Jr Sr year is like nothing I've ever seen since.
 
Today is a more competitive environment than the UConn glory years. More parity and greater spread nationally in talent. NC’s are a measure of team wide talent and level of competition. But whatever...
A better reply to this question might be “No (this person) was because she (did this)”. But it’s okay fandom is about opinion and loyalty. All I know is NO D-1 player has ever done what she has done. So there’s that....
 
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Floridaduck said:
Today is a more competitive environment than the UConn glory years. More parity and greater spread nationally in talent. NC’s are a measure of team wide talent and level of competition. But whatever...
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Eh, in women's basketball one elite player makes all the difference. Just look historically at that truly elite player in WCBB and the associated championships with them. The correlation (really causation) is very very strong. These girls have won:

DT
Stewie
Maya
Holdsclaw
Parker
etc
etc

It's not a mistake that those 5 won 14 of the last 25 championships.
 
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She is a very good player but only 1 Final Four in 3 years is a concern. She's in an elite company maybe of the top 10 along with Griner, Miller and Lieberman that weren't mentioned before. All very, very good but not GOAT. I am surprised people forget Cheryl...
 
DefenseBB said:
She is a very good player but only 1 Final Four in 3 years is a concern. She's in an elite company maybe of the top 10 along with Griner, Miller and Lieberman that weren't mentioned before. All very, very good but not GOAT. I am surprised people forget Cheryl...
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I'm sure she'd be there but most people (including myself) haven't seen her play outside of maybe some youtube clips.

If Sabrina wins a title this year I think she may be in her own sort of middle tier category when looking at best ever. I don't think anyone besides Oregon homers would vote her career as the best ever over the likes of the UCONN/Tennessee greats, but I'd absolutely put her above the next tier that includes players like Seimone Augustus, Tamika Catchings, A'ja Wilson, Alana Beard, the Ogwumikes, etc.

There is something to be said about how she has transformed Oregon's program and made them into a true power this year. Sort of like Skylar Diggins in 2013 or Stephanie White in 1999 but to a different degree, and Sabrina's been a 2x POY, 3x 1st Team All American and NFOY.

Griner or Swoopes might be a better comparison considering how they were clearly the premier player in women's basketball for a season (or seasons) and they won a title. But that's if she wins a title. If she doesn't, she'll be just behind Swoopes/Griner but ahead of the rest of the pack IMO.
 
Flyinsouth said:
I feel she is rapidly approaching strong consideration to be mentioned along with a select few but this year is still left to be written along with her legacy (we shall see if Oregon wins a title). Keep in mind she had to help elevate a historically irrelevant program and did not have the luxury of joining other great players and teams with championship pedigrees and be able to ride their coattails for a championship or two.
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Sab's individual stats put her in the conversation. She does have the "luxury" of playing with two other Top 5 WNBA picks with 6'4" size. Her defense and physical strength have improved. She can pick her spots when to play defense, so she is very good at staying out of foul trouble. The Oregon system has been virtually perfect for her and she has elevated her program to an elite status.

I would definitely put her in the Top 5 most effective women's collegiate players of all time, regardless of whether Oregon brings home the title this year. She has done things statistically that no one has approached.
 
bballnut90 said:
and Sabrina's been a 2x POY, 3x 1st Team All American and NFOY.
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Well she hasn't been that yet. And last year she wasn't the consensus NPOY. She split that with Megan Gustafson. Ionescu picked up Wade (WBCA), and Wooden. While Gustafson picked up Naismith, AP and USBWA.

I imagine she'll sweep them this year though.
bballnut90 said:
but I'd absolutely put her above the next tier that includes players like Seimone Augustus, Tamika Catchings, A'ja Wilson, Alana Beard, the Ogwumikes, etc.

Sort of like Skylar Diggins in 2013 or Stephanie White in 1999 but to a different degree,

Griner or Swoopes might be a better comparison
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Yea, I'd say she' more on those tier(s).
 
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Zanzman said:
She would have to carry the team on her back to 2 more championships
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Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.

My own college WBB Top Player list allowing for different eras: Nancy Lieberman, Ann Meyers, Cheryl Miller, Bev Smith, Sheryl Swopes, Sue Bird, Jackie Stiles, Diana Taurasi, Griner, Catchings...so many others. Nice to see Sabrina even in the discussion with these greats but THERE IS NO ACTUAL GOAT. Come on...

Let's just enjoy the game and the talent displayed.
 
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They say you never forget your first 'love". Around 1978-79, I had heard that Oregon had a pretty good Freshman named Bev Smith so I headed down to Mac Court to check out the team. I was sitting court side with my kids expecting to watch the patterned dribble, dribble shoot kind of action I had seen before.

Early in the game there was a deflection and a ball bouncing toward the sideline. Suddenly this amazing, agile 6'1", 155 lb 18 year old goddess came out of nowhere, grabbed the ball and as she was flying out of bounds, turned in the air and fired a 3/4 court pass to a streaking team mate for the lay in. WHAT was that???

I realized then that this was a whole new ball game and became a WBB fan to this day. Oh and they (she, actually) beat World Champion Russian National Team that year to a sold out Mac Court and finished undefeated regular season. Lost in the post season tournament (pre NCAA days) to the McGee twins (aka "Too Many McGees) of USC

Beverly "Bev" Smith (born April 4, 1960) is a Canadian basketball player and coach.

Smith played college basketball at the Oregon Ducks, where she became an all-American in 1981 and 1982. While playing at Oregon, the team had a record of 93-19. She held school records for points in a game (38), points in a season (632), points in a career (2,063), rebounds in a game (26), rebounds in a season (376), rebounds in a career (1,362), and assists in a career (443)

In 2016, Smith was named to the PAC-12 women's basketball all-century team.

Smith led Canada's national team to a medal in the 1999 Pan American Games.
Smith played in Italian clubs Vicenza (1982-1985, 1989-1990) and Ferrara (1986-1988), winning three Italian championships and two European Cups.

She was the women's basketball program head coach at the Oregon Ducks from 2001 to 2009, having succeeded controversial coach Jody Runge. She posted a regular season game 83-69 record. The 2002 team, won the Women's National Invitation Tournament Championship.

Later she became the assistant coach for the Canadian Women's National Team. Helped lead the team to back-to-back gold medals in 2015 at the Pan American Games in Toronto and the FIBA Americas in Edmonton, qualifying for the 2016 Olympic Games in Rio.

She is a member of the Canadian Basketball Hall of Fame. In 2004, Smith was elected to the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame, located in Knoxville, Tennessee.[2]
 
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No current information would support Ionescu being considered GOAT; though future information may build her case.

A pertinent factor is this perception that there is greater parity in the game. That has been tossed out for at least a decade, since at least before UConn won four championships in a row. Yet the current down cycle for UConn is better than their previous down cycles. Also, HS participation leveled out awhile ago; there is no longer an ever expanding pool as there was in the nineties and into the new millennium. Next year UConn starts to have pieces on the roster that has been missing since their last period of dominance. If they cannot return to dominance with those pieces then perhaps we are witnessing greater parity. If they do return to dominance, with their intervening downturn being more successful then any other, that certainly does not indicate greater parity for the sport.

That background is provided to make sense of the claim that for Ionescu to be considered the GOAT at least one of two, or perhaps both, would have to happen in the future. 1. Her success would have to improve relative to the other heralded players on the roster when they reach the pros, revealing it was due to her greatness that their performance shined as well. 2. Oregon would have to perform less well as they continue on with Graves but with some exceptional talent coming in.

The point being that championships matter, and the parity argument rings hollow with the apparent supporting cast and coach that she has. There are, however, legitimate reasons for a player not having a championship yet being in the GOAT conversation. The most obvious example of this is Larry Bird and Indiana State. Only a player of GOAT status could take such a woefully insufficient roster and coach and even make it to a championship game. However, Graves already built up an impressive resume at Gonzaga, so it is highly doubtful that Ionescu's shortage of championships is due to coaching. On the other hand, her teammates were not that heralded coming out of high school but now they are. That could be due to Graves, a la Rizzotti and Wolters, or that could be due to Ionescu. If more the latter that is a point in her favor as a possible GOAT.

The numbers alone are simply not that important to a GOAT discussion. UConn seldom has players that lead in statistics, yet their subsequent performances in the WNBA, plus the championships won, prove their worth. That is why Ionescu's current greatness as manifested in statistics provides little proof for her GOAT eligibility. She has a shortage of championships and we must look to the future to get a better understanding of why that might be the case.
 
meyers7 said:
Well she hasn't been that yet. And last year she wasn't the consensus NPOY. She split that with Megan Gustafson. Ionescu picked up Wade (WBCA), and Wooden. While Gustafson picked up Naismith, AP and USBWA.

I imagine she'll sweep them this year though.

Yea, I'd say she' more on those tier(s).
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Realistically she's a lock to sweep everything this year, and deservedly so. There really isn't anyone else who comes close to competing with her for the awards IMO.
 
Kaizen said:
Is she better than Kelsey Plum?
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They are such different players. Both are without question the best to ever play at their respective schools, and both had amazing accomplishments during their careers. They also both led their schools to first ever Final 4 berths.
 
diggerfoot said:
She has a shortage of championships
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Three straight Pac-12 Championships is hardly a "shortage". Just no NC along with the vast majority of teams and players that play the game. Larry Bird and Bill Bradley are excellent examples on the men's side of great players who could carry their teams but only so far in the end.
 
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Floridaduck said:
Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.

My own WBB Top Player list allowing for different eras: Nancy Lieberman, Cheryl Miller, Bev Smith, Sue Bird, Diana Taurasi, Griner, Catchings...so many others. Nice to see Sabrina even in the discussion with these greats but THERE IS NO ACTUAL GOAT. Come on...

Let's just enjoy the game and the talent displayed.
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That's all the fun though. Most of us love trying to come up with lists/rankings/etc. Greatest of All Time is usually synonymous with championships. Obviously basketball is a team sport and it's not up to 1 person to win titles, but if you're looking solely at collegiate careers, how well you play when everything is on the line counts. A lot. Jordan won 6 titles, Kobe 5, Lebron 3 but made 9 straight Finals with some very weak teammates. At the end of the day, all of them have won (multiple times) and shined bright on the biggest stage.

If you look at the 5 UCONN/Tennessee players who I think are universally considered 5 of the best collegiate players ever, all won 2-4 titles, were NPOY in 2 seasons and had big showings in crucial NCAA tournament games. All of them won 2 or more Final Four MOP awards except for Maya who won 1, and Maya was a stud at all 4 Final Fours. I don't think there's preset criteria for being the GOAT but the ones who are in commonly considered all have similar resumes.

I think being able to find a way to win against the best, showing up when it matters most, and having skills far greater than your peers gives someone a claim to be in the discussion. Sabrina struggled big time in her 1 Final Four showing last season. If she wins a title while playing well this year, then she does deserve to be in the discussion. The flip side is that posters like myself will point out that other players have been able to shine on the biggest stage in multiple seasons where Sabrina only did 1 year. If she falters or has another poor showing at Tampa, I don't think she can be considered among the best of all time without a title. Most skilled or most talented, yes. But the title of greatest of all time or best collegiate player ever? She needs a title.
 
Floridaduck said:
Three straight Pac-12 Championships is hardly a "shortage". Just no NC along with the vast majority of teams and players that play the game. Larry Bird and Bill Bradley are excellent examples on the men's side of great players who could carry their teams but only so far in the end.
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She has much better teammates than Bird/Bradley did though. She's played 4 years with Ruthy Hebard who is going to be a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft and 3 years with Sabally who may go #2 behind her. She's had an incredibly good supporting cast. Beyond those 2, Cazorla was another 3 year teammate who played in the WNBA, Boley was a former top 5 recruit who she's played 2 years with, etc. This ain't a Jackie Stile situation where she's just throwing her team on her back and single handily winnings games. She has really really good teammates.
 
Floridaduck said:
Sorry. Don't like internet arguments and hope everybody is okay. As I said GOAT is a silly and subjective term. Who is the Men's Goat? Michael Jordan? Kobe Bryant? LeBron James? None of them had the above criteria of "2 or more" NC's. so...silly criteria.
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Talk about silly. We're talking about female College GOATs. You're bringing in 2 male players that never went to college and one that left after Jr year. ????

I can understand why you don't like internet arguments.
 
bballnut90 said:
She has much better teammates than Bird/Bradley did though. She's played 4 years with Ruthy Hebard who is going to be a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft and 3 years with Sabally who may go #2 behind her. She's had an incredibly good supporting cast. Beyond those 2, Cazorla was another 3 year teammate who played in the WNBA, Boley was a former top 5 recruit who she's played 2 years with, etc. This ain't a Jackie Stile situation where she's just throwing her team on her back and single handily winnings games. She has really really good teammates.
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I wasn't really thinking of that in terms of how Ionescu and Plum compare to each other. Sabrina certainly had much more talent around her than Kelsey did. As far as I know Osahor and Walton were the only other Huskies drafted and I'm pretty sure neither ever made a roster.
 
azfan said:
GOAT = DT
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Could AZFan be pandering to the audience?

I am hesitant to anoint Ionescu with that moniker. She may lead her team to two Final Fours and one national title. Or, one Final Four.

If Taurasi had played for Graves in the Oregon system and with Ionescu's teammates, would she have had the internal drive to compile similar stats and take her team even further than Ionescu has?
 
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