Is Sabrina the G.O.A.T?

[formerlurker]

GOATS wear ringS

 

[azfan]

GOATS wear ringS

They wear those rings because they will their team and they lead their team to ultimate victory.

There are many amazing and outstanding players who have great gifts and passion for the game who don't do this.

This does not diminish their greatness.i In Sabrina's case she's a wondrous athlete with passion and skill. But as this poster points out unlike Diana she is not yet willed or let her team to the ultimate victory.

Diana has done this in college, in the pros, and in the Olympics. And she is done it with an unbelievable level of drive determination passion and skill.

In the men's game I think there can be a case made for one of three unbelievable players Michael, Kobe, or Kareem.

In the women's game 1 figure stands above - Diana Taurasi.

 

[Figurehead]

Who makes the best small size best value sedan? Mazda, Toyota, Honda or Nissan. Car and Driver says one thing. Edmunds says another and yet Car Max is different from the other two. So I asked two neighbors and get two different answers again. Then I read the the write ups on each and find out each reviewer emphasizes different aspect of each car to fit his own criteria.

 

[Mulder]

The bona fide G.O.A.T.! ! !
Sheryl Swoopes.

 

[Floridaduck]

Is this the same Diana Taurasi who’s USA team played in Eugene earlier this season? Same Sue Bird? Same Kelsey Plum? Etc. Just asking. Because, if I recall, there was another player on the floor that night who willed her team to to a pretty clear and convincing victory.
Sorry it just seems funny to me to read paeons about how unbeatable, how on another level all these other players were and are when there is a clear head to head comparison that doesn’t get mentioned
No snark here. Just, well, funny... Scoreboard, baby, as the kids say

 

[Zanzman]

Clear comparison when bird and DT are coming back from major surgery

 

[baggerbob]

Is this the same Diana Taurasi who’s USA team played in Eugene earlier this season? Same Sue Bird? Same Kelsey Plum? Etc. Just asking. Because, if I recall, there was another player on the floor that night who willed her team to to a pretty clear and convincing victory.
Sorry it just seems funny to me to read paeons about how unbeatable, how on another level all these other players were and are when there is a clear head to head comparison that doesn’t get mentioned
No snark here. Just, well, funny... Scoreboard, baby, as the kids say

A team without EDD, Stewie and Griner isn't the True National Team. So let's be realistic, and not foolish. Sabrina is a good player, but let's wait a few years, and come back when she joins EDD and Stewie as MVP in the WNBA or World Cup or the Olympics.

 

[npignatjr]

I've had the opportunity to enjoy Diana's body of work, first in college and now with the Mercury. To my eye, no one is close

In my mind along with Serena Williams she isone of the greatest athletes of all time and without peer in WBB.

Sabrina is a supremely talent....with unparalleled individual stats and a motor that rivals Kobe.

As Geno said, we have Di and they don't. And Sabrina, while elite, is no Di.

Even if Sabrina were to surpass the WNBA all time leader in scoring, win more than three WNBA titled, lead her college team to two NCs, win 4 Olympic gold medals....Di would still be the GOAT

She is a senior so no more than 1 possible NCs. D won 2 NCs with no A As besides her on the team, Sabrina has been playing with a couple.

 

[Floridaduck]

A team without EDD, Stewie and Griner isn't the True National Team. So let's be realistic, and not foolish. Sabrina is a good player, but let's wait a few years, and come back when she joins EDD and Stewie as MVP in the WNBA or World Cup or the Olympics.

But, but, but.... I thought the point of all these goat posts was that these goats didn’t need all that help. That they themselves would carry any group to victory. Now DT needs EDD and the like to beat some college team. Well, I guess I was misreading previous posts.

 

[UConnCat]

 

[nwhoopfan]

s this the same Diana Taurasi who’s USA team played in Eugene earlier this season? Same Sue Bird? Same Kelsey Plum? Etc. Just asking. Because, if I recall, there was another player on the floor that night who willed her team to to a pretty clear and convincing victory.

Plum played about 5 minutes that game so let's leave her out of this. She isn't the one that got torched by Ionescu in the 2nd half of that game.

 

[diggerfoot]

Is this the same Diana Taurasi who’s USA team played in Eugene earlier this season? Same Sue Bird? Same Kelsey Plum? Etc. Just asking. Because, if I recall, there was another player on the floor that night who willed her team to to a pretty clear and convincing victory.
Sorry it just seems funny to me to read paeons about how unbeatable, how on another level all these other players were and are when there is a clear head to head comparison that doesn’t get mentioned
No snark here. Just, well, funny... Scoreboard, baby, as the kids say

First, I appreciate you acknowledging the misrepresentation of an earlier post; that's a rare quality. However, I do not believe you fully understand what you are advocating or, at the least, you should be hoping you are wrong. For if Ionescu is really in the GOAT discussion, yet the best she can do while playing with other All-Americans on her team in a P5 conference is perhaps two Final Fours and a Championship, still to be determined, that does not bode well for the future of Oregon. By definition there is only one true GOAT; they are not going to flow through your program like water. If you will only manage one championship at best with the GOAT you will not be winning many of them in the future.

 

[Floridaduck]

I have an idea. Since Sabrina hasn’t even finished her college career maybe the joshing and ludicrous “Goat” title should be limited to college careers only. No WNBA or national team heroics. Under those limitations can Sabrina at least be in the discussion since she just did what NO other player, man or woman, has EVER done in D1 history. Ever. 2K-1K-1K and 26 triple doubles. Is she the greatest scorer in history? No. Rebounder? Most career assists? No and no.
But playing in a very competitive conference (and not a Little Sisters of the Poor conference) she has managed with grit, determination, and talent to do these the two remarkable things.
How about a little more recognition for a truly remarkable all around player and a little less nit picking? Goat this and goat that. Nobody takes it seriously. When Kobe, and Curry and LeBron and the like tweet goat emojis to her, it’s in a joshing manner. We should all take it that way. She does.

 

[Floridaduck]

By definition there is only one true GOAT; they are not going to flow through your program like water. If you will only manage one championship at best with the GOAT you will not be winning many of them in the future.

This is funny. Who knows what the future brings? I plan to enjoy the games whether my favored teams (multiple) finish high or low. It’s just sports not brain surgery as Al McGuire once told me in a bar near Marquette many decades ago.

 

[FridaFriend]

I would like to advance my choice for GOAT: Cheryl Miller. In high school, she averaged 33 points per game and once scored 105 points in one game. At USC, she led her team to two national championships. I watched the 1983 NCAA championship game a few days ago and saw FRESHMAN, Cheryl Miller, lead her USC team with 27 points. She single-handed kept them in the game in the first half and her teammates, Cynthia Cooper and Paula Mcgee, helped in the second half. Cheryl Miller was everywhere on offense and defense. They were facing a Louisiana Tech team, coached by Leon Barmore, that had won 99 of their last 101 games.

I have not seen any other player with her all around skills. When I began watching the game, I thought that I would be disappointed in the skill level in this game of 37 years ago, but I came away thinking that either the LSU or the USC team would have been competitive with any NCAA champion team of recent years.

With a few seconds left in the game, the La. Tech point guard, Kim Mulkey, yes that Kim Mulkey, drove to the basket and Cheryl Miller got in the way, Charge called. USC wins by 2.

 

[Blueballer]

The one that really separates it for me is the year DT won with a cast of role players. Maya and Stewie and all the other players mentioned including Sabrina have full solid teams taking the ride with them. Taurasi not only made all the role players better she made them National Champions. Not even close IMO.

 

[azfan]

I have an idea. Since Sabrina hasn’t even finished her college career maybe the joshing and ludicrous “Goat” title should be limited to college careers only. No WNBA or national team heroics. Under those limitations can Sabrina at least be in the discussion since she just did what NO other player, man or woman, has EVER done in D1 history. Ever. 2K-1K-1K and 26 triple doubles. Is she the greatest scorer in history? No. Rebounder? Most career assists? No and no.
But playing in a very competitive conference (and not a Little Sisters of the Poor conference) she has managed with grit, determination, and talent to do these the two remarkable things.
How about a little more recognition for a truly remarkable all around player and a little less nit picking? Goat this and goat that. Nobody takes it seriously. When Kobe, and Curry and LeBron and the like tweet goat emojis to her, it’s in a joshing manner. We should all take it that way. She does.

Sabrina is a wonderfully talented athlete. Clearly her individual statistics sparkle. In team sports there is one goal - winning. Remember the discussion between Shaq and another outstanding player Charles Barkley and Shaq correctly asked who got the rings. A previous poster made this point.

In no way to denigrate Sabrina who has wonderful individual statistics and achievements. She plays on an elite team. As of yet she has led no team in college to a championship. Her professional career is ahead of her. Her Olympic career is ahead of her. She has a long long long road and a number of tremendous athletes to pass before she would even be considered as in discussions of the GOAT.

She as I previously said has not willed has not lead her team to the ultimate result. Again the reason to play a team sport to win and that is the ultimate measure in evaluation of teams and players.

Di has let her teams to championships at every level. College, pros, the Olympics. So she remains and in my view will always be the GOAT.

Players like Sue Bird, Cheryl Miller, Sheryl Swoopes, Cynthia Cooper, Breanna Stewart, Maya Moore clearly there's a long list of players who have tremendously developed athletic skills leadership abilities and championships.

It's possible that Sabrina one day will join this list. Certainly not based on her college ability to win championships but she has a long and fruitful career ahead of her in the WNBA and internationally. Also the Olympic team. So she may well in the future enter that list of elite athletes the revolve beneath the GOAT Diana Taurasi.

 

[azfan]

Plum played about 5 minutes that game so let's leave her out of this. She isn't the one that got torched by Ionescu in the 2nd half of that game.

Definitely leave Kelsey Plum off this list. She's a wonderful player an outstanding college scorer and an average professional. Like Sabrina has yet to win a title.

 

[jonson]

I agree that Sabrina is not the GOAT of WBB. (DT would be my pick.) Given the media attention she has attracted--and not just from the usual suspects (eg. the current ESPN NCAAW home page), but from outlets like the Washington Post, as well as NBA superstars--a better case could be made for her perhaps unprecedented contribution to the visibility of college WBB in general. As I noted in the Oregon/Stanford thread, the number of TV viewers for last Monday's game dwarfed those for two games on NBA TV and a men's college game on ESPNU. I'd of course like to believe that an important game between two fine teams would draw a good audience in any case, but I think the numbers also testify to what might be called "the Sabrina effect." And, in that, I think she more than holds her own among the greats of the past.

 

[donalddoowop]

She is winning 2+ NCs in one year?

If she does that then she is the GOAT, without question.

 

[Floridaduck]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.

Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.

So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?

 

[Shades]

Kobe got his vote in early.

 

[azfan]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.

Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.

So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?

The poll question and original comment asked if Sabrina was the GOAT This has been an interesting and thoughtful discussion which I think clearly has established she is not.

While many of us are convinced that Di is the GOAT whether you restrict the analysis to one element of basketball college or the entire body of work - you propose a number of other superlative athletes who might wear the mantle.

Those athletes you mention clearly had a more successful college career as measured not by individual statistics by team result than Sabrina.

Let me repeat this is not to diminish Sabrina's amazing accomplishments. To this point in her career they are amazing individual accomplishments that may never be repeated. But this is important - she's never won a title.

Perhaps one could make an argument that the GOAT need not carry their team to championships, that they just need to accumulate a tremendous level of statistics. I'm thinking now of Karl Malone and John Stockton who both had long careers and never won. Also one of my favorite athletes Charles Barkley. I think it would be difficult if not impossible to try to make the cases with these athletes or any other they are entitled to be considered the GOAT without a title. Just my view.

So I do think that you join the consensus that Sabrina is not the GOAT. The question is who is the GOAT.

Individual statistics are only part although an important part of the analysis. Winning the team title or titles is also important. Also the degree of leadership and bringing the team to the ultimate championship needs to be considered. Not all of this can be reduced to statistics.

 

[azfan]

I agree that Sabrina is not the GOAT of WBB. (DT would be my pick.) Given the media attention she has attracted--and not just from the usual suspects (eg. the current ESPN NCAAW home page), but from outlets like the Washington Post, as well as NBA superstars--a better case could be made for her perhaps unprecedented contribution to the visibility of college WBB in general. As I noted in the Oregon/Stanford thread, the number of TV viewers for last Monday's game dwarfed those for two games on NBA TV and a men's college game on ESPNU. I'd of course like to believe that an important game between two fine teams would draw a good audience in any case, but I think the numbers also testify to what might be called "the Sabrina effect." And, in that, I think she more than holds her own among the greats of the past.

Outstanding analysis. Given the current state of women's basketball Sabrina came along at a time with individual performance and accomplishments that might make her one of the most impactful players in women's basketball.

Time is all to paraphrase The Bard. Sabrina came along at a juncture in women's basketball and at a time of events that were ripe for a charismatic superstar to reflect the expansion of the game. Sabrina may very well have the mantle of the most impactful player.

So her impact extends beyond the court in an interesting way her failure to win a title may actually contribute to her impact.

There's something universal about the narrative of a tremendous athlete who is admittedly very well connected to other celebrities in the sport who makes Herculean individual efforts but fails to achieve ultimate success.

That is a story that might perhaps be more impactful the story of the GOAT -Diana Taurasi.

I'm thinking now the discussion in football over the GOAT. There is an amazing narrative around Dan Marino as perhaps a candidates that honor. Tom Terrific the holder of the record that will never be approached for titles seems to have majority support.

The narrative of those other tremendously gifted athletes who fall short captures the imagination.

Appreciate this dimension of the discussion.

 

[Zanzman]

Okay I just went through the NCAA WBB career records list and I am genuinely puzzled by what in Diana Taurasi's (college only) career deserves such unreserved praise besides being a member of two NC teams.

After going through literally hundreds of the Individual Career Scoring names, I finally found her near the bottom at a relatively modest 2156 . Other categories (rebounding, assists, 3 point, anything.)... nope.

Yet multiple posters declare unequivocally that DT is clearly the goat. It can't be just UConn bias because other UConn players dot the record books....some in multiple categories.

UConn players like Maya Moore (3036 career pts), Breanna Stewart (2676),
Tina Charles, Nykesha Sales, and Kerry Bascom were all better scorers.
Tamika Williams leads everyone who ever played in FG pct (70.3). Kaleen Mosqueda-Lewis is at the very top in total 3 pt goals. Sue Bird and Wendy Davis have high 3 pt goal percentages. Nykesha Sales also in the Steals list and Breanna Stewart and Kara Walters in total career blocked shots.

So I must be missing something. I mean I am a DT fan as well. She was a terrific WBB ambassador and motivational speaker on the USA team visit to Eugene. But I don't quite see her college (only) career as clearly superior to any one else who has ever played the game. Career records like Maya Moore's scoring, KML 3 pt record, and the incredible FG% of Tamika Williams must count for something. Right?

3 national championships 2 of them in her back other stats don’t tell her whole story